Legacy Class Discussion

Xavin

Yes, the cabalist class has problems. But I'm pretty sure you're not quite hitting the nail on the head. You have a few skills that rely on your target's demeanor towards you. That would be the point of elicit feelings, from what I understand.

You're also glossing over how amazing a passive skillset domination actually is. In domination alone you have passive hindering, limb breaks, random afflictions, heavy-ish damage, escape and utility, hunger and more.

I'm not denying that cabalist has problems. But let's get one thing straight. They do not, by any means, have two skillsets that are useless.

Illikaal

Calipso said:

hmm, while thinking over cabalist class, a thought occurred to me: It isnt really even a class.

As a friend of mine put it: It is just an Indorani specialization.

Take their skills for example. Both necromancy and domination are much more tailored to Indorani in almost every way, most skills in necromancy almost having no purpose for the Cabalist. Domination is no exception, even just now I was discussing chaos hound with someone and how its attacks are rather weak,  I was told its main priority  is breaking shields which is an advantage for Indorani with tarot-linking a doppelganger, other than that, no real use.

Now let's look at Numerology. Numerology is perhaps one of the most untouched and messiest skills in the game, with several abilities that generally make no sense to exist or have no use (elicit feelings? switch? weakening?), it is perhaps equal to Hematurgy in skills abandoned and left somewhere on a shelf to collect dust.  Also tweak is just horribly annoying -.-

So in conclusion, the Cabalist class has 2 skills that werent even created for it and do not mesh well together, and 1 skill that is ancient and almost unusable. Dare I ask, why leave the class? Should it just be deleted and focus be placed upon other things?

Edit: To further explain upon Necromancy's ill-use with a Cabalist, here are some examples. Vivisect is an instantkill of a cabalist, yet the cabalist has no possible setup to lock someone down to break all 4 limbs to Vivisect, the only things are their disposal is Shrivel and Crone, Indorani have other abilities such as warrior (even so vivisect is still very hard). Bone Helm and Bone Dagger are inaccessible to the cabalist, being Indorani only. Putrefaction, the only defensive ability in Necromancy, was removed  from cabalists and given to indorani only, the reason being (it is too much defense with their current kit), meaning it didnt fit in with the current crazy puzzle that was their skills.

Ezrax said:

Pretty much what Illidan said. Synergy is important. Cabalists were born of the old era when 'Give some guys 1 new skillset with 2 old ones' was the norm, without any effort to make them work together.

We've covered this. Still, just because their skills don't synergize doesn't suddenly make them...not a class. They are also by no means 'an Indorani specialization' First off, the Warrior tarot was not created until just recently as in the past 1-2 years. It hasn't been there since the beginning, so therefore, saying that 'the other two skills were built for indorani' is subjective. Cabalists, Infernals, and Indorani all shared Necromancy, and they all shared Putrefaction until someone had enough sense to say "Oh hey, all three of these classes don't exactly need it."  Indorani didn't really have any major defensive skills, so they were permitted to keep it. Cabalists with link + Putrefaction = Immortal Cabalists. The same went for Infernals with Fullplate + Putrefaction. I remember that time I fought was fighting the entire Infernal guild during the Tyriik Crusade, and I could never kill any of them because even old school Druid maul with level 3 knuckles only did all of 400ish damage every 2 seconds to them. If anything, Necromancy catered to Infernals the best as all they had to do was v-lock, and then break the limbs for vivisect.

And for the love of god, if you have any legitimate questions about combat/classes, Tina would be the last person on this planet that anyone should ask for advice. I'd stop taking it from her, if I were you. The liaisons would be the best choice for anything like that, honestly. But no good ever comes from asking someone, who has no idea what they're talking about, a relevant question regarding combat. 

Calipso

Xavin said:

Yes, the cabalist class has problems. But I'm pretty sure you're not quite hitting the nail on the head. You have a few skills that rely on your target's demeanor towards you. That would be the point of elicit feelings, from what I understand.

You're also glossing over how amazing a passive skillset domination actually is. In domination alone you have passive hindering, limb breaks, random afflictions, heavy-ish damage, escape and utility, hunger and more.

I'm not denying that cabalist has problems. But let's get one thing straight. They do not, by any means, have two skillsets that are useless.

Elicit feelings once was used to sense the target's demeanor in order to to capitalize upon tweaking them to a certain alignment (afaik), however ever since that tactic was changed within Numerology, elicit feelings currently just tells you if the person in the room has you on ally or enemy.

it is true, Domination is very useful, but cabalists have no real way to capitalize on it. Take for example the passives you mentioned: Limb-break, no use since Vivisect isnt really an option. moderate-damage (it isnt very heavy), cabalists have one of the weakest base attacks in the game currently. Hindering, though good to try and keep the target down, it generally doesnt assist them since it doesnt slow down the target's herb consumption, it is much more tailored towards Indorani with Wheel.

Utility I cannot deny, if anything cabalists currently have alot of utility.


edit: If not perhaps too much utility. ----> Direcall.

Illikaal

Even though you they all fall under the classification of 'utility', they're escape skills. That is likely the biggest problem with Cabalists and Indorani both, being that they each have 4 escape skills, some of which are likely the most powerful existing in the game. 

Seir

It's pretty clear that Indorani and Cabalists lack an offense, but their survivability is through the roof. At least, this is the case more so with Indorani than Cabalist but Cabalists have some nice things as well such as Link and Oneness.

Indorani survivability is a little out of hand which is probably justifiable at the moment because they lack any offense short of gimmicky kills that generally rely upon hunger or hoping your enemy didn't see you throw death tarot just now. What's unfortunate is that the way Indorani is designed means that buffing something usually means putting it over the top, like the old warrior tarot. I will say this, people everywhere will rejoice when Hanged Man tarot is finally taken behind the shed and shot with a hunting rifle. It's a powerful hinder that alone can undo offenses against a class that already has a lot of survivability but I can't really see downgrading Indorani in any shape or form at the moment. The class is presently hurting way too much for it.

Xavin

The way I see it, there are three major areas to consider as far as class balance is concerned: survivability, 1v1 ability, and group ability. No one class should excel at all three of these. If we look at some of the legacy classes, we can see how they rate in these three areas. I'll start with mage to shift the focus away from cabalists.

Mages -
1v1 ability: low to moderate. Ascendril (and Sciomancers) rely on brute force via damage, usually burst damage through holocaust/singularity, or they rely on gimmicks - brands and retardation vibe. As a result, if you can simply tank their damage and disrupt their attempts to gimmick you to death, you're golden.

Survivability: moderate to moderate-high. Both Ascendril and Sciomancers are capable of achieving good damage reduction via audit. They also have access to reflection which, if used intelligently, can be a very good defensive skill. Their passives (vibes, elementals and aquasphere for ascendril) can help delay an opponent as well.

Group Ability: high. Both breeds of mage are invaluable in group combat. Their vibrations hit large groups and they do bring high damage to encounters. In addition, an unscrupulous mage could wipe both sides of an encounter if they can set up their holo/singularity chain right. If they can give their allies enough warning this could end up simply devastating their opposition.


Now let's look at Cabalists.

1v1 ability: Low. Everyone knows that Cabalist 1v1 offense is bad. If you can manage tweaks, you're probably not going to die even if they can use their gimmicky abilities to great effect.

Survivability: High to Astronomical. Link is the name of the game here. On top of that, they have several useful defensive abilities, the potential for fairly high damage reduction through high audit scores and four separate escape skills of varied types. I think it is fair to say that if a cabalist doesn't -want- to get pk'd, they probably aren't going to.

Group ability: Moderate to High. This is likely a point of contention, but I personally feel that cabalists are an amazing part of a group, especially if there is more than one of them or they are alongside an Indorani or two. Domination ents can stack, so multiple sets on a single target can add up to some nasty effects. Unravels can also be pulled off much easier if you have a group of cabalists tweaking away, though it requires coordination.

---

Granted, I do make some generalizations, but you can see where I'm going with these sorts of evaluations.

Seir

I'd pretty much say Xavin's evaluations are on the ball here. Group ability for a Cabalist is debatable but the stacking entourages is a pretty strong factor.

Calipso

The day Tweak and Unraveled are changed for some form of justifiable (and frankly fun ) combos is the day i party hard.


Also i'd like to point out something about Cabalist group combat. A Cabalist has no hinder abilities (unlike indorani with hangedman) and ever since Aeon was changed, they cant add much to a group. I tend to stand there either Decaying or tossing some Madness in. To stand there and try to toss Tweaks in a group is a big waste of time of offensive-power because if you were able to place 12 afflictions and 3 disturbs in all that time without complication, then the target would have just died easier by any other offensive, probably Behead. Domination ents are useful in groups sure..but I really feel like they are being over-estimated here. The only good ones are crone, bubonis and chimera, the others generally dont do much. gremlin now and then pushes you off balance for 0.3 seconds, worm makes you get slightly hungrier, chaos minion stands there looking pretty, storm randomly attacks with 3 different types of damage at around 300 per, etc. Also a quick Luminary rite or Shaman exorcism sends those minions packing. I tend to find myself suddenly with half my ents missing in a fight rather than them stacking.

Seir

Aeon during a group fight still has a lot of potential. That brief delay can really set a person back when getting focused on.

You also have the ability to destroy rites (something few classes can do).

You also have Doppleganger which, while not as overbearing as it once was, is still potent with Decay/Gravechill.

You also have good ol' pit.

I can think of quite a few uses for chaos hound during combat over long distances.

Yeah, you're not on the same level as other classes. However, a Cabalist in group combat is more of a support role.

Illikaal

The gremlin has never thrown you off balance for .3 seconds for as long as. It's always been a 2 second balance. I don't even. Firelord does insane damage in groups. Like how those 3 firelords alone killed Rehan that one time (someone find that log!). You're also vastly underrating the power of decay with Gravechill up in groups. It has incredibly decent damage. Also saying that Aeon doesn't add much to a group is silly. Clearly you've never fought in retardation (Looking at you, Ellenia.) Sticking Aeon on someone in a group while your teammates are hammering on them creates a pretty big window of opportunity for your allies, as you're slowing down their curing time. Even with mild coordination, you could have an ally stick them with asthma the moment you land Aeon on them, to keep it on that much longer. 

Do your homework sometime. 

Edit: aiorjtgaweriojg. Get out Seir!

Xavin

The only thing I really want to say on the matter of cabalists right now, and this applies to a lot of classes at times, is that there seems like there is some misconceptions on the part of the people complaining about it. I don't know if it's willful misrepresentation of what the class is capable of or just ignorance of what the class can do. But it seems that the majority of the time when someone says 'X class is underpowered' they're not looking at the class' whole allotment of abilities, but rather looking at just a small portion.

Aetolia's classes are, in general, pretty robust. There aren't many that don't fill some sort of niche in combat, particularly in the group setting. I would recommend really sitting down and learning -everything- your class can do and thinking of unique ways to stack it with others.

Calipso

Xavin said:

The only thing I really want to say on the matter of cabalists right now, and this applies to a lot of classes at times, is that there seems like there is some misconceptions on the part of the people complaining about it. I don't know if it's willful misrepresentation of what the class is capable of or just ignorance of what the class can do. But it seems that the majority of the time when someone says 'X class is underpowered' they're not looking at the class' whole allotment of abilities, but rather looking at just a small portion.

Aetolia's classes are, in general, pretty robust. There aren't many that don't fill some sort of niche in combat, particularly in the group setting. I would recommend really sitting down and learning -everything- your class can do and thinking of unique ways to stack it with others.

mmm you know what, I agree.

I hereby extend my hand out to the combatants of the game that state Cabalist is in a fine condition to come and make their own cabbie character and test the ropes themselves. If you're able to get up to the 1st-10th combat rankings, i'll never say cabilists need a buff again.

Xavin

Oh for crying out loud. I'm starting to think you don't even read posts.

Let me put it bluntly. You are underplaying the strengths of your class. No one is saying that cabalist doesn't have problems. However, you do not get to have an exceptionally strong defence, myriad utilities, good group combat abilities, several 'oh crap gotta get out' escape modes AND an amazing 1v1 offense. That's just not how balance works.

Calipso

Xavin said:

Oh for crying out loud. I'm starting to think you don't even read posts.

Let me put it bluntly. You are underplaying the strengths of your class. No one is saying that cabalist doesn't have problems. However, you do not get to have an exceptionally strong defence, myriad utilities, good group combat abilities, several 'oh crap gotta get out' escape modes AND an amazing 1v1 offense. That's just not how balance works.

Let me enlighten you on something. Telling another class (which you more than likely have never touched) that "they are fine as is" is equal to a child pointing at a mathematical therom and saying "that isnt correct". Your points though valid as to cabalists in a general sense, are -not- to be taken in consideration on balance because frankly I -hiiiiighly- doubt you even know how the class works. The last time I had a discussion with someone (not a cabalist) about Cabalists combat, they made me almost fall from my chair from how incredibly wrong they believed the class works, and this was "praise be all combat" Illidan. No, your opinion is not taken here, which was my point above in a more sarcastic tone.

Someone from an enemy organization stating "They are fine, they just dont know it" is as ignorant as it gets.

Kog

Cabalist 1v1 is boring, sure, but it isn't really super underpowered. I played Cabalist in a group fight scenario, and sure you won't carry the team. But you're also like impossible to kill (I had like 12k health or so as mine, non-endgame) and was throwing out decent damage decays without artifacts. That+ents alone is enough to be a real pain. Plus, you know, if you die as Cabalist they either brought 8 million people or you screwed up.

...Also how are you telling people they don't know you, man, when you have no idea? Maybe Xavin, 3 RL years ago, was the top-tier Cabalist combatant. Or maybe Illidan is actually Tina too, and has been multiplaying all this time (disclaimer: MODS THIS IS A JOKE. I AM NOT ALT SPECULATING, DO NOT BAN ME LIKE ACHAEA'S DID, PLEASE). How long have you spent looking at aff routes open to you? How often do you jump into the arena 1v1 and fight?

And, finally:

Clouser Arcan, The Unraveler

<snip>

Fame:

He has been ranked #1 in the combat rankings.

^Played cabalist

Illikaal

Calipso said:

Xavin said:

Oh for crying out loud. I'm starting to think you don't even read posts.

Let me put it bluntly. You are underplaying the strengths of your class. No one is saying that cabalist doesn't have problems. However, you do not get to have an exceptionally strong defence, myriad utilities, good group combat abilities, several 'oh crap gotta get out' escape modes AND an amazing 1v1 offense. That's just not how balance works.

Let me enlighten you on something. Telling another class (which you more than likely have never touched) that "they are fine as is" is equal to a child pointing at a mathematical therom and saying "that isnt correct". Your points though valid as to cabalists in a general sense, are -not- to be taken in consideration on balance because frankly I -hiiiiighly- doubt you even know how the class works. The last time I had a discussion with someone (not a cabalist) about Cabalists combat, they made me almost fall from my chair from how incredibly wrong they believed the class works, and this was "praise be all combat" Illidan. No, your opinion is not taken here, which was my point above in a more sarcastic tone.

Someone from an enemy organization stating "They are fine, they just dont know it" is as ignorant as it gets.

Stop posting. Seriously. 

And i'd LOVE for you to enlighten me on what I was wrong about regarding Cabalists. Please, tell me all mighty knowing didn't-get-a-single-report-advanced-because-she-knows-everything-about-cabalists-and-the-liaisons-are-stupid-and-wrong Calipso. 

Edit: @Kog Leddem know papi.

Areka

Calipso, the attitude really isn't necessary. You repeatedly don't do your homework, and aren't listening to the feedback you're given save for cocky 'mm yeah you're right but I'm going to completely ignore everything you've said save for the hand-selected piece that supports my case out of context.'. Please, stop. Rather than the classes's issues actually being discussed, the conversation gets side-tracked by people trying to correct you and you sticking your fingers in your ears at the same time professing expertise which you simply do not have.

The liaisons and combatants of this community would love to help hash out ideas and ways to improve upon the forte in which they play, and all of its delicious and confusing complexities. This requires you to stop ignoring them.

Xavin

I lol'd Kog. Hard.


But you know what, I'll come out and say it. I've never pursued a cabalist alt for all that long. The class simply didn't interest me. But you don't have to have myriad experience with a class to be able to form a decent opinion on its strengths and weaknesses. All it takes is a solid understanding of how aetolian combat works, the ability to sit down and test things and the patience to review logs when they are available.

I've been involved in the balancing process for longer than you might think here. I might not be the greatest combatant in the game, but I know a thing or two about how to judge class balance. And everything Kog says about the class is true.

You're not going to be a powerhouse, but you will be very strong defensively.

Edit: And regarding the combat rankings? They're basically a joke. The majority of active combatants don't bother with them.

Kog

Yay, new sig. Thanks, @Xavin.

...Also just noticed: You'll love elicit feelings when you read some of your abilities - some only work if they have you allied, some have extra effects if you're enemied, and you can swap that stuff around. Might want to make a tracker or something.

Illikaal

I'm honestly not sure if Calipso is genuinely remedial, or she keeps confusing the skills and combat in this game with Achaea. This whole attitude of "lol i know what i'm talking about bros" when you clearly don't is completely and utterly blowing my mind. 

Daskalos

Combat rankings don't mean squat. Once upon a time they did, but lately? Nope. Most of us got the honors line and GTFO'd, and I did it back before the resets!

Two comments, though:

1) Calipso, I've only ever seen you run from fights or fight in teams - how can you even begin to judge the strengths and weaknesses of the class when you yourself haven't used them, other than some theorycraft? Do you think you should be able to push a button and beat top tier combatants who have spent hundreds of hours working on their craft?

2) Not every class can do everything. Cabalists have a lot more ranged potential than I have as a Luminary, which is to say none. You're playing a class that is strong individually against a lot of people, but probably won't be enough to push against the top tier, which is OK because Luminary faces some of the same problems. But your support and utility skills? You're probably one of the best in the game.

3) And I guess this is my last comment here, but... if you hate the class so much, why are you playing it? With multiclassing, it's possible to be of Class A while being in Guild B.

Calipso

Kog said:

Cabalist 1v1 is boring, sure, but it isn't really super underpowered. I played Cabalist in a group fight scenario, and sure you won't carry the team. But you're also like impossible to kill (I had like 12k health or so as mine, non-endgame) and was throwing out decent damage decays without artifacts. That+ents alone is enough to be a real pain. Plus, you know, if you die as Cabalist they either brought 8 million people or you screwed up.

...Also how are you telling people they don't know you, man, when you have no idea? Maybe Xavin, 3 RL years ago, was the top-tier Cabalist combatant. Or maybe Illidan is actually Tina too, and has been multiplaying all this time (disclaimer: MODS THIS IS A JOKE. I AM NOT ALT SPECULATING, DO NOT BAN ME LIKE ACHAEA'S DID, PLEASE). How long have you spent looking at aff routes open to you? How often do you jump into the arena 1v1 and fight?

And, finally:

Clouser Arcan, The Unraveler

<snip>

Fame:

He has been ranked #1 in the combat rankings.

^Played cabalist

Clouser's cabalist set was different from the current set. Back then he didnt have the horrid function of tweak 4 times, disturb if possible, rinse repeat.

Calipso

Kog said:

Yay, new sig. Thanks, @Xavin.

...Also just noticed: You'll love elicit feelings when you read some of your abilities - some only work if they have you allied, some have extra effects if you're enemied, and you can swap that stuff around. Might want to make a tracker or something.

The use of Ally and Enemy in numerology only affects Singularity which summons allies...and that is about it. You may be looking at an old numerology set when Ally/enemy influenced abilities existed.

Xavin

It is my understanding that the class was actually -harder- to use when clouser was doing it, as long as you were fighting someone competent. But I could be wrong. That said, there were people excelling with the class as it currently is

Ilyon

Calipso said:

Clouser's cabalist set was different from the current set. Back then he didnt have the horrid function of tweak 4 times, disturb if possible, rinse repeat.

He did.

Calipso

Areka said:

Calipso, the attitude really isn't necessary. You repeatedly don't do your homework, and aren't listening to the feedback you're given save for cocky 'mm yeah you're right but I'm going to completely ignore everything you've said save for the hand-selected piece that supports my case out of context.'. Please, stop. Rather than the classes's issues actually being discussed, the conversation gets side-tracked by people trying to correct you and you sticking your fingers in your ears at the same time professing expertise which you simply do not have.

The liaisons and combatants of this community would love to help hash out ideas and ways to improve upon the forte in which they play, and all of its delicious and confusing complexities. This requires you to stop ignoring them.

Frankly Areka I would be listening to the 'combatants' that are 'attempting' to give input...but honestly can you really tell me that someone like Illidan and Daskalos..are attempting to give advice? There is a reason they are on "top 10 most IGNOREd people". As for expertise, combat is what I do, wherever I go. I know how it works and I know balance and imbalance.

Honestly, the only positive input i've ever gotten from people about balance and class abilities was discussions with Ilyon, Tina, Moirean (a bit) and a few others here and there. Other than that, i've only ever gotten "Cabalist is fine because they have domination"..

Also @Illidan if you recall, your idea of Cabalist combat back then was "All you need is 4 of one tweak-afflict set, then you can use disturb them 3 times with 3 different disturbs. What? No you dont need 2 more tweak sets, dont listen to those noncoms.".

Haven

Calipso said:

Kog said:

Cabalist 1v1 is boring, sure, but it isn't really super underpowered. I played Cabalist in a group fight scenario, and sure you won't carry the team. But you're also like impossible to kill (I had like 12k health or so as mine, non-endgame) and was throwing out decent damage decays without artifacts. That+ents alone is enough to be a real pain. Plus, you know, if you die as Cabalist they either brought 8 million people or you screwed up.

...Also how are you telling people they don't know you, man, when you have no idea? Maybe Xavin, 3 RL years ago, was the top-tier Cabalist combatant. Or maybe Illidan is actually Tina too, and has been multiplaying all this time (disclaimer: MODS THIS IS A JOKE. I AM NOT ALT SPECULATING, DO NOT BAN ME LIKE ACHAEA'S DID, PLEASE). How long have you spent looking at aff routes open to you? How often do you jump into the arena 1v1 and fight?

And, finally:

Clouser Arcan, The Unraveler

<snip>

Fame:

He has been ranked #1 in the combat rankings.

^Played cabalist

Clouser's cabalist set was different from the current set. Back then he didnt have the horrid function of tweak 4 times, disturb if possible, rinse repeat.

Actually, Clouser has used both sets of skills successfully. But we're all getting sidetracked.

No one is saying the Cabalists are perfect and do not need looking at. No one is saying that the Cabalists do not need buffs at all. What they're saying is your approach is wrong. They're saying that the class is not as weak as you make it out to be. Now can you please get past that and work with the liaisons to brainstorm adequate solutions for the class you obviously care a lot about?

Areka

You aren't being told that they're 'fine' because they have domination - you're being told that they aren't as broken as you are making it out to be, and that while there are issues within the class, you have more options than you have been exploring/utilizing. Those are two very different things. You are hearing what you want to hear rather than what is being said.

Illikaal

Calipso said:

Areka said:

Calipso, the attitude really isn't necessary. You repeatedly don't do your homework, and aren't listening to the feedback you're given save for cocky 'mm yeah you're right but I'm going to completely ignore everything you've said save for the hand-selected piece that supports my case out of context.'. Please, stop. Rather than the classes's issues actually being discussed, the conversation gets side-tracked by people trying to correct you and you sticking your fingers in your ears at the same time professing expertise which you simply do not have.

The liaisons and combatants of this community would love to help hash out ideas and ways to improve upon the forte in which they play, and all of its delicious and confusing complexities. This requires you to stop ignoring them.

Frankly Areka I would be listening to the 'combatants' that are 'attempting' to give input...but honestly can you really tell me that someone like Illidan and Daskalos..are attempting to give advice? There is a reason they are on "top 10 most IGNOREd people". As for expertise, combat is what I do, wherever I go. I know how it works and I know balance and imbalance.

Honestly, the only positive input i've ever gotten from people about balance and class abilities was discussions with Ilyon, Tina, Moirean (a bit) and a few others here and there. Other than that, i've only ever gotten "Cabalist is fine because they have domination"..

Also @Illidan if you recall, your idea of Cabalist combat back then was "All you need is 4 of one tweak-afflict set, then you can use disturb them 3 times with 3 different disturbs. What? No you dont need 2 more tweak sets, dont listen to those noncoms.".

Yeah. I'm just convinced you have some sort of reading disorder or something, so I'll go ahead and repeat this in front of witnesses. 

I said that I know for SURE that you need all 4 affs from one tweak tree to land a disturb. I said I was NOT sure if you could land multiple disturbs from the same tree being used. I said that I was GUESSING that you could land multiple disturbs from the same tree, as I ever only recall Clouser spamming the hell out of the bellwort tree. To put it in plain english, the bits i was NOT sure about or GUESSING at were simply that - guesses. In which case, that was leaving room for you to find out on your own, as I have not looked at the tweak skillset. I simply made these observations on the fly while in combat. Thanks. 

I also don't know how many times I have to tell you to stop listening to any combat advice that Tina gives you, as she doesn't know very much about it herself. S(he) repeatedly comes up with the most inconsistent arguments, which include "New Teradrim are the easiest class in the game to get kills with, which is why I don't use it, because I want a challenge." That RAPIDLY transitioned into "New Teradrim don't have any viable kill routes and its impossible to get kills with them. This class sucks because its terribly designed." My absolute favorite "There's a bug with the Shaman's stormtouched affliction that reduces your lightning audit to nothing." When in fact, that's exactly how the skill is supposed to function. There was also the incredibly famous "Illidan abuses his artifacts to create a 1 round autobash (4 seconds) to kill anyone." when anyone who's ever even used the Shaman class knows that it isn't the case. She has also told a slew of lies on a very good friend of mine, claiming she coded up his system for him, which she didn't, and that he'd 'ragequit' the game under some incredibly false pretenses. In fact, he still plays quite frequently. Maybe her(his) stupidity is rubbing off on you, and you need to displace yourself from it. 

Dhar

Hey, guys. Let's not trash another topic.

Keep it civil. If you're frustrated, just ignore the thread for awhile.