Anonymous Discussions

Ayastia

I would like to preface this by saying I am very hopeful that it is something that can be used to expand rp circles. And the premise is very neat. That said, I do have some concerns that I would like to voice, and hopefully they be answered. 

It really isn't feasible to have someone online to monitor every discussion at all hours. So what is stopping people from claiming to be someone else and doing stuff to ruin reputation/cause problems. I could go in, claim I'm Rhyot for example, and just badmouth the entirety of Bloodlochs Overlords just to stir trouble. It seems the only thing stopping this is trust. 

Now we get into the more adult things. What is stopping this from becoming a very... adult, dark thing. It says characters won't act ooc. But if you can't prove the character, how can you say if it's ooc or not? And even if you figure out, how do you prove who it is you dealt with? I am guessing there is an option to just up and leave the room if it goes a way you don't like, but what about people trying to start a prostitution ring. Pimp comes in. Gives names of some people. Gold is transferred. It adds to a seedy underground dynamic but... anyways. 

Again, I like the concept, but the anonymity kinda worries me. And I do get the reason behind it from an RP standpoint. And really, these are just a couple things that have come to mind. Again, I'm really really hopeful that the players can be trusted and none of this happen but we have all seen how quickly things can go awry. 

Seurimas

Could someone get away with something? Maybe. Who knows if an admin is online. Even then I assume logs exist and an admin could pull up your issue, peek at some logs and go, "Yup, Jumpy was the other party and that wasn't okay".

Lin

1) Touch the stone to leave immediately. 

2) File an issue claiming that you just ran into some very sketchy stuff in an anonymous session. I have zero doubt they can discern who you matched up with. 

3) Have a little faith! We have some bad apples but we're hardly the sketchy game where one wrong turn and you're in some kind of abuse scenario. 

4) That was Midkemia.

Ayastia

Lin said:

1) Touch the stone to leave immediately. 

2) File an issue claiming that you just ran into some very sketchy stuff in an anonymous session. I have zero doubt they can discern who you matched up with. 

3) Have a little faith! We have some bad apples but we're hardly the sketchy game where one wrong turn and you're in some kind of abuse scenario. 

4) That was Midkemia.

To be honest the abuse was the least of my concerns. I assumed there was a way to just hop out. I point back to 'Yeah I'm Eoros. Fuck the Templars they have been so shifty lately. Not at all like I remember'. More subtle of course but... with decent enough writing variety one can pull it off with no suspicion. And a little faith? During the curse, people were at each other's throats over using code names. Something I won't take either side on. Anonymity goes a long way to bringing out the worst in people. I dunno. I am naturally suspicious of people and tend to see the worst. I know that colors my views on things like this. 

Haven

Easiest solution: Don't participate.

Pretending to be someone and bad-mouthing their org or whatever doesn't seem like a sound plan. If anything it'd likely be as effective as Syssin forgery.

If you do participate, @Lin's provided excellent options to deal with any seedy situation.

Ayastia

Haven said:

Easiest solution: Don't participate. Pretending to be someone and bad-mouthing their org or whatever doesn't seem like a sound plan. If anything it'd likely be as effective as Syssin forgery. If you do participate, @Lin's provided excellent options to deal with any seedy situation.

As I said, I do see the benefits. I am likely to give it a try just to expand my circle of RP. And you have no idea how much I hope that's the end of it, that's what it will be used for, and my fears are misplaced. And yeah, I get the specific examples I gave won't be very successful. But they were meant to be obvious. It's a completely different thing when it's 'I met so and so in an anonymous talk. And boy did they badmouth you.' Or how much easier it would be to fake logs for evidence. Like I said. Perhaps my pessimism is causing me to see non issues but we all know how toxic this community can be. Look at the Hawa situation for example. Or Bamathis. Or any other number of people being driven away because IC doesn't stay IC. 

As for what Lin said:
Yes, you can issue yourself if something sketchy happens. But given the amount of issues put out for harassers where nothing has happened? Well, I wouldn't hold my breath. Especially since if you don't know who it is, how would you know if they were punished or not?

Rhyot

I'm going to go out and say point blank that I do NOTtrust the playerbase -AT ALL- with this sort of anonymity type of RP. No one.


Like Ayastia said, it is not feasible for admins to be online at all times of the day to monitor these RP environments. Furthermore, if someone wants to really slander, damage, or cause extreme drama for someone, they'd have studied the way that person interacts with others. Let's take Rhyot for example. Everyone knows that he uses 'Mmm' a lot in in his sentences, does not utilize vulgar language, and is more often than not either very short or very abrupt with what he has to say. If someone wanted to damage his reputation, they could go in and act like Rhyot, spout off nonsensical bullshit and then walk away. This leaves the other person to strongly believe that they were interacting with Rhyot even though the admission was never made and then disseminate what was spoken about in these RP rooms. These logs could then be drafted into a letter and mailed to individuals that would be able to take action against Rhyot and see the entire character destroyed. Due to the fact that it's anonymous, no one would believe that he didn't participate in this and I would have to file an issue about defamation of character and harassment, but it wouldn't do anything because the damage has already been done. What's Alecto going to do? Spout off to a couple people "This assumed interaction between Rhyot and X never occurred and you will forget it from your mind and never use it ICly." Yeah, ok. Because that's going to do anything except make me (as a player) look like anything more than a whiny bitch and people are going to dismiss it anyway, effectively reaching the goal of the subversive, destructive person anyway.


In no manner do I feel that the playerbase can respectfully utilize an anonymous RP directive without abusing it in some capacity or another by a good amount of players.

Tetchta

If something untoward or against the rules happens, ISSUE yourself. They'll look into it. I agree there's some potential for abuse, but some of the things you mentioned are explicitly against the rules, and if someone does them, they can and should get in trouble if you issue yourself with details, some of these things shouldn't be a problem. I've not experienced the dearth of unanswered harassment issues you're mentioning--usually when there's an explicit rule break, someone does get a punishment.

But honestly if you want to level a critique at how issues are handled, it really seems like it might be best to make that its own thread to talk about, because it's an important thing to talk about, and shouldn't be nested as a subcriticism of another topic.

Mythunnar

So I have concerns, this is anonymous right, what is to say afterwards someone does not say some random person sexually assaulted them in this place? Which would start spreading rumors and cause backlash in the community, there is already a lot of drama happening in game. Just because it is anonymous does not mean people that have a vendetta against someone will not use it for their own devious purposes. Or since it is anonymous what if someone takes advantage of another player in there and does commit sexual assault, rping to their own vices despite protests from the other party. I do not know, this does not sound like a very good mechanic and I think it should be rethought through. It just seems like a great way to slander someone's good name.

Tetchta

Mythunnar said:

So I have concerns, this is anonymous right, what is to say afterwards someone does not say some random person sexually assaulted them in this place?

I feel like it needs to be said that false sexual assault allegations, as RP or not, need to go the way of the Dodo in Aetolia. It's not useful RP, and has a number of unpleasant OOC implications. If someone does this, issue yourself immediately (and the person) with details, because I honestly think it's considered borderline against the rules (I've heard of many people issuing over this and winning). It's very highly frowned upon.

Ayastia

The issue critiques have already been discussed at length. It is not what this topic is about, though it does play a part. Simple fact is if it was about issues, I would have had a lot more to say. And yes. Sometimes your issues see results. But we can take one player for example. One you yourself had problems with. Frivolous issues all the time. Was even issued about it. Something clearly against the rules. And nothing ever happened to them until they broke another rule that had something to do with alts or something no don't know the exact details of what caused her temporary ban. 

Tetchta

This thread could use some concrete examples of these bad faith things actually happening. Otherwise it just seems like panicking over nothing to me. Most of the things people are acting concerned about are explicitly against the rules. The system is entirely voluntary, there's a bunch of checks in place, and everything in the game is logged.

Rhyot

@Tetchta You're right. It is voluntary. But it can be used to abuse and cause drama for other players by -acting- like another player. I absolutely expect some of the playerbase to abuse this to further their own agendas, goals, or just to grief people they don't like out of the game for no other reason than they like to stir shit.

Tetchta

Rhyot said:

@Tetchta You're right. It is voluntary. But it can be used to abuse and cause drama for other players by -acting- like another player. I absolutely expect some of the playerbase to abuse this to further their own agendas, goals, or just to grief people they don't like out of the game for no other reason than they like to stir unicorns.

That sounds awesome and a great avenue for RP and conflict to me!

Ayastia

You can't say something is voluntary and then call it awesome rp when people who opt out are effected. That was my same issue with the curse. But beyond that you want concrete examples. 

Oriana was known for frivolous issues. Clearly against the rules. Issued over it multiple times by different people. Nothing was done until there was a case of seconds abuse. 

Eydis and Zynti have been known to harass people and issued over it. Nothing done. 

Tetchta

Ayastia said:

You can't say something is voluntary and then call it awesome rp when people who opt out are effected. That was my same issue with the curse. But beyond that you want concrete examples. 

Yeah I can. Someone can make a Syssin, forge a bunch of letters, write stuff about your character, and mail them across the continent. You can't control everything people say about your character, and by logging into the game you're opting-into being in a world that's bigger than just your character. People can phase, mindlock, and do all sorts of stuff. If you're concerned about being in a room with an anonymous person, though, THAT is voluntary.

I'm not going to comment on the rest because that seems like unhelpful drama, and I was talking about concrete examples of THIS specific new system being a problem, not, just, general gripes about issue enforcements you don't agree with.

Illikaal

I believe it was mentioned that there is a command that you can use to prove who you are via a mechanical server-side report. So in the event someone claims to be someone, you can just say "prove it", and if they refuse, simply assume it's not that person.

Ayastia

You wanted specific examples. I tried keeping it nameless but you basically pushed for more info. So you got it. 

And I see where you are coming from with that argument and there is logic there. But when you have a system ripe for abuse, to call it voluntary and then say those who choose not to partake can get awesome rp from the abuse of the system is not the same. That's my opinion anyways. 

Ayastia

Illidan said:

I believe it was mentioned that there is a command that you can use to prove who you are via a mechanical server-side report. So in the event someone claims to be someone, you can just say "prove it", and if they refuse, simply assume it's not that person.

Yeah, I was recently informed of this. But then you have examples like Rhyot used. Just act as his character would, even if it's not IC, like that character having never interacted with him. If you know Rhyot well enough, you would assume it's him. Without him ever claiming to be. Then what? It seems the common thread is 'don't believe anything anyone tells you in these rooms' which kinda makes you wonder why even have them? I mean, I have had very little interaction with Aisling. But I could go into logs, get a feel how his character behaves, and go into this room using his style and if someone knows the character, they could assume it was him. And since I'm behaving like him, why would ask me to prove it if I never officially claim to be?

Tetchta

yeah that sounds awesome

Seurimas

It seems the common thread is 'don't believe anything anyone tells you in these rooms' which kinda makes you wonder why even have them?

Because being suspicious and titillated can be fun. Because more tools for RP fosters broader characters. And because the risks presented here are comically overblown.

Ayastia

Seurimas said:

It seems the common thread is 'don't believe anything anyone tells you in these rooms' which kinda makes you wonder why even have them?

Because being suspicious and titillated can be fun. Because more tools for RP fosters broader characters. And because the risks presented here are comically overblown.

Everything is comically overblown until it happens. And then the response is 'well we never thought in a hundred years this would happen.'

Mythunnar

Tetchta said:

Rhyot said:

@Tetchta You're right. It is voluntary. But it can be used to abuse and cause drama for other players by -acting- like another player. I absolutely expect some of the playerbase to abuse this to further their own agendas, goals, or just to grief people they don't like out of the game for no other reason than they like to stir unicorns.

That sounds awesome and a great avenue for RP and conflict to me!

That does not sound like good rp and good conflict. These are real concerns and if someone goes through with their agenda and begins to slander someone that it causes rifts in game it can cause some serious consequences, you can seriously harm someone's reputation this way in and out of game.

Seurimas

I'll counter that with: I know a lot of this will happen, in some form or another, and I accept that. I also accept that the egregious breaches of conduct you suppose are 100% against easily enforceable rules. Soft anonymity does not open up the Pandora's box you're supposing it does.

Ayastia

Seurimas said:

I'll counter that with: I know a lot of this will happen, in some form or another, and I accept that. I also accept that the egregious breaches of conduct you suppose are 100% against easily enforceable rules. Soft anonymity does not open up the Pandora's box you're supposing it does.

I've already listed examples of people being issued for breaking hard rules and nothing happening to them. It happens a lot more than you think. Especially if said person is considered a whale. That is not just my take on it either but the general consensus I've picked up from many players. 

Tetchta

Mythunnar said:

That does not sound like good rp and good conflict. These are real concerns and if someone goes through with their agenda and begins to slander someone that it causes rifts in game it can cause some serious consequences, you can seriously harm someone's reputation this way in and out of game.

Aetolians sometimes have an IC/OOC separation problem that makes them take things like this OOC, I agree, but the problem is with how the community handles things like intrigue and inter-org strife, not with the strife itself. Most of all the things people are concerned with can already happen in game anyway. Syssin can literally forge letters, with very few ways to ever find out who actually sent it. People lie all the time about other people. It's fine. This is fine. We're fine. It's fine.

It's fine.

Mjoll

Mythunnar said:

Tetchta said:

Rhyot said:

@Tetchta You're right. It is voluntary. But it can be used to abuse and cause drama for other players by -acting- like another player. I absolutely expect some of the playerbase to abuse this to further their own agendas, goals, or just to grief people they don't like out of the game for no other reason than they like to stir unicorns.

That sounds awesome and a great avenue for RP and conflict to me!

That does not sound like good rp and good conflict. These are real concerns and if someone goes through with their agenda and begins to slander someone that it causes rifts in game it can cause some serious consequences, you can seriously harm someone's reputation this way in and out of game.

This already happens, it's just happening in private discord servers instead of in game. At least in game it would be appropriate and actually Roleplayed out.

Ephi

Considering how the curse event concluded I'm a little sad we're so quick to jump onto the next cool idea the admins have put out and tear it down. Can we give it some time? I've had so much fun it's such a unique experience so far.


All these concerns are valid but there's a lot of checks in place and I also find the idea of impersonating someone an interesting form of role play. Your characters should be going in with the assumption that all is not what it seems in the first place, considering it's all anonymous!  

It seems a few weren't aware of all the mechanics and checks already in place to prevent abuse, so please, try it out before you claim the sky is falling. It's actually really great. 

Saidenn

Being the subject of one said discord server who, when I get updates, still tells me uttering my character's name is unto summoning Voldemort, I concur completely with this statement.

And the admin have stated, before, a large portion of why they cannot always go after targeted harassment or character assassinations is due to so much happening in discord or other OOC avenues they cannot monitor or verify in any way.

Mythunnar

Tetchta said:

Mythunnar said:

That does not sound like good rp and good conflict. These are real concerns and if someone goes through with their agenda and begins to slander someone that it causes rifts in game it can cause some serious consequences, you can seriously harm someone's reputation this way in and out of game.

Aetolians sometimes have an IC/OOC separation problem that makes them take things like this OOC, I agree, but the problem is with how the community handles things like intrigue and inter-org strife, not with the strife itself. Most of all the things people are concerned with can already happen in game anyway. Syssin can literally forge letters, with very few ways to ever find out who actually sent it. People lie all the time about other people. It's fine. This is fine. We're fine. It's fine.

It's fine.

There is a difference between letters and sexual harassment. One is minor, the other is major.

Tetchta

I already addressed that, man. Issue it. It's against the rules.