Mirroring classes? Is this good or bad in your opinion?

Querynautus

So, I've always loved diversity. Firmly been in the camp of people that believe it's okay for opposing factions to have different stuff and not a duplicate of the other side. It works for WoW I suppose, but I much more enjoyed something like Dark Age of Camelot which had 3 realms and while classes had similarity (heavy tanks, assassins, archers, support, light tanks etcetc on all 3 sides) the classes were vastly different and had real flavor.

So my question is what do you all feel about how the admin are mirroring classes? I haven't played Aetolia in absolutely forever and have barely begun reading the forums again, but I'd like to know what you all think, if you don't mind.

Saltz

Mirrors are amazing, not only are they content everyone wants to check out, but also they are incredible foundation for any balancing attempt.

Tetchta

I was a little skeptical of Mirrors when they were first hinted at, but then I thought about it for five minutes and it makes a ton of sense to me. For one thing, Aetolia has a tooooooooooooon of unique classes as a base, and, in retrospect, it's borderline ridiculous that they ever tried to balance the game for its bazillions of years of running without mirroring.

Aetolia has always been structured as a 1v1 sided game; there's internal complexities and tensions (duiran and eno don't perfectly get along, nor do Spines and BL), but overall, with its small population, that's about as deep as the well can be for conflict axes until we triple our playerbase. The way it was set up before was kinda like trying to play Overwatch where one side can only play as the Overwatch characters and the other only as Talon. Mirrors allow the folk upstairs a way to hand everyone all the available tools without disrupting the entire structure of the game's premise and lore. I love it.

On top of it, it also will nearly double the available options people have to explore their character design and roleplay, and the mirrors are, frankly, objectively cooler than the classes they're mirroring. In short, it's an "easy" way to release a flood of "new" classes into the game without making it feel stale. Mirror classes are one of the best ideas this game has ever had, frankly.

Querynautus

I like both these posts.

Thanks for sharing.

Endran

I'm pretty new to Aetolia but the mirror classes seem pretty well done and look like they add a lot to the game setting rather than being just reskinned copies plunked in for the sake of balance. It is also exciting to think about how many options this will add to trying new classes in the future rather than being limited to just what is linked to one tether.

Aeryx

I was in the minority of people who didn't like the idea, because I think there's something to be said for each side having its own unique things. In practice, it's been kind of fun, I suppose. The flavor is different enough to where it doesn't feel as samey as I imagined it would. But then again, I haven't played any of the mirrors personally yet. Still holding out for either Spirit Teradrim or Spirit Praenomen.

Querynautus

Aeryx said:

I was in the minority of people who didn't like the idea, because I think there's something to be said for each side having its own unique things. In practice, it's been kind of fun, I suppose. The flavor is different enough to where it doesn't feel as samey as I imagined it would. But then again, I haven't played any of the mirrors personally yet. Still holding out for either Spirit Teradrim or Spirit Praenomen.

See, that would just turn me off to the game. The entire draw of Aetolia for me has always been the whole... VAMPIRES! shtick. You can't have that on Spirit imo.

Bulrok

They won't be vampires. Earthcaller and Luminary a good examples of how the mechanics will be the same, but the classes flavor won't be alike. Dirges and Rites are the only thing even really remotely similar. The messages and flavor of everything is just *wildly* different. They share mechanics, but they are not the same class. If anyone ever tried to compare the two ICly I think we might all die of awkwardness, because *nothing* links them in flavor. So long as Skill A does X type of damage and delivers Y affliction at Z balance/equilibrium time, the flavor message can read as anything.

Tetchta

Since almost the flavor comes from text, it's really easy to make things divergent as hell. Mirror Frenzy could just as easily be "He opens his mouth and a bunch of tiny flies zip out of his throat and slap you in the face."

Razmael

Tetchta said:

Since almost the flavor comes from text, it's really easy to make things divergent as hell. Mirror Frenzy could just as easily be "He opens his mouth and a bunch of tiny flies zip out of his throat and slap you in the face."

I see this misconception a lot and I want to take the time to clear it up, because I think it sets up unrealistic expectations for mirrors.

While yes, the mirror version of an ability just needs to perform the exact same mechanics, it also needs to be conceptually similar.

For a very common example, a skill that is described as using voice originally is going to probably need to use voice in its mirror too. There exists a number of afflictions that impede speech for example. It also ensures we leave ourselves room for future changes that introduce new mechanics along a similar vein of thought. As another example, an ability that is described as being magical in nature won't have its mirror counterpart be described as physical.

These aren't hard rules, and we most definitely haven't followed them for every single mirrored ability, but we try to keep it in mind to save ourselves future headaches later on down the road.

To pull apart the mirror Frenzy idea (I know it wasn't a real suggestion, but it serves for illustration purposes), this wouldn't work for a couple of reasons.
(1) It's vaguely magical in nature, while Frenzy is a brute-sourced attack (drawing from your STR stat). Also makes it harder for us to introduce new things that might counter it in the future, if there's a balancing reason to do so. For a kind of bad example, Frenzy might be too strong and we decide to introduce a noodle_arms affliction that reduces its damage, which again isn't going to make sense.
(2) The handtohand_damage artifact affects Frenzy.
(3) Along the same thought, a broken arm stops Frenzy so mouth flies won't make sense there.

Seurimas

I shall forever mourn the loss of Aetolia's asymmetrical nature, but the positives outweigh the negatives by a big margin. Everyone gets new toys for cheap (in terms of admin/volunteer effort, compared to a full new class or system). There'll be less griping about tether balance (not none, never none, we can be honest here). Guilds are getting breaths of fresh air (in the form of whole new RP/lore to explore).

It's hard to look at all the positives and call mirror classes "bad". The worst that could happen would be mirror class newbies feeling like they were screwed out of a real class by picking a poorly done mirror. Mirrors so far have been pretty expertly done, though.

Drayne

So, did you guys ever make those mirror classes? I popped in but can't easily tell which class mirrors which, such as with the Bards. If anyone wants to provide a list that would be appreciated.

I personally was also a fan of the asymmetry and a critic of what the majority thinks will work from a perspective that is usually informed by a desire to win but that's all water under the bridge by now.
At the same time, being able to play whatever class I want while still being on the side I want to be on (last time I was here, it seemed like spirit needed more people, I have no idea if that's still true) does have an appeal to it. This would be enhanced if they successfully changed up the flavor and utility skills like some people were saying would be tried.

For example, I always thought a bloodborn class with "good" rituals would be cool.

Edit: Also, how did they handle stuff like spirit side having to feed off of corpses?

naadu

I like it.

Alela

naadu said:

I like it.

wrong, they should've deleted classes until none were left

Eliadon

Drayne said:

So, did you guys ever make those mirror classes? I popped in but can't easily tell which class mirrors which, such as with the Bards. If anyone wants to provide a list that would be appreciated.

I personally was also a fan of the asymmetry and a critic of what the majority thinks will work from a perspective that is usually informed by a desire to win but that's all water under the bridge by now.
At the same time, being able to play whatever class I want while still being on the side I want to be on (last time I was here, it seemed like spirit needed more people, I have no idea if that's still true) does have an appeal to it. This would be enhanced if they successfully changed up the flavor and utility skills like some people were saying would be tried.

For example, I always thought a bloodborn class with "good" rituals would be cool.

Edit: Also, how did they handle stuff like spirit side having to feed off of corpses?

Templar - Revenant
Carnifex - Warden
Indorani - Oneiromancer
Luminary - Earthcaller

Drayne

Eliadon said:

Drayne said:

So, did you guys ever make those mirror classes? I popped in but can't easily tell which class mirrors which, such as with the Bards. If anyone wants to provide a list that would be appreciated.

I personally was also a fan of the asymmetry and a critic of what the majority thinks will work from a perspective that is usually informed by a desire to win but that's all water under the bridge by now.
At the same time, being able to play whatever class I want while still being on the side I want to be on (last time I was here, it seemed like spirit needed more people, I have no idea if that's still true) does have an appeal to it. This would be enhanced if they successfully changed up the flavor and utility skills like some people were saying would be tried.

For example, I always thought a bloodborn class with "good" rituals would be cool.

Edit: Also, how did they handle stuff like spirit side having to feed off of corpses?

Templar - Revenant
Carnifex - Warden
Indorani - Oneiromancer
Luminary - Earthcaller

Thanks. So I take from this that two things:

1) There's no spirit equivalents of the vampire classes, either yet or permanently.
2) If it's permanent, does spirit have anything unique?
3) No spirit Teradrim? Are they still a class?
4) What about the utility skills?

Akrios

Drayne said:

Eliadon said:

Drayne said:

So, did you guys ever make those mirror classes? I popped in but can't easily tell which class mirrors which, such as with the Bards. If anyone wants to provide a list that would be appreciated.

I personally was also a fan of the asymmetry and a critic of what the majority thinks will work from a perspective that is usually informed by a desire to win but that's all water under the bridge by now.
At the same time, being able to play whatever class I want while still being on the side I want to be on (last time I was here, it seemed like spirit needed more people, I have no idea if that's still true) does have an appeal to it. This would be enhanced if they successfully changed up the flavor and utility skills like some people were saying would be tried.

For example, I always thought a bloodborn class with "good" rituals would be cool.

Edit: Also, how did they handle stuff like spirit side having to feed off of corpses?

Templar - Revenant
Carnifex - Warden
Indorani - Oneiromancer
Luminary - Earthcaller

Thanks. So I take from this that two things:

1) There's no spirit equivalents of the vampire classes, either yet or permanently.
2) If it's permanent, does spirit have anything unique?
3) No spirit Teradrim? Are they still a class?
4) What about the utility skills?

Shaman and Teradrim are the upcoming mirror classes. Should be ready soon-ish.

Bulrok

All the classes will be mirrored, but it's a work in progress.

Eliadon

2) Not sure what you mean by this. The entire point is that eventually all classes will be mirrored - what are you looking for in terms of 'uniqueness'?
4) Again not sure what you're looking for here. If this is re: your earlier question on thematics, like 'eating corpses', it's styled in a way that makes sense for the theme. Oneiromancer, for example, uses 'haruspicy' with the organs to build up their ability to 'impact fate' instead of eating them for essence. If it's about things like the rite of prayer, the classes have something thematic that also fits. Apocalpytia, for example, has 'Dogma'


Dogma (Apocalyptia) Known: No (1035 lessons required)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syntax: DIRGE VERSE OF DOGMA
The Dirge began at the dawn and transcends time. At the sunrise, you may recount the dogmatic verses, granting experience to all who attend and blessing them with restored fervour.
Larger audiences to behold the glory of earth shall convey correspondingly larger amounts of experience and renewed fervour.
Should you proclaim the dogmatic verses before one of the five great monoliths, you will be blessed with an ongoing bonus to experience and increased celerity.

Drayne

Eliadon said:

2) Not sure what you mean by this. The entire point is that eventually all classes will be mirrored - what are you looking for in terms of 'uniqueness'?
4) Again not sure what you're looking for here. If this is re: your earlier question on thematics, like 'eating corpses', it's styled in a way that makes sense for the theme. Oneiromancer, for example, uses 'haruspicy' with the organs to build up their ability to 'impact fate' instead of eating them for essence. If it's about things like the rite of prayer, the classes have something thematic that also fits. Apocalpytia, for example, has 'Dogma'


Dogma (Apocalyptia) Known: No (1035 lessons required)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syntax: DIRGE VERSE OF DOGMA
The Dirge began at the dawn and transcends time. At the sunrise, you may recount the dogmatic verses, granting experience to all who attend and blessing them with restored fervour.
Larger audiences to behold the glory of earth shall convey correspondingly larger amounts of experience and renewed fervour.
Should you proclaim the dogmatic verses before one of the five great monoliths, you will be blessed with an ongoing bonus to experience and increased celerity.

Well, the flavor text is fine but the utility skills being different could in theory have made the classes "feel" like different classes while still pleasing the "everything must be exactly the same" group PvP crowd.

This is actually a pretty good example. How would it mess anything up if the rite of dawn clone was done at nightfall, or midnight, or even was replaced with something else entirely? It's not a combat skill anyway. And why would an "Oneiromancer" use organs at all if the organs aren't really impacting the PvP process? At this point I don't feel impressed by the way these have been implemented.

Another possibility might have been to "shuffle" utility skills through different classes, so that each side has more or less the same stuff but the individual classes are still different.

Iazamat

The reason for making them the same is so that they're future-proofed, making it easier to make changes to both the base class and the mirror without needing to account for things like what you're suggesting. They're intended to be thematically different, not mechanically different, and that includes utility/RP skills.

You're welcome to not feel impressed, but given the reception to mirror classes and the frequency at which we see them, I'd say that the vast majority of the game absolutely enjoys and loves them. The fact that you haven't actually logged in and learned these things for yourself and needed the exact details spelled out for you tells me that it didn't really matter how it was implemented anyway, you would have found something to kvetch about.

Tetchta

this is a bad thread

Bulrok

I can't help but think this is just people being mad at sharing their skills with the other side of the game. The best argument anyone could have had was the asymmetric one but even that fell short. There's not enough people willing to dump enough money to insure that every class has equal representation in group fights, sect meant you'd fight allies as much as enemies to begin with, and people are going to play what they want regardless of the meta anyways.

Drayne

Anyone remember rogues? Instead of having tons of new guilds I think it would might have been cool to institutionalise rogues with new flavor texts or something. I remember reading something about changing the mirror classes' utility skills but it doesn't appear that such a thing happened, which arguably defeats the point of having more institutions.

Jhura

Eliadon said:

2) Not sure what you mean by this. The entire point is that eventually all classes will be mirrored - what are you looking for in terms of 'uniqueness'?
4) Again not sure what you're looking for here. If this is re: your earlier question on thematics, like 'eating corpses', it's styled in a way that makes sense for the theme. Oneiromancer, for example, uses 'haruspicy' with the organs to build up their ability to 'impact fate' instead of eating them for essence. If it's about things like the rite of prayer, the classes have something thematic that also fits. Apocalpytia, for example, has 'Dogma'


Dogma (Apocalyptia) Known: No (1035 lessons required)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Syntax: DIRGE VERSE OF DOGMA
The Dirge began at the dawn and transcends time. At the sunrise, you may recount the dogmatic verses, granting experience to all who attend and blessing them with restored fervour.
Larger audiences to behold the glory of earth shall convey correspondingly larger amounts of experience and renewed fervour.
Should you proclaim the dogmatic verses before one of the five great monoliths, you will be blessed with an ongoing bonus to experience and increased celerity.

Just seeing this so I'm a bit late, but actually Oneiromancers extract memories from corpses and assimilate them to be able to impact fate.

As for introducing new guilds, that isn't happening. The mirror classes are being introduced into the current guilds. Earthcaller, for example, is part of the Teradrim guild. Tidesage - the recently released Teradrim mirror - is part of the Ascendril guild.

Eliadon

Drayne said:

Anyone remember rogues? Instead of having tons of new guilds I think it would might have been cool to institutionalise rogues with new flavor texts or something. I remember reading something about changing the mirror classes' utility skills but it doesn't appear that such a thing happened, which arguably defeats the point of having more institutions.

There aren't any new institutions or guilds, the mirrors are each being added to an existing guild where the theme makes sense - other than Oneiromamcer, as the Indorani also have no guild.

Tetchta

please let this topic die, I'm begging you

Bulrok

No

Iazamat

At the very least, stop engaging the bad faith poster who has clearly not played the game since before mirrors were announced.