Limitate the Mutate (in arena/sect)

Saidenn

So this idea has been rolling around in my head for a while and I wanted to put it somewhere public to get feedback!

Once you enter any arena event or a sect duel, you cannot class change (i.e. CLASS CHANGE ). You pick the class in which you wish to compete and you are with that class until the end of the event or duel.

However, due to it being a subrace rather than a class, you are able to MUTATE into a shifter form. This feels disingenuous to the limitation of class changing as, while it is a subrace, it does change the individual's active class skills to something new, therefore effectively giving the competitor the ability to pick between two classes for their particular spar/duel/event.

In this, things should be consistent across the board, I feel, and while we have all been in a position when we've jumped into an event/duel/sect against a class we do not want to fight (looking at you @Dourif with our Archie vs Archie), it is the risk that should be assumed when entering events, rather than being able to have a 'fallback' or 'choice'.

Now, the primary argument against this I can create is:

"Everyone has equal access to the ability to Mutate (if they choose the subrace or invest in the class) therefore it is not imbalanced".

While, true, everyone DOES have access, as mentioned above, it goes against the SPIRIT of the event, in that, you are entering as the class of your choosing. Singular, not plural. This feels like a case of, "This is not a bug so therefore it is a feature" kind of things.

We could also discuss that not all choose to have access to Shifter for roleplay reasons (not EVERY player in Aetolia chooses to make their character a Shifter?!), but at the end of the day, if you cannot class change in events/sect, being able to mutate and, effectively, change class, feels like a loophole.

Discuss!

Ardent

My thoughts on this are simple. If you go in with a class and it isn't a good match up to your opponent and all you do is run and mutate until you can run back in with a class better suited for the engagement you're given an advantage over being able to run limbs or afflictions, no matter what you do. If you're losing as Lumi or Shaman and swap to shifter because it's a better match up for your opponent then you've just given yourself an edge that your opponent may or may not have.

TLDR: Limit mutating in sect/arena mid engagement because it completely changes the dynamic of the fight and the pacing in such a way that it gives one side an advantage over the other for every thing Saidenn already listed about not everyone taking/investing in shifter.

Sryaen

I really don't think it's a huge issue being able to mutate in the arena/sect. My shifter isn't great, I only really use it for lessers or quartering so it's not really an ace in the hole for me if I start to get behind in my other class. But I think that if I've sunk 900cr into a subclass, I should be able to use it whenever. I don't really see this as super game-breaking, but I'm open to the discussion as to why this should be limited. I see it as more a way to change up your route - like if affs aren't working as Syssin, and you think you can give it a go as Shifter - hey, by all means. Maybe just add an area echo that if you shift, it sends a message across the arena that "A bestial howl breaks the silence as embodies their feral side" or somethin like that. That way it gives a heads up to the other fighter that 1) they need to change their cureset and 2) this person might be MORE vulnerable for the next 30 seconds because they're setting up howls.

Saltz

My argument against the limit is this, there are classes in this game that already have access to reliable limb and aff routes in them, Wayfarer being a top example. And they can use whichever depending on their matchup, why is it wrong for other classes to have an access to that choice through mutate?

edit: I never used Shifter in Sect, but I fought against others mutating through the duel and I think it's a refreshing thing to deal with.

Saidenn

The other option, then, is lifting the limit to change class altogether, so long as you do not have a class on cooldown. Or, really, being able to change (unlimited) between the classes I have within the Sect/event.

I have sunk more than 900cr into most of my classes, but currently, I can't change between them willy-nilly to fit the class I am fighting against. I should be able to pick any class I want without penalty in the arena/sect until I find one that works.

Eliadon

If they mutate, just mutate as well.

Then neither of you will ever kill the other because hardening is fun.

Elene

I haven't really been Secting lately, but I feel like even if Shifter is a "subclass", it is still a class that you can viably fight in and has the same skill cost to tri-trans. Why treat it any differently?

You shouldn't be able to mutate in between Sect fights, or at least, it should be affected with the "you have been too aggressive for the past 9 minutes to be able to mutate" thing, just to keep things fair.

Rhyot

Sryaen said:

My shifter isn't great, I only really use it for lessers or quartering so it's not really an ace in the hole for me if I start to get behind in my other class. But I think that if I've sunk 900cr into a subclass, I should be able to use it whenever.

By that logic, since my Chaos Lord isn't that great and it's only real use is for lessers or being a general tank, I think that if I've sunk 5000+ credits into a subclass (and countless hours bashing), I should be able to viably PK in it. I mean, if that's the stance you're willing to die on, then get everyone together to petition K and T to give back original Chaos Lord damage/abilities. 

Saltz said:

My argument against the limit is this, there are classes in this game that already have access to reliable limb and aff routes in them.

You mean like Templar, Revenant, Carnifex, and Lumi? Classes you can't shift out of unless you specifically have Shapeshifter?

That's kind of the cut of the land though, isn't it? Some classes can do some things others can't. You roll with what you get. You want to fight as Shapeshifter, then SECT ACCEPT as Shapeshifter.  



I'm with Saidenn, Ardent and Elene though, switching to Shifter mid-fight is in complete contrast to the spirit of a good fight. 

Whatever class you're in when you hit SECT ACCEPT is the class you fight in. That's the risk you take when you fight in Sect. You fight with what you're active in.

Quite frankly, in my opinion... the fact that anyone would defend being able to mutate mid-fight speaks more to the mindset of people rather than the spirit of PVP itself. 

Saltz

Quite frankly, in my opinion... the fact that anyone would defend being able to mutate mid-fight speaks more to the mindset of people rather than the spirit of PVP itself.

I get that you are trying to insult me for advocating it, but I struggle to see how calling people out on their adaptive mindsets is an insult when it comes to combat. That's what combat is all about.

You build a wall, I bring a ram and so forth.

Sryaen

By that logic, since my Chaos Lord isn't that great and it's only real use is for lessers or being a general tank, I think that if I've sunk 5000+ credits into a subclass (and countless hours bashing), I should be able to viably PK in it. I mean, if that's the stance you're willing to die on, then get everyone together to petition K and T to give back original Chaos Lord damage/abilities.

I mean, if it's a subclass who really cares? I don't think there's anything wrong with shifting solely to and from shifter in the arena. This thread really makes it seem like there's an overwhelming surplus of active Shifter fighters out there. I only know of Iadra, Oriana, maybe Mileta, Araseth, Benedicto. You take the risk of being caught mid-def if you switch, and honestly if you're in sect and you can't adapt to a changing situation, then maybe you shouldn't be there.

Quite frankly, in my opinion... the fact that anyone would defend being able to mutate mid-fight speaks more to the mindset of people rather than the spirit of PVP itself.

People are allowed to have different opinions, sweetie. Just because you've sunk "5000+ credits" into something or countless hours bashing doesn't make yours any more valid than mine.

Ardent

The point, as far as I'm aware, was brought because you -could- shift. Not even if people did. The ability to swap classes mid fight without any sort of aggro timer like every other class that completely changes your skills is a little confusing, to me at least. With how many different things there are to stop class swapping based on aggression why should Shifter be different? And yes, I'm aware it's going to be argued "It's a sub-race not a class."

Saltz

Alternatively you could also ask for a mutation_sickness review, which I believe is in place to give the opponent an edge in these instances. A window to be punished. If it's too forgiving, that could be easily adjusted with a longer timer and even worse maluses.

Sryaen

Ardent said:

The point, as far as I'm aware, was brought because you -could- shift. Not even if people did. The ability to swap classes mid fight without any sort of aggro timer like every other class that completely changes your skills is a little confusing, to me at least. With how many different things there are to stop class swapping based on aggression why should Shifter be different? And yes, I'm aware it's going to be argued "It's a sub-race not a class."

Unfortunately, shifter has been like that out of the arena too. While you can't switch non-subclasses due to the 9 min aggro timer, you've always been able to do shifter no matter what. So I think if you're going to impose a restriction in sect, then you ought to change it out of arena as well. Personally, I like the idea of having my main class and if something goes bad and I need to switch it up on the fly, I have shifter in my back pocket. And it doesn't bother me whatsoever that other people also have this option. Regardless of whether or not this is changed at all, it really won't affect me. But I guess I don't mind the ability to take an alternate route in Sect/arena if the one you're going for isn't working. However, I can see the viewpoint of "Well if you're going to allow one subclass, why not just remove aggro timer and allow switching of all classes at any time?" And that's a great question, one that I really don't have an answer for other than "Why not?"

Illikaal

I think a largely non issue is being complained about here. Sure, you can switch to other classes in sect. But class switching doesn't give you mutation sickness, which is the literal reason it exists. If someone is mutating on you in sect, that's more than enough time for a full fight reset, favoring the person who didn't mutate because you can probably reset faster than their mutation sickness wears off, and their roars get going. It sounds like the real complaint here is rooted in being able to beat X class but not shifter. If you're blaming the fact you lost a sect match because someone shifted mid fight, I promise you the problem isn't the shifter. 

I don't think people that don't participate in PK on any meaningful level while simultaneously whining about it should be throwing around their opinions on combat like they're valid quite frankly, in my opinion. 

Ardent

Okay. Ten minutes of mutation sickness then. Sounds fair. Covers the aggro timer and makes it a sure thing you have to be sure you want to do that. I'm fine with this change. Entirely. Full support. Lets look at Mutation_sickness and give it a 10 minute timer, and lock the skills at adept so you have to wait for the sickness to fade to be useful.

Saidenn

Illidan said:

I think a largely non issue is being complained about here. Sure, you can switch to other classes in sect. But class switching doesn't give you mutation sickness, which is the literal reason it exists. If someone is mutating on you in sect, that's more than enough time for a full fight reset, favoring the person who didn't mutate because you can probably reset faster than their mutation sickness wears off, and their roars get going. It sounds like the real complaint here is rooted in being able to beat X class but not shifter. If you're blaming the fact you lost a sect match because someone shifted mid fight, I promise you the problem isn't the shifter. 

I don't think people that don't participate in PK on any meaningful level while simultaneously whining about it should he throwing around their opinions on combat like they're valid quite frankly, in my opinion. 

Consistency. Let me quote myself:

In this, things should be consistent across the board, I feel, and while we have all been in a position when we've jumped into an event/duel/sect against a class we do not want to fight (looking at you @Dourif with our Archie vs Archie), it is the risk that should be assumed when entering events, rather than being able to have a 'fallback' or 'choice'.

It is unfortunate that a discussion started on the basis of consistency is immediately translated into whining. Let me, though, address the point against mutation sickness easy.

Running. When someone wants to run there is nothing anyone can do to stop running and keep momentum. Lure takes balance. Beckon takes equilibrium. Engage/circle is a knock but doesn't stop running. Mutation sickness can be ran against. If someone just stands there, sure, you can use it to your advantage, but straight damage is not going to work either as damage is a percentile thing on its own. And you would have to know the mutation happened to not go in with your usual offense to take advantage of it. Until... they just walk away immediately. Either when you strip shield or do anything else to start your offense. 

For me, it is about consistency. And about the spirit of a formal duel or a formal event. I am more about the spirit of the competition then "winning at all costs". I know not all see it that way.

Sryaen

Take away ability to mutate entirely. You are whatever class you enter the arena in. However, the tradeoff is we add battle hunger to Sect duels.

Saltz

Running. When someone wants to run there is nothing anyone can do to stop running and keep momentum.

If it's too forgiving, that could be easily adjusted with a longer timer and even worse maluses.

Worse maluses being:
Lowered celerity, slight movement delay, dropping cloak and making them unable to put it back up, etc. You also have time to work with the area to wall up.