POWERBASHING NEWBIES: A Bad Practice That Needs to Stop?

Tetchta

Hello, everybody, I have a hot take today, but I do have some evidence (anecdotal and personal) to back it up. A really common practice, at least in Bloodloch, is to take newbies/lowbies to end game areas and powerbash them up to high levels. I think, while this may have some immediate benefits (who DOESN'T like levelling up 60 times in 20 minutes?) I think we may overall be hurting our newbies more than helping them, and by extention, hurting ourselves and our orgs.

For one thing, bashing in Aetolia is more complicated than a lot of us oldbies realize, having been normalized to it, and what's more, it scales in complexity--meaning that early bashing areas require less trial and error and have bigger margins for success than endgame areas. This means as you progress through zones and gain levels, you get better at a somewhat steady pace. You've had plenty of time to learn about vigor, resistance enchantments, miniskills, and vital room-reading things like "hey I should run away!" I've seen some newbies complain that bashing is too hard because they've been rushed to the 80's or 90's and are bashing areas "for their level" but they're totally underprepared.

What's more, and this is something I discovered when I was exploring to get Aetolian Ranger, is that we end up essentially shrinking the world down. There's a vast swath of the game with really dope quests and cool atmosphere that make Aetolia feel humongous, and they're places you're meant to find organically as you progress through the level system. Places like Dun, Catacombs beneath Djeir, and Riparium end up entirely ignored. The game feels a lot smaller as a result, and unless you go out of your way to these zones on purpose later, you'll essentially never have reason to see them.

This also essentially limits all new content to Aetolia to Endgame, Newbie (Intro and maybe the lowest-of-low level zones), and things that are fun regardless of level. I think we're overriding half the fun of progression by overwhelmingly skipping the entire midgame for people, and we should consider stopping unless people explicitly ask for it or people are known alts who want to skip all that content.

This is not to say that we can't do some bashing with lowbies as a community-building event--especially taking them bashing and watching what they do and giving them pointers can go a long way, I just think we should consider reducing the amount that we power level lowbies.

What do you guys think?

Ardent

I think with the advent of free public systems that clear certain areas and not others and how easy it is to tell a new player "Yeah, grab Sunder or Darkside and do this command" compared to "Well, if you go to this zone and do this, and talk to this guy, and do this, and this, and this you get some gold" it's not really much of a contest. Considering if your goal is mainly RP you want to get to 80 asap so you don't need food or sleep. Add on how some organizations require some sort of combat task and you're not going to get those done at a low level (considering combat basically revolves around endgame/tri-trans at the very very least) espeically given hos fast most classes can kick out an insta.

Are we losing out and hurting the game by automating things and helping people progress as fast as possible with powerbashing? Probably. Is that going to change because it got brought up? Likely not.

Sessizlik

I couldn't agree more. This has been a pet peeve of mine for many years now.
I remember the good old days when Tekal actually meant something, because it was so rare. When Brunneng (not sure I got the spelling right) bashed his way to Tekal in Azdun, killing ghouls, skeletons and goblins.
These days, you sip a chalice, touch a book tattoo, drain an elemental orb and you are well on your way to being "endgame". Endgame isn't impressive anymore. It's not special. And while lvl200 is really impressive and that is the new "goal", it's simply not the same thing.
Newbies need to learn to handle themselves, bash through the appropriate areas (and make sure that the areas are correctly labled in the AREAS command, cause they sure aren't right now), and learn to bash themselves up to lvl100.
I would love to see Azudim and Yeleni being special again too, where players earn the race through tasks and trials, instead of just picking it randomly out of the blue.

Zantiln

As someone who (semi) recently bashed to Tekal twice and has dragged a few ex IRE outsiders into the game and had feedback, Aet is super unforgiving to anyone new that isn't bashing with friends. Snakepit is a doddle for me now, but at 55 without miniskills? (which is the 'areas' implied level), it sure wasn't. I felt that I was pretty much stuck doing Fissure, Mor and a handful of other areas on repeat forever to try and reach a point where I was levelled enough to continue levelling past these zones, let alone getting involved in pvp et al.

Gyana

I have been on both sides of this:

1) On the one hand, I do think it's important for new -- really new -- players to get a hang of the game mechanics. If they're not clear on how their skills work or how to evaluate enemies or how to use FirstAid or what everything does in the newbie areas, it's going to hinder their understanding of other aspects in more difficult areas as well. I had this experience, and it's still something I'm learning about: skills, what they do, how they're effective, etc. Some players might learn quicker than others though!

2) On the other hand, after a certain point, it can also be frustrating to be stuck in the same areas over and over, never going anywhere too exciting or new because every enemy/mob does a one-hit kill. As above, I also had -this- experience and it often made me not want to play the game.

I was lucky enough to find a couple of people that taught me and helped me out a lot. I think their methods were great: They helped me bash a little bit, not too much, but they also allowed me to test mobs myself or taught me how I should prepare when hunting.

I would love to see Azudim and Yeleni being special again too, where players earn the race through tasks and trials, instead of just picking it randomly out of the blue.

Though I'm half-and-half on this topic, I just wanted to say: this particular bit is why I've not had Gyana ascend to Azudim yet even though she's been able to for IRL months. (Rituals! RITUALS!)

Rhyot

So... speaking personally, I've always hated it when I would get invited to a hunting party to get powerbashed to level 80+ because it means I lose out on crucial and vital skill learning. I am a multiclasser and understand most bashing mechanics on Shadow side (Carnifex continues to confuse me because Hounds and other cooldowns)... however, if I decided to roll a Spirit character and someone powerbashed me, I'd feel like I'm extensively behind the curve on learning exactly what I can do with my skills because I was never given the opportunity of trial/error in bashing.

If I, as a player who has spent years upon years bashing, would feel this same level of unattachment; just imagine how a new player feels.


That's not to say that powerbashing is inherently bad. Like if I rolled a new Praenomen, Teradrim, or Indorani, I'd like to be powerbashed, because I already know the classes. I think we should allow the NEW *new* players the benefit of the doubt in learning their skills instead of stripping them the opportunity to learn them. Powerbashing is all well and good, but let them learn the nuances first.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to a level of comfortability the player has with the class in which their rolling a character on.

Savas

I couldn't disagree more. You don't learn anything about 'class nuances' from bashing.

Most classes only have a couple ways they can even attack NPCs, and among those ways there's an optimal way to do things and a suboptimal way. Once you read the relevant GHELPs or ask a friend the best bashing attack for your class, you've pretty much achieved bashing enlightenment in Aetolia. Some times classes have PVE utility like reflections or priestess tarot, but do you really need to bash for hours on end to understand those mechanics? I don't, but maybe I'm some kind of super genius.

This all being said, I do believe in letting newbies stand on their own two feet. I powerbash newbs a lot if they want to hang out, but I try to make sure they understand where they can be hunting at whatever level I leave them off at.

Tetchta

Savas said:

I couldn't disagree more. You don't learn anything about 'class nuances' from bashing.

You don't really learn class nuances, yeah, but bashing IS a skill, and bashing in each class is a little different. Hell, a ton of people who played Prae didn't know about low-blood bashing until, like, a few weeks ago. I do think that the kids gloves in lower zones are better suited for newbies who are getting their bearings, especially since I've heard newbies complain about this exact thing before (hear stuff like "everything keeps instant killing me") I think easing into it is better for a lot of folk, but obviously there's no one size fits all solution here.

Teani

When it comes to powerbashing, I don't think the drawback has so much to do with understanding of the class or the skills, but more with understanding the game, the world, the ambience.

I recall making use of areas such as Liruma, Pash Valley and Scidve for bashing right after leaving newbie areas. It was a good way to understand the geography of the game, slowly expanding my character's world. I think that sort of thing is very important for character development. If you constantly use the path system, if you are constantly being taken along somewhere, you miss out on finding interesting things for yourself. It's a bit of a shame that a lot of low level things are left untouched.

At the same time I understand the wish to get out of the drudgery faster. It's a good option for those who hsve less of sn interest in the slow build-up. After trying out Achaea very recently, I am so happy with how easy Aetolia is for new players, providing a lot more options from the start.

Perhaps some areas would get a bit more love if the mob strength and xp gain scaled according to level? I suppose the way shared xp is given out needs to be adjusted if that is the case, though. 

Saidenn

So back before we had systems that would bash for us, or a list of Areas to choose from, every org had a handy-dandy file called HELP BASHING or HELP HUNTING or HELP LEVELING that listed areas, how to attack, and what to bring with you. While I am not a fan of autobashing in its current incarnation for unrelated reasons, it is a bit disingenuous to suggest this is a recent issue of ignoring the world at large.

I will agree with @Savas in this that bashing doesn't teach you much about your class outside the basics of how tanky you are and perhaps which bash attack is best, but I will also recognize @Tetchta point about bashing being a skill, but here is the thing with bashing being a skill. Very little of that skill is learned or applies prior to endgame. Most low-level areas are "hit thing, sip health, touch shield, apply mending, sip immunity" and that's about it, and that's all handled by firstaid apart from the "hit thing" and "touch shield". Colors in health tell you when you're low on health so you know to shield or run, but again, that doesn't really teach you much about the skill of bashing.

Nothing at low-level truly prepares a new player for the threats of Xaanhal, the density of damage found in level 99 areas such as Tiyen or Dovan or Tcanna. Nothing at low-level prepares you for the rolling blackout or the wandering groups of aggro mobs found in Arbothia, or the bursts of damage found in Luzith or even MORE blackout in say Forgotten Dome. Yes, bashing at low level may give you the basics, but the comparison of the two, to me, are comparing learning proper techniques to jog and run, and then jumping into a marathon and realizing that the techniques you learned only barely apply to the task ahead of you.

As for the commentary regarding holding back Yeleni and Azudim and making the 'task' of getting them more indepth, the issue we run into is balance. People severely underestimate the difference 5% damage reduction makes in bashing, and many forget the insanity that occurred when Tekal and above had built-in resistances and regens before raceskills that made it impossible to balance bashing areas correctly. If you want an example of how hard it is to balance endgame with massive boosts, look to Achaea's dragons and the damage input of "endgame" areas. Many areas are built in a way that even with artifacts, you will struggle to survive outside Dragon unless you are a true whale.

So, lot of words. Solution? Take those that want powerbashed out to powerbash. Take the time -as- you powerbash to talk to them about the areas they can explore, the world, and RP with them some before/during/after to get them engaged. Share with them the things your character or you love about Aetolia in a meaningful way. It may stick, it may not, but we all play differently.

Bottom line: Enjoy what you want, share that with others, let people enjoy what they do and encourage that enjoyment if you get a chance.

Saltz

This thread has ben an unexpected coincidence for me, because I took the mantle of powerbashing with novices not too long ago and the main point of this thread has been something I've been toying with for a while.

Below are some examples of an OOC conversation I've had with a novice prehunt this morning, before I even knew this thread existed:

I personally started giving these warnings, because, I think people who enjoy the game world through exploration according to their current level, solving quests and therefore taking their time to learn things at their own pace, instead of being welcomed to the endgame and trying to sort everything out at once, are having a much better time in the game and therefore sticking longer with us.

However even with all those kept in mind, I will not say powerbashing is a bad practice. I think it depends a lot on the invidiual's game knowledge or their expectations from the game. If I warn someone about what they might be potentially missing through powerbashing and they are still interested in that, that's good enough for me to do it.

Drystin

If I see a real newbie (as in, not an alt) I won't power bash them up. Real newbies are rare these days though and it's obvious when you find one.

Evalyne

People will always gravitate towards the most convienent and efficient means of doing things; to expect otherwise is foolish.

Amrynn

So not an IRE newbie, but not really well versed here. I also only got a little powerbashing but think it's been mostly soloing with every now and then following someone for daily credits.


I don't necessarily think I learnt much of anything from bashing solo, might be from IRE experience but the city helps I've found provided what I needed including some of the info noted here. There was a point though where everything did just kinda feel... suddenly harder? Even in the ylem mines I went from it being kinda trivial to dying around 70-80.

Which just made me kinda want to get powerbashed up rather than struggling heh.