Mirror Mirror, who can divine the future?

Bulrok

I'm thinking none of the Seluno brothers get the other brothers kit added into their guild, even if they're reskinned to not resemble them at all. Enorian and BL have 4 classes and 3 guilds to Spinesreach and Duiran's 3 classes and 3 guilds, so betting Eno and BL are out for the first release.

Sentinels to Archivist, Carnifex to Sentaari.

Qelres

Shamans in the Carnifex and Prae in the Templars?

Xarian

Praenomen in the Shamans and Luminaries in the Dominion

Saidenn

Archivist mirror will go into Ascendril.
Zealot mirror will go into Teradrim.

Ascendril and Archivist already share a general theme in terms of their guild roleplay and building upon a class that has some similar themes (passive aff tick through infusion, mental disarray) sounds fitting.

Earth-infused monks using their Earthen connection (in place of psionics) and a slow desiccation to punch somebody into shards.

Borminchia

Going to steal @Church's reasoning for Sentaari/Syssin, especially since Duiran/Spines also makes sense.

If it were up to me I would -not- want to tackle classes with lots of extra stuff (chaos plane, vampire subrace), and also not deal with any classes that might wobble the already not great group fighting dynamic that exists (not a knock at anyone just saying low impact mirrors for the first one would be my approach). At least, not on the first mirror go around. Also less time balancing means more time for next mirror!

Shadow classes:
-Carnifex
-Indorani
-Praenomen
-Teradrim
-Sciomancers
-Archivists

If they mirror Carnifex without breeding I will personally find every spirit player playing non-breeding mirrorFex IRL and shove a cute puppy into their loving homes. But seriously, Carni have the largest amount of skills in the game, by far, when accounting for hound traits. I would not want to mirror all of that on my first go. I also would not want to mirror the entire breeding system, unless it's being done in a simple sleek way.

Indo purely because Chaos Plane/pact stuff might be obnoxious to figure out a good mirror for.

Prae would need a subrace? Also I don't think I'd mirror the 'better' group fight classes on the first go (prae/lummie). Although I'm crossing all these off based on the idea that the class mechanics like chaos plane/pacts, breeding, etc are being mirrored.

Teradrim and Shaman I feel have to be mirrored at the same time. Giving one tether access to an extra class with desiccate/emerge is awkward. Sand/overgrowth stuff feels like it'd be a pain to mirror in general.

Same for Ascendril/Scio. Doubling up on classes with glyph/aegis stuff, along with the above average group fight utility, is why I'd avoid it on my first go.

So that leaves Archivist. Archi aren't crazy in groups since they really just offer Unravel and Crux, and I'd wager Unravel gets outdone by Spinecut most of the time.

Also, Archivist to Sentaari makes way, way too much sense. The Enlightened. Id/Ego/Superego instead of shapes. Karma or Lifeforce instead of Bioessence. etc etc

Spirit classes:
-Ascendril
-Luminary
-Shaman
-Zealot

See above for why no Asc/Lummie/Sham mirror early.

I have no idea how much the Grand Flame extra class stuff ties into Zealot, but if it's on the level of Carni/Indo stuff I'd stay away. Additionally, I wouldn't toss shadow Purgatory, nor another limb damage/salve only class when we already have Tera in groups. I do see Zealots as the commuted sentence/brawler of Syssin that was mentioned above though.

Which leaves:
-Sentinel
-Templar

Spines' first knight class! And Shadow's second "speed" knight class.

Sentinel makes sense, especially when thinking about the resins/venoms approach, as well as traps. But the scout/spy thing is maybe a little redundant? Woodlore has some forest-specific stuff to consider when mirroring, and I'm not sure where a Syssin guild would get ents from (shadow realmplane? ylempunk machines?). I'm not quite sure how Dhuriv fits in either, and tbh I can see Sentinel coexisting much more easily in a guild with a variety of other shadow classes (Carni already wield 2handers and have ents, Tera/Indo have chaos/earth ents for.. Earthlore? Chaoslore?). I'm also not sure about tossing traps/spinecut/elk block over to shadow yet. Having the Spines - Duiran classes going to each other is a nice equilibrium tho.

Templar could absolutely fit a bodyguard/KGB agent aesthetic for Syssin. Defend is nice in groups but (arguably ehehe) not that that crazy. Nothing else is that crazy to mirror over, and the overall number of skills are low (although Battlefury Mastery kinda adds onto it). I mentioned Templar/Teradrim bruiser bros in the mirror thread forever ago, but except for Terramancy Slam, bruising is basically impossible to track (no 3p message, and happens randomly so difficult to track on web) in group fights, and the overall benefit isn't even that great either.

My guess in the end then is Archi to Sentaari and... since I don't care about the minipet I'm going to be a coward and put down a 50/50 split on Sentinel/Templar to Syssin (biased towards Sentinel, personally).

Tina

I say shamans mirror in archivist, and archivist mirror in ascendril. Exploring how the world works around them, searching for secrets, it fits. And I feel those classes first, because those are the classes that get the most complaints from the opposite side as being too strong, and one of the balancing points around the mirrors is to get rid of this side is favorited cause they have access to these mechanics and they are too good.

Though I am curious how the adding classes to existing guilds is gonna work. The math adds up on shadow side, but how is the adding a class to an established guild gonna work when spirit needs to add six classes, and only has 5 guilds with a single class? Are one of their guild's gonna have three classes?

Haven

Insect class confirmed 2021.

I imagine one class will have no home like the Indorani.

Drystin

My guesses are ascendril in the carnifex and sciomancers in the sentaari. Why? Firstly, scio and ascendril were just revamped so none of that ye olde code that would slow down the completion. Second, this would result in all four cities having a mage class. Ascendril mirror will probably be some soul based magic theme while sciomancer mirror would be a mage that uses kai energy.

Sarita

I'm redoing mine based on more recent information seen elsewhere! I have no idea how the classes would be twisted into the lore in either guess, but celani can be pretty creative, so I'm thinking more about class/guild/city numbers balance and new skills than I am about lore.

#1. MirrorArchivist to the Sentaari. Archivist is also a new class. Having Duiran get the first mirror makes sense balance wise since Enorian already has four classes in their guilds. Sentaari still makes sense to me as the only Spirit guild with a neutral class. It feels like it would be nice to give those neutral class guilds something that's more uniquely theirs.

#2. MirrorAscendril to Syssin. Mostly the same logic as above in terms of why those two would be picked (Ascendril is new, Syssin is neutral, and BL already has four classes.) I chose Ascendril over Zealot here because of Zealot's subrace boost (see below.) In addition to the earlier point about neutral guilds, the other two Spinesreach guilds have had major updates and changes relatively recently.

I still feel like classes that either require (Praenomen) or get boosted by subraces (Teradrim, Zealot, and Templar) absolutely should have the same thing in their mirror class version as I suggested in the mirrorZealot to Teradrim combination. Maybe they don't have to be in the same guilds that currently require it like those three, but it should exist in some form. Also, Duamvi is absolutely not the Spirit counterpart to the vampire subrace in their current forms. I can think of multiple people who will be really mad if those two end up being used the same way down the road.

Amrynn

For guess, ShadowAscendril in Carnifex and SpiritSciomancer in Shamans.

Think it'd be neat to have shadow elemancy being about enslaving types of souls and forcing them to use their abilities for you with the resonance stuff being combos between them. And for SpiritScio Dendara seems like it could be a thing, different way of working with the same plane, totems and spirits for aegises and glyphs.


Not a guess for now but also wonder if maybe ShadowZealot in Archivists, mostly cause having a sub-race for each city seems neat as does purification being some kinda magi-tech concept leading to a sub-race derived from Science!

Church

Nah the Spirean equivalent of Duamvi is going to be a Severn-endorsed beastman subrace (minotaurs, catgirls, etc) and ShadowZealot tertiary balance will manipulate a sequin dress rather than a chain

Tiur

Tina said:

I say shamans mirror in archivist, and archivist mirror in ascendril. Exploring how the world works around them, searching for secrets, it fits. And I feel those classes first, because those are the classes that get the most complaints from the opposite side as being too strong, and one of the balancing points around the mirrors is to get rid of this side is favorited cause they have access to these mechanics and they are too good.

Though I am curious how the adding classes to existing guilds is gonna work. The math adds up on shadow side, but how is the adding a class to an established guild gonna work when spirit needs to add six classes, and only has 5 guilds with a single class? Are one of their guild's gonna have three classes?

I read this and all I think is... so I get to blow up a guild? TO MAKE IT EVEN

Savas

Why are so many people suggesting Carnifex guild getting a new class. They're one of the most active guilds in the game. And they're in BL, which already has 4 classes.

I mean, I love you guys to death but I'm going to be buttblasted if that's the case.

Anyways, GIVE MIRROR TO SYSSIN. I'm *so* ready to rewrite all the GHELPs.

Kagasha

Mirror-Praenomen to the Sentaari because they seem the most in need of sparkly pseudo-vampires. Plus I just finished rereading the Twilight series.

Mirror-Sentinels to the Syssin because they're the most in need of fluffy creature companions.

Lin

Some of you guys really aren't getting that the mirror classes won't literally be the same thematic thing as the old ones

Bulrok

Imagine you're bashing Tiyen. You get jumped by Loudmouth. Loudmouth starts hitting you with random things from the Insults skillset. Mostly entirely random afflictions, a couple of good old 'your mom' jokes that give you stupidity/paralysis, a few of them go too far and cause you to blackout, but mostly just random stuff. He hits you with an Insult ability you can't shake off by the normal means after a minute. And then another. And then another, and then one more. After thoroughly insulting you, he sees that you're off kilter. He's got you prepped, and he drops the big one. End Your Life Type Roast. You didn't shake off the other insults, so this one really gets to you, and your HP just evaporates.

Did you just get roasted or did you get Omen'd? That's tying the same mechanics into a different flavor. They don't have to resemble each other in theme at all.

Nisavi

I feel like getting too abstract is probably not a good idea when the classes are invariably going to be compared to their opposing mirror, but that's just me.

Czcienn

Sentinel to Syssin and Archivist to Sentaari are my guesses

- I don't think it'll be just one of the classes that are already thematically/mechanically mirrored (e.g. carnifex/templar, sciomancer/ascendril, teradrim/shaman). If we get one we're probably getting the other (imagine Spirit having 2 classes that offer sand/overgrowth while Shadow only has 1 for example - I don't think Tiur is going to put himself through that)
- Remember they have problems re-theming afflictions and such so the first ones likely won't be ones that require much more than simple re-theming of skills.
- Duiran and Spinesreach both only have 3 classes, and two of those are actually neutral. Makes sense to give the guilds that only have neutral classes their own "tethered" classes first.

For Sentinel to Syssin:
- Honestly, Spirit has a couple of classes that also fit the re-theming criteria pretty easily, but I think Sentinel makes the most sense here.
- Tracking seems to be a natural fit for Syssin, and being a more martial guild makes sense for the Dhuriv affs.
- Woodlore is a bit harder to mirror, although we may see Syssin delve more into the Shadow lore here and have them tie into the ents.

For Archivist to Sentaari:
- This one is more a process of elimination. Leaving aside the already "mirrored" ones aside, it really only leaves Archivist, Indorani, and Praenomen. Praenomen has a whole vampire mechanic that probably won't be mirrored quickly. Same for Indorani and their Domination/ties to the Chaos plane.
- Thematically Archivist skills do fit Sentaari though. The guild is about balancing the mind, body, and spirit, and it seems pretty easy to tie the Archivist skills to these aspects.
- Would be pretty cool if mutagens are turned into some spiritbending type thing, or we could see some sort of chakra thing in lieu of Numerology.


(alternative reading is I am totally ready for group Spinecut/Unravel nerfs)

Teotl

oh man... I wish I knew more about all the guilds.

But based on like... almost no knowledge of how ANY of these things work...

MirrorShaman for Dominion because I wasn't around for when rituals were a big thing, GHELP shamans mentions rituals so I'm hoping their skills are conducive to that mirror and I just wanna do blood magic please

and then I guess for a balance patch of 'hey lemme have a new rp flavour AND a spirit tether'

MirrorSciomancers for Sentinels

I don't actually have a good reason for this, but I literally logged back in just to read help scrolls and it just looked like it would be FUN.

Gavramel

I'm going off the deep end with this one: TWO classes
Priests into Templars
Shadow Priests into Carnifex
Because free recycled code

Lin

Gavramel said:

I'm going off the deep end with this one: TWO classes Priests into Templars Shadow Priests into Carnifex Because free recycled code

That would be the ultimate plot twist

Tirria

I will go with Praenomen in Templar, and sentinel in syssin.

Teani

Shaman skills to Archivist guild. I feel like those skills would go well in Spinesreach.

Carnifex skills in Sentinels makes sense in some ways, but not in others. Roan and Huwald merge? Not a fan, but it's a reskin, so maybe it's not noticeable like that. Duiran doesn't really have a weapon class like that, so in that way it makes sense.

Those are my guesses.

Ayastia

Mirror shaman in the teradrim
Mirror Archicist in the Sentaari. 

Almol

Almol said:

Carnifex gets Templar and remains the "Knight" guild of shadowside and Templars obtain Carnifex. That's my guess.

low hanging fruit

honestly i wouldn't be mad at being able to multi into templar.

I’m really jealous they got the 2-handed swords. I get big barbarian energy from Savagery and the hammers I can buy but our polearms should be big butt axes or 2hand swords.

And I can’t believe I missed unarmed savagery

Almol

Rijetta said:

I'm just gonna guess what I want and not what I think will happen so that admins will take my ideas and say, wow, good idea rij!


Ascendril in fex

Edit: I forgot to guess what spirit is getting. It's praenomen in templars

I can buy prae in Templars. A hungry duamvi demanding the ‘essence’ of the undead and consanguine to return them to the cycle or something.

Vharen

Sentinels in Syssin
Archivist to Sentaari

Just stealing guesses from above to participate

Seurimas

I'm gonna switch it up a little.

Sentinel for... Sciomancers!

Archivists for... Sentaari, that one actually tracks well enough.

Savas

So, with the possibility, however remote, of the Syssin getting a new class, a small issue arises.

Sanctions.

In its current incarnation, the Syssin guild has sanctioned.. nobody, as far as I'm aware. That's because the guild, and guildhall contains a lot of secrets centric to its roleplay and aesthetic. Also, SSIGN has become a key roleplay tool for internal guild chatter.

If the Syssin are on the block to get a new class, or heck, even if they are not. I would like to suggest an idea.

Allow Guildmasters to choose what sanction abilities people have access to. Example:

GUILD SANCTION SEVERN GUILDHALL YES/NO
GUILD SANCTION SEVERN ABILITY SSIGN YES/NO

EDIT: Honestly, even being able to sanction by class instead of ability would be OK in this scenario. Nobody really cares about missing out on SSIGN and phaseveil because they're largely flavor/utility.

Tiur

Syssin are the only weirdos like that. It'll be dealt with.

I'm going to close this soon and tally votes! Then I'll open something else with a slow drip of spoilers.