The Sect of Blades

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Short Questions.

Illikaal

I have a question, actually. This will likely be aimed at the admin since there's no Sect of Blades council yet. 

Suppose Sect member A gets killed by Sect member B solely because of the purpose to accrue more marks for their Sect Insignia. Sect member A then gets mad, KNOWING that Sect member A killed them solely because of the Sect, and decides that they want to enlist help from an outside source to essentially team the life out of Sect member B. Is this, or is this not grounds for excommunication from the Sect? And if it is, how do we go about doing it?

Moirean

I think the Sect help files do state something about how you should make an effort for the fighting to be mutually agreed upon, versus just ganking people while they are bashing (ahem to certain people out there *tease*). It seems that the goal is to encourage sportsmanship and FUN across the board - in that vein, people should probably make an effort to accept duels when requested, to encourage activity and fair combat, so others don't feel the need to go out jumping.

As for the excommunication thing, that sounds a bit extreme, but so does repeated jumping and teaming. Were there no other issues at play?

Your post is a leeeetle bit political, versus just a question, so further discussion might be better for another thread. It would be nice, though, if people can sort out how to behave in the sect, though, because it's a cool option and I don't want to see it ruined.

Illikaal

I would argue otherwise, honestly. The whole point of the Sect is to encourage 1v1 combat. If you get butthurt and say "Lol I lost a sect duel, so I'm going to go and team this person because of that." then why are you in the Sect to begin with? 

EXCOMMUNICATION. Like Ra's Al Ghul did Bane from the League of Shadows. 

Esper

I think at this point excommunication is unlikely to happen.  The sect is still too young to really have even fostered a culture yet.  Both of the issues you've mentioned seem to indicate that it's heading in the wrong direction, though; if the sect descends into reiterative griefing, it's just going to end up being another reason people will stay in cities to avoid potential conflict.

I'm not saying that the situations described should always be avoided: arranging a sort of staged ambush scenario would be nigh impossible, and sometimes the challenge of that is fun for both parties (usually the ambusher).  Sometimes, too, revenge is more important than honor, meaning a return with a teammate makes a certain amount of sense (usually not fun).

When I joined, I assumed that there would be an understood code of ethics that we'd all be following: don't grief, don't only gank while hunting, don't revenge murder with a teammate.  Because there aren't any official rules right now, though, we exist in an interesting space to work with in order to make the sect fun for everyone involved.  As players, we have to agree on certain standards of behavior.  Always accept duels when asked, even if you need a minute or a few hours; don't employ tactics to the point that it no longer is fun; be prepared not to complain about deaths related to the sect, even if the methods used go against your understanding of the standards.  Because the community is still young, we have an opportunity to make it something really enjoyable and long lasting, and a power to enforce it: no one wants to face a gauntlet of seven duels in a row.

tl;dr: employ good sportsmanship as a community within the sect, since any standard of behavior will be player-driven.

Seir

The problem when duels have to be agreed upon is that individuals will then only fight on grounds when they have the clear advantage or know that they won't lose to the person challenging them. This will immediately foster an inactive environment within the Sect.

However, I think the Sect is in a good spot right now where it is. You understand that by having an insignia, you are opening yourself to be ganked at any time for the future rewards that can be obtained as you progress further within the ranks of the Sect. From what has been hinted, those rewards in the hall of the Sect are pretty good. It's a high risk, high reward environment which is something that I feel Aetolia has lacked in the past but is DEFINITELY the way to go.

It's a much better system than its brothers in Imperian and Achaea with the Champion system and Champion/Assassin Mark system respectively because it mechanically enforces 1 v 1 combat. The previously mentioned ones encourage teaming because those people are open PK and rewards them for it in many cases. Here, you get nothing save the smug satisfaction of teaming the person, but it honestly makes you look bad if you're Sect and resorting to team fights. It makes me question why your character is in the Sect in the first place. In so far, I've had no problem getting fights be it in the way of challenging for duels or jumping people. The Sect has, if anything, silently encouraged a 1 v 1 atmosphere in the background as I have been able to get duels for the first time in about a year and a half.

One thing I will say is that I think the amount of marks required to get the rewards should probably be scaled back. I think 98% of the Sect is still at Green Recruit.

Edit: Also going to suggest that marks not be able to go below zero. Also, require a fight every 3-5 IC months rather than once every year to encourage people to fight more. If someone goes three of those periods of loss, have them go inactive in the Sect. This will allow people to go inactive for emergencies without coming back to all of their work lost.

Esper

@Seir: I completely agree with you.  I did not mean to imply that all duels should be arranged before hand; rather, that agreeing to duel whenever asked reduces the need to be always ganked.  Further, by adhering to respectful behavior (eg, not jumping someone every time you see them outside of the city even though there's no reason not to) you'll foster an environment that will prolong the current amusement of the sect.

Here's what I see it boils down to: right now, the sect is brand new.  People are still adjusting to the thrill of it, and it's fun because it's not a tired conflict mechanism.  In short order, if even the hint of griefing gets associated with it, people will stop wanting to participate, like many other PK incentives, or it will become boring.

Etiquette is the only defense against that happening.

Seir

There's little reason to gank someone more than once. You only get 10 seals (which is chump change) compared to the 100 you get if you fight a Sect member within the year period if you kill them more than once in that one-year period. In short, there's no reason to attack someone repeatedly save to be a prat and the administration has said that they would get involved if that became the case.

Daskalos

I'll agree with the Sect levels being WAY too high. I doubt anyone is past level 1, I doubt anyone has hit 2000 marks yet. It's going to be 2020 before anyone hits the top rank (which, assuming you don't spar any duplicates, is -2000 kills-.

Rivas

I'm still kinda confused as to how you guys are under the impression that it's all about "asking for duels" as opposed to getting jumped or doing the jumping. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it to be about asking and agreeing...but with the marks as high as they are and the fact that all members are automatically secret...I suppose I don't see how you guys are inferring that.

Moirean

From HELP SECT:

- Players within the Sect are open PK to any other player in the Sect, at any time. However, players will be held to a very high standard, and use of this excuse to continually grief a player without cause will earn a loss of points or recognition within the Sect. A requested - and enforced - duel is one thing, repeatedly attacking another member of the Sect is another.

To me, that implies that we should ask. It's common sense, really - fight others how you want to be fought. This really is just an organization for straight up combat for the fun of it, so it seems smart to try to make it that way. Plus, if you gank people, it'll discourage them and you'll run out of people to fight.

I've been using sect reveal myself as kinda an unofficial "I'm in a fighting mood" and don't turn it on when I'm doing other stuff like RP or bashing. That's just how I, personally, have been handling it, but I've been making an effort to reveal myself often and duel when asked. Hopefully that builds up good will so I can get a break when I don't want to fight, without having to sit somewhere hidden - but nobody has been rude to me at all so far. People have all been really cool and polite. I'm sorry to hear that the experience has been otherwise for others.

Daskalos

^^^ The purpose is to encourage good, solid, one on one fights. Sure, I could jump Sect members, but more likely than not, they'll just run. With a duel, they're obligated to stick around one way or the other.

Illikaal

I'm pretty sure if I asked half the people in the Sect for duels, they'd accuse me of one-round(four second) autobashing them with OP Shaman and refuse. Hence, why I don't ask. I just do. 

Also, my only guess about why the points are so high is because the Sect is supposed to be a long term thing. The problem with that is:

1. The rate at which you can collect marks is incredibly slow. 

2. You already have the kind of people in the Sect that are already looking to team other sect members just because they lost a Sect duel. 

3. People apparently afraid to die/lose duels in the Sect, since nobody likes to accept challenges. Unless, as it was stated before, they're sure (or at least think) they're going to win. 

4. The Sect is also supposed to be a secret organization. Because of its nature, its hard to find other Sect members and kill them. Even though you have the one or two morons that miss the point and advertise over the Market channel about wanting to duel Sect members, you still can't ever seem to get enough Duels for points. 

5. Killing someone repeatedly, despite the fact that you're well within your range of gaining Sect Marks, is frowned upon by the Sect/People in general. I don't see why there is already a mechanically reinforced limit as to how many times you SHOULD kill someone who is Sect when people are bitching at you for 'griefing' someone when you've only killed them twice within the span of 48 hours. 

6. When Sect members keep on losing to other Sect members, they're not going to want to fight them anymore. This jumps back to point 3, being that if you 'ask' them for a duel, they're likely going to say no. 

7. Its hard to get Sect duels/fights in the first place because of EVERYONE (myself included) perpetually idling in our cities/havens without the threat of ever being challenged. There's no drawback to it, so why not?

Moirean

The secret organization part I'm a bit confused on. I mean, once you kill or die to another Sect member, that secrecy is pretty much done. And if you don't ever reveal yourself, you're gonna stay at rank 0. I mean there's definitely potential for some sneaky people to keep themselves below the radar, but I think we're pretty quickly going to know who the majority of sect members are. Is this the intended design? Maybe that needs adjusting.

I'm sorry to hear that the Sect membership hasn't been sportsmanlike with you. Everyone has been very fair and good sports with me so far. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Illikaal

Scroll up. Read number 6.

Moirean

What are you replying to? I already expressed that it's unfortunate that people don't want to duel you. I doubt that people are going to want to avoid fighting completely, as that runs completely counter to what the Sect is.

Illikaal

I was responding to your latter point. Everyone is a good sport to begin with, until you keep beating them. At least, this is what I've been experiencing with the Bloodlochian and Spirean Sect members. They apparently even go so far as to accuse you of abusing bugs when they're too ignorant to realize that the "bugs" are how the skill was designed function in the first place.

Some people just like to talk big and make excuses to cope with/avoid repeatedly losing.

Moirean

Well, we'll each just have to cite our own personal experiences. Anecdotes, plural, aren't data and all that.

Seir

I've had nothing but good experiences with Bloodloch and Spirean sect members, even going as so far to revive them after a duel rather than sacrificing the corpse PROVIDED they have a history of being sportsmanlike and civil to me in return.