Rise and Shrine

Illikaal

So, I just wanted to have a discussion with about shrines and defiling. I'll preface this by saying giving the timing, this might seem like a salt induced post, but it has little to do with that really. I feel this has been an ongoing issue since last I played and it's -still- rearing its head.

I'm all for conflict. I absolutely love it. What I don't like is conflict that gets annoying quickly and turns into a battle of attrition. Shrines have been this way for a long time now. All it takes is one person with a chip on their shoulder to go around defiling shrines with absolutely no drawbacks. But Illi, just kill them. 15 deaths later, they're just gonna wait until the people killing them go offline and resume their defiling, or just get people who are willing to help in those endeavors. We're at an all time high of death meaning absolutely nothing, which gives an annoyingly persistent defiler all the leverage in the world because they can just keep defiling as much as they like with no real drawback.

People, no matter who they are, are going to get tired of this extremely quickly. It places all the burden on the defenders of the shrines no matter who they are because the person defiling clearly has nothing to else to do, and people would rather not sit around all day long playing cat and mouse with defilers. Declaring holywar on an entire Order if you even have the manpower to do it is also an awful idea because now 1 person has spurred a holywar that people may not necessarily want.

I seriously think that defilement aura outside of holywars needs addressing. When you have it, there should be a much more severe penalty when you die as a deterrent for people who just like to nonstop defile because they can, and have nothing to better to do. Severely longer death timers, dying with aura x amount of times preventing you from defiling for several hours as examples.

I don't think one person should be able to hold people hostage in such a manner, and simply just 'not doing anything' isn't really a constructive solution either as roleplay demands you defend your territory.

Thoughts, comments, etc. Drop them.

Czcienn

I think there is a big design flaw in that defilement aura is a binary thing that is crippling enough that it makes defiling even a single shrine very unappealing as a way of getting back at a person/order/org/whatever for RP reasons, but for those who don't care, there is actually no reason not to defile 10 more shrines after the first. After all, you're going to have aura anyway, so why not go all the way? In this sense, I feel that defilement aura actually encourages those who were going to be annoying at the expense of others to be even more so, while discouraging more healthy and organic forms of conflict.

The fact that it's 24 hours of logged in time just further deepens the divide between people who would just be afking in a safe place anyway and those who would prefer to engage in the game and not be open PK the whole time.

Saltz

The glaring problem for me is this, despite you can fight/kill the instigator many times, nothing really stops them from running from shrine to shrine for 8 hours straight. (I just checked the log, that is the case.) While that's dedication and commendable to instigate PK for a period that long, it quickly grows tiresome and meaningless when the chase extends over a few hours.

So my two ideas to tackle that:

1.) If you die while you have the defilement aura, you can get a shrine grace that prevents defiling for an hour. That would make it less meaningless to actually kill the instigator and and it'd give a breathing room to defenders to carry on with their Aetolia life.

2.) Once you start defiling a shrine, make it so you can not defile another shrine until your initial target is dusted or an hour passes. So defenders can know where the defiler is going and the defiler has a specific goal instead of whatever they may choose from 99 other shrines.

I like the second idea better because, it doesn't interfere much with the Holy War concept. Solves the endless chase problem and it only really causes problems for the single person attempts. As different people can still defile different shrines to get around it, when numbers start to grow on the conflict.

Nisavi

Saltz said:

The glaring problem for me is this, despite you can fight/kill the instigator many times, nothing really stops them from running from shrine to shrine for 8 hours straight. (I just checked the log, that is the case.) While that's dedication and commendable to instigate PK for a period that long, it quickly grows tiresome and meaningless when the chase extends over a few hours.

So my two ideas to tackle that:

1.) If you die while you have the defilement aura, you can get a shrine grace that prevents defiling for an hour. That would make it less meaningless to actually kill the instigator and and it'd give a breathing room to defenders to carry on with their Aetolia life.

2.) Once you start defiling a shrine, make it so you can not defile another shrine until your initial target is dusted or an hour passes. So defenders can know where the defiler is going and the defiler has a specific goal instead of whatever they may choose from 99 other shrines.

I like the second idea better because, it doesn't interfere much with the Holy War concept. Solves the endless chase problem and it only really causes problems for the single person attempts. As different people can still defile different shrines to get around it, when numbers start to grow on the conflict.

I'm fine with #1 if the death is a 1v1 death, otherwise it makes it too easy to prevent defilement.

Not a fan of #2. I hate defilement and holy wars as much as the next person, but I'm also of the opinion that Orders shouldn't be dropping shrines everywhere if they aren't prepared to defend them. No one is saying you MUST have shrines outside of your orgs.

Saltz

I understand the amount of vulnerable shrines exacerbate the issue here, but even if it was 10 shrines instead of 100 outside the safezones, it'd still be hell of a chase between them. And that would not solve anything in practice.

Fezzix

Outside Holy Wars, people with defile aura who die in pvp outside of ylem auras should have a 24 hour delay before they can approach mirror.

Let's get some real consequences over here.

Rijetta

make defiling cost comms

Rhyot

Speaking as someone who has dusted hundreds of shrines, killed off Order members for attacking me in defense of their shrines, and been hunted down for doing such... I would have to say that I think the system is "alright", but far from perfect.

There's already a penalty to PVP outside of hostility/foci auras. When you die in a PVP fight (not Sect), you lose 2% or 1.65% if you have level 3 soulbind artifact. Die enough times, you're gonna lose endgame, various enhancements, etc. I don't think the answer is to extend death timers because if you're in an Order War and you get killed off 10 times and your death timer is now 1 hour long... you're just not gonna play anymore for the day. (Hell, the PVP loss is why I won't duel people at NoT anymore, but rather will just be Secting/Sparring once I get my offense streamlined again.) If you try to make XP loss be increasingly more detrimental (2%, 4%, 8..16... 32), people are just not going to do Order Wars EVER. Dying with defilement aura X times to stop you from defiling just means that you're limiting the already limited amount of people who can go on the offense in an Order War.

Yes, xp is just a number but some people don't want to see that number drop below a certain point. Some people want it to keep rising. However, it's a factor. "Death means absolutely nothing" was the exact argument/reason that admins even instituted the 2%/5% xp loss on PVP deaths/Deaths inside enemy city. And it's an argumentative phrase that is absolutely irksome because of its rhetorical standpoint.

But let's take out the ideology of it hindering Order Wars. Say that this only affects people OUTSIDE of an Order War.... they still have a chance of exponential xp loss, logging off entirely because a 1 hour death timer, or hell... if you die X times you can't defile anymore (which kind of eliminates the whole purpose of trying to defile shrines). Some people defile shrines for tasks: doing the exact same thing you talk about and just wait until few people are online to notice/can do anything about it. Not to mention... we have a playerbase that has a tendency of overreacting and pushing things past a certain point. If any of the suggested changes were made, you would have those few bad apples that would abuse it until the person just doesn't play anymore. This toxicity would multiply and Aetolia would become like Achaea/Imperian.

Ultimately, I don't think there's any real way to fix this system without getting rid of it entirely. However, getting rid of it entirely eliminates yet another aspect of conflict that can be used to spur on said conflict AND enhance roleplay.

My two cents: Don't want people to dust your shrines? Keep them in cities only and buy the 50 ironcoin dagger that lets you sacrifice corpses randomly wherever you are. No need for shrines. Alternatively, only keep them in places where it's quick to travel to and you don't have to run 120 rooms to get there.

Illikaal

I think there is a middle ground to be found, or at least a bandaid fix. The main issue I have, and always have is how difficult it is to defend shrines vs griefers. Also @Rhyot I think most sub-200 people don't care about exp loss cause they have no intention of spending the amount of time required to get there, ergo death really means nothing to normal people. Also as I mentioned previously, the griefer types in question absolutely do not care about exp loss. 

I simply think there should be mechanics that deter you from doing this. I'm not saying make defiling impossible and give shrines impenetrable defenses, just that it shouldn't be so easy for shrines to be griefed.

Aridas

Just a thought on a take on this, instead of inflicting more exp penalties or specific timed cooldown or a only one shrine at a time thing.
Perhaps give someone a stat the way we have willpower and endurance that drains when defiling shrines.

This way there is a limit to how many they can do at a time before they need to replenish the stat by some means, perhaps replenishing the stat requires time spent at one of their own shrines praying for more power to do said work... or some such.


Just a thought.

Saltz

Aridas said:

Just a thought on a take on this, instead of inflicting more exp penalties or specific timed cooldown or a only one shrine at a time thing.
Perhaps give someone a stat the way we have willpower and endurance that drains when defiling shrines.

This way there is a limit to how many they can do at a time before they need to replenish the stat by some means, perhaps replenishing the stat requires time spent at one of their own shrines praying for more power to do said work... or some such.


Just a thought.

To me the best part of your idea is this: Erecting a shrine taxes willpower and endurance, so why not give its counterpart a similar tax.

Ensis

Saltz said:

To me the best part of your idea is this: Erecting a shrine taxes willpower and endurance, so why not give its counterpart a similar tax.

Hearts and eyes would be put to use. It makes a new market, but doesn't avoid the problem.

Aridas

I realized hearts and eyes would be used if it depended on Willpower and Endurance, this is why I suggested it be put as a new stat of its own to manage.

Ardent

Piety - Your faith has been rewarded in your divine or your ire can be shown to others.

100 per howling, 15 piety to dust a shrine, max of 300 piety in reserve. No way to get more. 10 piety can raise a shrine. To offset the dusting.

Random thought based on what Aridas was suggesting.

Ayastia

Defiling a shrine takes a fair amount of time. How about a simple message that pops up over order Shrine at (Location) being defiled. That way the order members know, something can be done about it, yet the fundamentals do not have to change. I spent a fair amount of time defiling tonight (aya was mad her innocent boar got killed because iesid assumed she did it because it was in the same room ((in Esterport)) as a dusted shrine). It's a lot of waiting around. There is no reason why a single person should be able to take out 5 shrines by themselves with no warning. And of course, during order wars, the warning can be removed. 

Czcienn

That just makes it more annoying for defenders tbh

Ayastia

Czcibor said:

That just makes it more annoying for defenders tbh

The defending of shrines isn't meant to be fun. I see no answer possible where it would ever be considered such. But if gives defenders the opportunity to save a shrine instead of there being no warning just.... poof. Shrine gone. 

Stigandr

Maybe if we had ACTUAL WAR to exercise, defiling shrines would in turn probably not attract as much attention as it does.

Mjoll

take a peek at HELP HOLYWAR

Stigandr

I know of the Holy War option! I'm talking about war war. Secular. Between states. Hitting shrines would, to me, be very boring and a gigantic waste of time, if actual warfare, like the good old days, was an option.

Holy War is boring. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

Tetchta

Stigandr said:

I'm talking about war war. Secular. Between states.

Drystin

I actually really enjoy repelling defilers. I agree though that one person shouldn't be able to dust shrines so fast like it is now. Waking up to a dozen shrines gone is the opposite of fun. 

I think the time it takes for a single person to trash a shrine should be increased per shrine level by A LOT to encourage people to do it in groups or deal with a long duration of sitting there and defiling. 

PK in aetolia (outside of sect which has its own reward system) has a bland history of little reward for your time and defiling/defending shrines is definitely no exception. Some sort of reward system would be nice for defiling, sanctifying, and killing attackers/defenders. 

Fezzix

Ayastia said:

The defending of shrines isn't meant to be fun.

I find it extremely counter intuitive that a mechanical aspect of a game that we play for fun isn't supposed to be fun.

Ayastia

Fezzix said:

The defending of shrines isn't meant to be fun.

I find it extremely counter intuitive that a mechanical aspect of a game that we play for fun isn't supposed to be fun.

I mean... I agree but... defending shrines is purely reactional and let's face it. Losing a shrine means nothing but about 15 minutes of idle time to reraise it.  It is more of an RP issue, in my opinion, than mechanical. 

Aridas

And having it message the order means nothing if you wait for them to log off to do it.

Drystin

Losing a shrine means nothing but about 15 minutes of idle time to reraise it.

My point exactly. It's currently a pointless, no incentive system for both sides of the conflict.

Rhyot

Ehtias