River

SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
edited December 2020 in Sparring Grounds
Hey. I want to talk about a specific, reoccurring situation that I've been seeing cropping up playing against the Spirit tether. For easier reference, I'll be speaking of something that just happened very recently in the Orrery.

I lead my group to the Orrery. I look inside the observatory and see Czcibor camping on top of a glyph of clarity. Immediately, most of us know what this means.

"We go in, we get trapped, glyphed, rivered and our group gets split up and picked off by their superior entrenchment. Our only reasonable option is to charge in and hope for the best (to be able to regroup fast enough), or to not play."

So I make the call, we go into the room, and sure enough. Trap procs, killing my command stack to move past into an adjacent room, some of my team gets rivered up into Spirit's team within 0.02 seconds to die. I just don't see the counterplay to this, am I missing something? Here are some of the options we considered.

- I could have phased in and hypno'd Czc, but I don't have the snapping arti.
- Traps interrupt command stacks to bypass.
- I could have used a sect ghost arrow to try and sneak in before he got the chance, but he could have been shielded and I didn't have any anyways.
- We couldn't prism or track in. Different area, indoors.
- I could have phased in and they could have portaled to me, but nobody had a wand.
- We could have left.

Obviously, I'm hoping river gets addressed this classlead round. I don't have any reasonable solutions to tune it without making it useless at the moment though, so I opened this thread for ideas so that when classleads come, we can have a direction of what to ask for and what people would find reasonable on both sides of the fence.

I'm not opening this thread to talk about the imbalances between Spirit and Shadow, labyrinth vs river, etc. The game is imperfect, this is just something that struck me as particularly powerful for one person to be able to do, given Pit was nerfed for the same reason (and yes, I agree Pit was too powerful in that state).
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Comments

  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    A few things about the scenario you're mentioning:

    1. You guys were pretty outnumbered so it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

    2. He was adjacent (and alone for that matter) and subject to a number of related abilities you had at your disposal and didn't use.

    3. I don't know what the chance is, but River has a chance to bypass your mass. It's not guaranteed.

    Now this isn't to say that River is a perfectly balanced ability because I can't say it is or isn't in either case. However there were a lot of things you didn't take into account in your post.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 585 ✭✭✭✭
    Mostly as a constructive form instead of railroading or gaslighting.

    If a solution was to be submitted or at least an option, have River be blocked by cube sigil if it's in the room as the targets. We already have these same counters in place for Telepathy, Lightform/phase/blackwind, and a veritable bunch of other skills. I see no reason why a cube sigil can't be used as a means of blocking being pulled by River.


  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    I'm interested to hear what related abilitieS we had that go through shield and different areas that can be used at range. Lure is 'counterable' by anchor/ staying off-bal (writhing etc), but I'll concede that I didn't consider it in the moment due to some present inexperience on our team. What if we didn't have a praenomen with us? What if Czc had an elk or a doubleblock?

    Maybe you know something more about my team comp I didn't at the time. I didn't list out every single possibility and avenue, sure, but I still feel it's pretty darn powerful for one person to be able to swing a fight so entirely like that.

    The fact that it has a chance to go through mass is part of the problem. It means some people get pulled. Some don't.
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Savas said:

    I'm interested to hear what related abilitieS we had that go through shield and different areas that can be used at range. Lure is counterable by staying anchor/off-bal (writhing etc), but I'll concede that I didn't consider it in the moment due to some present inexperience on our team. What if we didn't have a praenomen with us? What if Czc had an elk or a doubleblock?

    Maybe you know something more about my team comp I didn't at the time. I didn't list out every single possibility and avenue, sure, but I still feel it's pretty darn powerful for one person to be able to swing a fight so entirely like that.

    The fact that it has a chance to go through mass is part of the problem. It means some people get pulled. Some don't.

    So firstly, Aetolia is inherently balanced around who has what available. For example, Overgrowths/Sand seem really overpowered unless the opposite team has a Teradrim/Shaman. Labyrinths are exceptionally annoying to deal with, unless you have a Zealot. That doesn't mean the skill itself is imbalanced.

    Secondly, the fact of the matter is that he did not. He was in that room, by himself, not shielded. You could have lured, serenaded, neckdragged, for starters. I'm not sure how/if Teradrim sand abilities work when you're standing in a room adjacent to a different area, but i'm about 75% sure they work the same as shaman abilities, meaning that people standing in your sand/OG can be hit by certain abilities. Don't take my word as gospel on this last bit because I'm not wholly sure it would work, but I believe if you just had your Teradrim cast sand in the adjacent room and strip him, that also would have dealt with his shield if it even existed in the first place.

    Now, the other thing in this case is that River only can push you in one direction. In other words, all your team would have had to do was go in and just move one southwest, because that's as far as the river would carry them. You did have a group of inexperienced people with you, but that doesn't excuse not using the tools available.

    Now assuming he was actually shielded, if you had the numbers you could have just hard rushed the entire group, but you didn't and therefore had to resort to trying other tactics. Even for spirit, trying to break or siege a fort when the enemy has superior numbers is just a difficult thing to do. But outside of this, there was definitely a lack of experience/tools being utilized.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
  • CzciborCzcibor Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    There were things that anyone in any class could have done to stop it. In this particular instance you could have even just walked in through the other exit.

    River lasts 8-12 seconds, costing 3.01 modified equilibrium to put back up. Icewall blocks it. It isn't guaranteed to pull anyone on each individual tick. It doesn't even work on massed people unless clarity is also up in the room.

    Don't see why River is always seen as this Ascendril/Spirit bogeyman when it's actually more of a gotcha that requires the Ascendril to put themselves in the open to even attempt.
    Bulrok
  • TetchtaTetchta Member Posts: 566 ✭✭✭✭
    Take swimming lessons.
    "We're taught Lord Acton's axiom: all power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I believed that when I started these books, but I don't believe it's always true any more. Power doesn't always corrupt. What I believe is always true about power is that power always reveals. When you have enough power to do what you always wanted to do, then you see what the guy always wanted to do."
    -Robert Caro
    Sryaen
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Also i'd be willing to wager some of those folks didn't have mass up.

    Edit: Disclaimer, yes I'm aware it can bypass mass with Clarity, but the people who got pulled were among the number of inexperienced people you had.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    I'll admit we didn't try things because I assumed the worst possible scenario. I didn't list every avenue, only the ones we discussed.

    "Just walk sw lmao", 40% of my team was dead within 8 seconds of me finishing my writhe.
    "Just use the other exit", considered, but this isn't applicable to all situations and coordinating a juke like that wasn't guaranteed, esp if czc was running alertness.

    Like I said. I assumed the worst, that Czc knew what he was doing. Lure would have worked. That doesn't mean it should have.

    It also doesn't discount the point that it's a skill with very limited counterplay in many situations.
  • CzciborCzcibor Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    Nah, tbf lure doesn't work because I had adamance up (although that actually increases the risk). Seriously, the only counterplay you need is to queue up an icewall in the direction of the group with your movement.
  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    @Czcibor you can't icewall when entangled, afaik.
  • AlmolAlmol Member Posts: 35
    Illidan said:

    Also i'd be willing to wager some of those folks didn't have mass up.

    This seems like a condescending cheapshot in bad faith. Just from looking at the deaths, there's only one person I'd put even 100 gold on not having mass up.

    I -need- Spirit tether to start showing better sportsmanship in discussing these things OOCly. I totally understand IC vitriol, but arguing in bad faith on OOC mediums is just inviting spiteful responses, bad blood, and shitty classleads.
  • CzciborCzcibor Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Savas said:

    @Czcibor you can't icewall when entangled, afaik.

    Rooms can only have 2 glyphs. One has to be clarity for this to even work. Survival Clarity (the defence) protects against triggered glyphs like entrapment. The usual way to make people be affected by glyphs is to use addling which strips it first, but there's no more room for addling on top of entrapment/clarity. You shouldn't be entangled in this case.

    Flame tattoo also works.
  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020

    The protective shield around Irys dissipates.
    Borminchia, Chassity, Irys, Xai, Xarian, and a ghostly apparition follow you to the in.
    Approaching gates of thick metal.
    A fiery efreeti spins madly here. Surrounded in an aura of hostility, Czcibor Svin is here, giving
    off a truly ghastly stench. He is riding on a crystalline arachnid. He wields a jewel-encrusted
    buckler in his left hand and a long wooden staff in his right. This area has been overgrown with a
    swathe of seething plantlife. The air ripples around the nearly imperceptible form of a fulcrum of
    power floating here. Thunderheads boom and winds wail between the lightning that lances from a
    glimpse of Air.
    A glyph of clarity hangs in the air. A glyph of entrapment hangs in the air.
    You see exits leading southeast, south, southwest, and out.
    You spring a trap!!
    A loop of rope entwines around your neck, pulling you off your feet.

    I was talking about that trap.


    edit: clarity/flame would have been a good option too, you're right. I didn't have my flame up, though, and I don't know that absolutely requiring a flame and clarity for every single member of a group to be able to PVP is a wise stance.

    edit2: combustion + river also would have countered the icewall strat. So I'm still not sold.
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Almol said:

    Illidan said:

    Also i'd be willing to wager some of those folks didn't have mass up.

    This seems like a condescending cheapshot in bad faith. Just from looking at the deaths, there's only one person I'd put even 100 gold on not having mass up.

    I -need- Spirit tether to start showing better sportsmanship in discussing these things OOCly. I totally understand IC vitriol, but arguing in bad faith on OOC mediums is just inviting spiteful responses, bad blood, and shitty classleads.
    It wasn't vitriolic and I really wish you'd stop seeing it that way. We have inexperienced fighters who show up to fights all the time, who use sunder, who have to be reminded to put up mass, flame, metawake etc. That's where this line of thinking is coming from, because I'd hardly consider Chassity and Irys to be experienced combatants, and they were 2 of the 3 who got rivered. I'm not saying it's what happened, but you can't discount it being a possibility.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
  • ChurchChurch Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Knowing that I cannot provide it without the discussion becoming heated, I'm going to deliberately avoid commentary regarding the River skill and instead focus on the situation, and your knowledge of it, as presented: 
    In this scenario - with the expectation of a trap present to interrupt commands - the solution is to send someone in to fire the trap, wait for them to do it, and then walk the group in. Traps only fire once!
    Bulrok
  • StineStine Member Posts: 218 ✭✭✭
    Savas said:
    edit: clarity/flame would have been a good option too, you're right. I didn't have my flame up, though, and I don't know that absolutely requiring a flame and clarity for every single member of a group to be able to PVP is a wise stance.
    Unfortunately with the changes to mage classes, it has made clarity/flame tattoo just another of the required items like mass or rebounding. Same with metawake. 

    in this case, had you a flame tattoo you would have been able to do exactly what you wanted to do in your original post - move the group past the mage and into the main room.
  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    in this case, had you and everyone following you used flame tattoo and clarity you would have been able to do exactly what you wanted to do in your original post - move the group past the mage and into the main room.

    ftfy. Yes, everyone, because what if I was left unenemied and someone following triggered the trap instead to be left behind.

    Yeah, if this is the meta, I think the meta should change.

  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    To expand, if it's expected to have flame and clarity up as much as mass and cloak in group PVP, then flame and clarity should be made as readily available and inexpensive as those two things.

    Alternatively, they shouldn't be required at all because there's already a butt-ton of moving parts in group PVP for someone to get into.

    edit: which loops back to the point of the thread; River probably needs a change.
  • NisaviNisavi Member Posts: 168 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    As someone who has tested River in the arena, here were my findings:

    1.) River is short lived. Average was about 15-30 seconds.

    2.) Rivers can be overlapped, meaning that it is possible to have two Ascendril setting up a system of push and pull through stuff.

    3.)The average proc/check time for River w/Clarity in the room was 4 seconds, but it functions on a global timer which means that this timer is always going. (Edit: It's possible that the mass check procs faster and on a different timer. Someone should probably check this.) (Edit 2: Turns out I'm getting conflicting/inconsistent information on this one now. My only thought is that there is a separate timer for constant mass checks that can force a movement versus the normal tick.)

    4.) The Clarity glyph must be in the victim's room for it to have a chance of going through mass.

    4.) River will fire when strengthened by Clarity regardless of whether or not the victim has the Clarity defense up.

    All and all, here is my judgment of River:
    I think it's situationally good, much like Labyrinth, when the opportunity presents itself. After playing with it via Classmod, I'm not convinced that it's overly powerful. Of the opinion now that it's overly powerful when used in conjunction with additional abilities. While Classmod is bugged now and I couldn't test it again like I did with Xav a few months ago, my memory makes me think that river currents and Arcanism River + Clarity Glyph functions like river currents given the information and inconsistency. You can argue that one main drawback for it is that it requires a Sciomancer to dispel the Clarity glyph in the room. Spirit can probably argue that Labyrinth everywhere is obnoxious without a Zealot towing a monolith.

    If you want my honest opinion, I look forward to the day when Shadow has a means of disarming traps, really.
    Post edited by Nisavi on
  • SavasSavas Member Posts: 62 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    The inconsistent/conflicting information is that river ticks can occur as fast as 1.24s between each other, not 4s, as evidenced by logs of what happened today.
  • NisaviNisavi Member Posts: 168 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Savas said:

    The inconsistent/conflicting information is that river ticks can occur as fast as 1.24s between each other, not 4s, as evidenced by logs of what happened today.

    Agreed. This knowledge makes me believe that River is just transplanted river currents code, and when combined with triggered stormhorn on Alertness, makes River an unavoidable counter. I'm changing my stance on it.
    Saidenn
  • SaidennSaidenn Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    I do not think river alone is overpowered. I think the synergy with room effects that Spirit can bring can cause it to feel the abilities alone are overpowered. Traps can catapult people, and firewalls on the entrances to the area can remove the mass protection and, when catapult chained, pull a caller into river or other effects. 

    I have been victim, many times, to firewalls+catapult+aegis, and especially when the environment is indoors Shadow has little recourse to this particular combination. Shadow has very little in the 'set and forget' way that can force movement, which I think is where River starts feeling overwhelming.

    If Syssin had an ability to disarm traps then I would be all right with how it is currently. But as stated, River itself is not overpowered, it is the synergy with other room effects that Spirit brings that leaves it feeling that way in my opinion.

    Nisavi said:
    The inconsistent/conflicting information is that river ticks can occur as fast as 1.24s between each other, not 4s, as evidenced by logs of what happened today.
    Agreed. This knowledge makes me believe that River is just transplanted river currents code, and when combined with triggered stormhorn on Alertness, makes River an unavoidable counter. I'm changing my stance on it.
    Edit: See what I said above about Synergy.

    Edit 2: This kind of synergy between abilities, namely an implanted Aegis with labs into a standing aegis with slumber and entangle into Pit is why Pit got leaded and changed.
    Nisavi
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Saidenn said:

    I do not think river alone is overpowered. I think the synergy with room effects that Spirit can bring can cause it to feel the abilities alone are overpowered. Traps can catapult people, and firewalls on the entrances to the area can remove the mass protection and, when catapult chained, pull a caller into river or other effects.

    The only bit I'd like to point out here is that the unfortunate thing about firewalls is they affect everyone equally when it comes to the interaction with the firewall itself. There have been a couple of times where Shadow is holding a spot, and we've rushed in to have a number of people die to a firewall chain setup. Of course, I understand that the concern here is the mass strip to combo with traps, but firewalls can be avoided by simply moving slower and checking. We run into a similar issue when dealing with labyrinths and no zealot, especially if there were firewalls stacked on top of the labs. Now there's definitely argument as to why this problematic when combo'd with other things (such as telepathy), but I think there can probably be a limiter set on how many firewalls a person can have in existence at any given time. I might even go so far as to say it may need some hard cap on how many can exist in an area at any given time. But that's just me.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
  • SaidennSaidenn Member Posts: 92 ✭✭✭
    Illidan said:

    Saidenn said:

    I do not think river alone is overpowered. I think the synergy with room effects that Spirit can bring can cause it to feel the abilities alone are overpowered. Traps can catapult people, and firewalls on the entrances to the area can remove the mass protection and, when catapult chained, pull a caller into river or other effects.

    The only bit I'd like to point out here is that the unfortunate thing about firewalls is they affect everyone equally when it comes to the interaction with the firewall itself. There have been a couple of times where Shadow is holding a spot, and we've rushed in to have a number of people die to a firewall chain setup. Of course, I understand that the concern here is the mass strip to combo with traps, but firewalls can be avoided by simply moving slower and checking. We run into a similar issue when dealing with labyrinths and no zealot, especially if there were firewalls stacked on top of the labs. Now there's definitely argument as to why this problematic when combo'd with other things (such as telepathy), but I think there can probably be a limiter set on how many firewalls a person can have in existence at any given time. I might even go so far as to say it may need some hard cap on how many can exist in an area at any given time. But that's just me.
    Does this mean you'd be in favor of making traps visible in the room, then? Then we, too, can go slow, know what is coming by glancing, and prepare for the firewall appropriately. And as an aside, you only need a Zealot against labs if the Sciomancer has left their Singularity in the room with the labs AND they have remembered to activate retardation. Otherwise, you can... wield monolith|throw monolith dir and the lab is nullified. No amount of me glancing into the room on the other side of the firewall is going to tell me if traps exist in that room or not, and even if I assume they do, which traps they are.

    And again, I point to synergy and Pit. Had anyone taken the time to, as stated:
    Illidan said:

    can be avoided by simply moving slower and checking.

    then the attuned aegis into an ensorcelled aegis with pit building would have been a non-issue. Yet, here we are.

  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Saidenn said:

    Illidan said:

    Saidenn said:

    Does this mean you'd be in favor of making traps visible in the room, then? Then we, too, can go slow, know what is coming by glancing, and prepare for the firewall

    I don't know how that would affect balance, but I was addressing you specifically referencing the firewall stripping your mass so that you get catapulted. If you put the firewall out before you walk through, it won't strip your mass and hence will not get you catapulted. Also, you don't even need to know what trap it is, if catapult is the concern, because a Sentinel can only lay 1 trap in any given direction anyway. So if there is a firewall up, you can probably safely assume it's a catapult and just put it out anyway.

    Edit: I'm bad at quoting someone send help pls.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
  • BorminchiaBorminchia Member Posts: 57 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2020
    Illidan said:



    So firstly, Aetolia is inherently balanced around who has what available. For example, Overgrowths/Sand seem really overpowered unless the opposite team has a Teradrim/Shaman.

    Honestly it kind of sucks that Aet works this way if it's true. If the whole point is to get people to fight each other in group fights, having the group fight be wildly imbalanced because 'they have class x and we don't have class y to counter' seems backwards. It makes it seem like the fight is over before it even starts, which is not going to be fun for people participating.
    Illidan said:


    Labyrinths are exceptionally annoying to deal with, unless you have a Zealot. That doesn't mean the skill itself is imbalanced.

    Is there an equivalent 'river is annoying unless shadow has class x' that I'm missing? Also I have no idea how a Zealot counters lab so it might be simpler than I think.
    Illidan said:


    Secondly, the fact of the matter is that he did not. He was in that room, by himself, not shielded. You could have lured, serenaded, neckdragged, for starters.

    Czcibor said:

    Nah, tbf lure doesn't work because I had adamance up (although that actually increases the risk).

    ope
    Illidan said:


    I'm not sure how/if Teradrim sand abilities work when you're standing in a room adjacent to a different area, but i'm about 75% sure they work the same as shaman abilities, meaning that people standing in your sand/OG can be hit by certain abilities. Don't take my word as gospel on this last bit because I'm not wholly sure it would work, but I believe if you just had your Teradrim cast sand in the adjacent room and strip him, that also would have dealt with his shield if it even existed in the first place.

    Afaik, you can't put sand down in rooms that already have overgrowth (and vice versa), unless you are standing in the room. That's why when you use surge/simoon, you get a message that says 'there's already stuff here so the ability failed'.
    Illidan said:


    Now, the other thing in this case is that River only can push you in one direction. In other words, all your team would have had to do was go in and just move one southwest, because that's as far as the river would carry them.

    Stine said:


    in this case, had you a flame tattoo you would have been able to do exactly what you wanted to do in your original post - move the group past the mage and into the main room.

    Warding rite? Actually does warding rite stop river from pushing you? That'd be an awkward interaction.
    Czcibor said:

    Seriously, the only counterplay you need is to queue up an icewall in the direction of the group with your movement.

    Angel beckon?
    Czcibor said:


    Don't see why River is always seen as this Ascendril/Spirit bogeyman when it's actually more of a gotcha that requires the Ascendril to put themselves in the open to even attempt.

    It's a boogeyman for the same reason beckon and eruption are boogeymen, the value of splitting up a group and simultaneously pulling a small set of that group into you to kill has incredibly high value in group fights. It's allowing the successful use of one ability to dictate the entire fight, and really winning the fight before it's ever started (or I guess at the very start if you count it a fight at all).

    The whole meta feels kind of backwards. Entrenchment abilities should be fairly lackluster because of how easy they are to set up (AB DESICCATION INSTABILITY comes to mind...). The whole point is that you have a position to defend and are freely able to set up your entrenchment stuff pre-fight. If you have great group splitting abilities then those entrenchment abilities should be diminished even more because of how valuable those group split abilities are, and how they add to the complexity of trying to move around an entrenched enemy. Entrenchment busting abilities/defenses should be valuable counters and it should be fairly easy to side step the group split abilities because of how valuable the abilities are (or not easy to side step but the value of group split abilities be lower).

    Instead entreching yourself is incredibly strong, makes attacking into entrenchment incredibly complex, which is going to lead to errors being made which is going to lead to easy group split abilities being used on you, all while having most counterplay tools available to you be fairly complex to use and easy to counter themselves.
    Illidan said:


    Now assuming he was actually shielded, if you had the numbers you could have just hard rushed the entire group, but you didn't and therefore had to resort to trying other tactics. Even for spirit, trying to break or siege a fort when the enemy has superior numbers is just a difficult thing to do. But outside of this, there was definitely a lack of experience/tools being utilized.

    We actually were just going to rush, since a goal for Orrery is to try and pick off the globe holder to slow down ticks, not necessarily wipe out the enemy team. We just never got the opportunity to do so.

    And that (along with my other points) is kind of my problem with all the entrenchment/force player movement abilities that exist right now. Fights are over before they start, and it's super unfun to not be able to play the game. Don't get me wrong, I don't think 'enter room, roll face across keyboard, find out if you win at the end' slug fest are necessarily the best either, but at least there's some sense of doing stuff. Being able to straight up stop fights from happening by completely splitting up groups is definitely not better.

    I'd much, MUCH rather see interesting in room mechanics/player controlling abilities for when the fight actually does start, vs the immense advantage entrenched groups get along with whatever group split abilities they have. I think about an old Tera ability like Earthenmaw (AoE impale), and I look at how easy it is for abilities like Beckon and River to split up groups allowing for easy wins, and actual passive aoe entangles on room entry exists, and how abilities like Refining Disperse and Dhuriv Nimble exist and honestly.. aoe impale seems almost tame in comparison. (this is just an example don't yell at me for thinking earthenmaw could exist in today's meta that's not what this post is about)


    I honestly had other points to make but i got lazy at the end especially when i realized this post is an organizational mess so glhf reading nerds
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,127 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Honestly it kind of sucks that Aet works this way if it's true. If the whole point is to get people to fight each other in group fights, having the group fight be wildly imbalanced because 'they have class x and we don't have class y to counter' seems backwards. It makes it seem like the fight is over before it even starts, which is not going to be fun for people participating.

    Agreed, but that's just the way it is and has been for a long time.


    Is there an equivalent 'river is annoying unless shadow has class x' that I'm missing? Also I have no idea how a Zealot counters lab so it might be simpler than I think.

    PSI HOLD lets Zealots hold a monolith in essentially third arm, and the monolith works as if it's been dropped on the ground when held in this way. Also, it is possible for Sciomancers to disable the glyph that causes river if they can get into the room.


    Afaik, you can't put sand down in rooms that already have overgrowth (and vice versa), unless you are standing in the room. That's why when you use surge/simoon, you get a message that says 'there's already stuff here so the ability failed'.

    I planned on classleading that this round, allowing Simoon/Surge to work if the OG/Sand owner is not in the room.


    As for all the rest, I agree trenches have have been a longstanding issue in giving a huge advantage to defenders, especially where Spirit is concerned. But it's a lot to tackle and rebalance from the ground up. Group combat just becomes increasingly stupid the more people/abilities/combos you have readily available. Just imagine how much more insane it will become when mirrors get released.
    They didn't listen when I said Shamans were strong in groups. 
    Aetolia Buzzwords: Bad actors, disingenuous, disingenuous bad actors, and bad actors being disingenuous. 
                                                                                                   
              
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  • SaltzSaltz Member Posts: 39
    Why is beckon brought up in a commandchained icewall scenario? It's something you've a myriad of counterplay tools for, that you actively use to beat it in a consistent basis. You know, much unlike how it's with shift/slice+brazier combo that strictly requires your to group have a shaman to deal with it.

    Some of the arguments put forth here sound more and more like the narrative that got Erode implemented into the game re: "Spirit has a 'reliable' force strip, and we don't." It's objective that you had no means to deal with aegis until then, but the implementation of Erode as a raze while force having literally 'hundreds' of answers available to it in the game, caused a major point of imbalance in the group combat on its own.

    I'm not saying @Savas's frustration is unjustified, while dealing with entrenchment or facing higher numbers. I try and rally the troops even with very slim odds on a pretty consistent basis myself, so I can relate to that. Sometimes I just hit a brickwall where I've no answer to the trick up the sleeve of my competition. Sometimes, I just accept that the mechanics I'm facing are superior to what I've at that given moment, but it's just a game. And despite, I think Aet balance overall is very admirable, it's not an equal playfield like chess. But for fairness to the admins overseeing balance, even 'if' it was... Even after, mirror classes were implemented, we'd still have similar issues and frustrations. Because, group combat is always going to be volatile with some classes being represented in it at a scenario for one side, while some others are not. So the tools available in each skirmish will always be fluid.
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 240 ✭✭✭✭
    Do you think Erode came into existence solely from that Aegis classlead? It existed to strip Lyre before. There's no reason it shouldn't strip aegis, and now it does. Force strips it too. Now we both have a reliable aegis strip. You have Force, we have Erode. Ignoring the fact that Force can do lots of other things, it's fine. We also both have stuff that goes through aegis!
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    ValorieMjollValeriaNisaviEhtias
  • ValeriaValeria Member Posts: 1
    Force isn't a reliable aegis strip.
    RijettaMjollSaltzNisaviSryaenEhtias
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