Endgame flavor

TeaniTeani Shadow MistressSwedenMember Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
Let me start by admitting that I am "one of those people". I really dislike havens, with heavy emphasis on the word 'really'. I am also disappointed in the changes to how Endgame races are achieved.

My reasons for this are many, but let me present a few. I have spoilered my discussion parts to make it a bit more TLDR-friendly. Feel free to comment with your own ideas or poke holes in this one. I just thought I'd throw it out there.

Havens:
1. The lore connected to them is not very consistent, and it can be difficult to try to justify certain things connected to them.

It's part of your mind, something of a "Sherlock Holmian" mind palace, but you can invite others in person, sort of like a virtual group chatroom in a fantasy setting? Fantasy games are good that way, as they can break free from conventional stuff, but part of it makes me feel like it's a bit of a stretch, like when you go in there and come out again with physical items created inside your mind. (Enchantment rooms, forges and libraries are all possible to set up in a haven, for example)


2. Havens do not promote spontaneous interaction, despite the addition of shells that can be shouted at or wrenched.

Sure, it is nice to have a place to retreat to for a while, and people can reach you in other ways, but most people have taken to returning to their havens in remote or more inaccessible locations to be left alone. I'd say that is what havens are there for. You want some peace and quiet? Go relax in your mind, daydream for a bit, meditate, and then return all fresh and stuff.

Things in this game should promote interaction, not provide more ways to isolate. Sure, there should be ways for people to step away from the public eye, but perhaps in a way that makes more sense than inviting someone else into their brain?


3. Haven points keep piling up, without giving people a chance to use them for something that feels important.

Expanding on a haven's room count, when it's an isolated area, can feel pointless. However, when you have all the racial skills available, what else should you be doing with your points?


Proposal:
I have no idea how to fix havens, other than to suggest to remove them or turn them into single rooms for personal escape.
Let's say you want to create an Ice Queen of the North, so when you become Endgame, you choose Ice as your preference. This means that as you progress and earn "haven points", you are able to choose from ice-related flavor stuff, to further promote your change towards regal status in the north.
The "Flavor List" would be similar to the "Raceskill List" we see today, only with messages and flavor things added. For example, you could get access to certain premote things, like "ICESNAP", which shows as you snapping your fingers and creating a spark of snowflakes (while "FIRESNAP" would show as a spark of fire instead, and "WATERFLICK" would, annoyingly, flick a few drops of water in someone's direction). It could also give access to other kinds of flavor, like a skill called "CHILL", which would make the room feel a bit colder for a short while.


I am fully aware that a lot of these things are used for trade and economy, but I do believe it would make sense to add some of this as part of the progression system. Naturally, there are probably a lot more things to add, but I thought I would suggest something.

Endgame races:

We currently have three generic endgame races in the game:
Yeleni - the Hollow Form of Tekal being filled up with life essence.
Azudim - the Hollow Form of Tekal being filled up with death essence.
Idreth - the individual's own reforming of the Hollow Form to transcend the mortal shell.

Without Divine interaction, there feels like there's no reason behind the choices of the various forms.

Why even have three races if there's no real difference in how they can be obtained? The first two races made a little more sense back when one had to approach a deity to be turned into these new races. You'd generally get some kind of quest, and when completing it, the deity would grant some of Their essence for you to transcend into this elevated form. Still, there was the difficulty in interpreting where Undeath fit into it all, but that was something that could be roleplayed out to make sense. Then came the l introduction of the Idreth, which was meant to negate the requirement of Divine interaction. It gave people the option of just getting to Endgame without the fuss.

The removal of the requirement for Divine interaction made the connection to essense feel irrelevant, and the hard work others had put in to gain these by questing for their respective Divine's attention and favor was somehow lost in the past. Those quests made for excellent character building, and this is, after all, a Roleplaying game, so character development should be promoted.


Proposal:
Add in separate Endgame races for the different deities, that people can aspire towards.

Make them connected to their deity, and change/shift depending on Their stance. Allow said deity to rip them apart if they no longer deserve said form, making it necessary for them to reform as an ordinary Idreth when returning from the Halls. It should be seen as a privilege, something obtained after hard work has been put in.

It doesn't have to be much, or have a lot of stuff added to it, even though that's certainly something that can be added and should be possible. Look at how Chiav works, which is a good example of what could be accomplished that adds a lot of flavor for those who are devoted to a certain Divine.





NaosSavasBenedictoCaynSigrunGalileiEscelika

Comments

  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere! Member Posts: 803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Room Room Name Brief Description Base Room Points
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    26537 BENEDICTOHAVEN1 A shimmering platfor BENEDICTOHAVEN1 27
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Used Points: 27 (67) Remaining Points: 127
    (Leaders): Tiur says, "I'll remember not to delete you when the time comes, Bene. Good people."

    CaynSeurimas
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 490 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    So, I think this is a matter of perspective.


    You see the Havens as an extension of the mind, a memory palace if you will. I see it as just another plane of existence that leaves behind an afterimage of you (which is why you can see the people who go into their havens in cities or other areas). I see it as this because you can see when your enemies enter the area, which implies another plane of existence. Yes, haven points keep piling up, but that's on the onus of the individual. If they want to have a one room haven that does it all so be it. Maybe some want to build a castle in their own plane of existence. Maybe some want to build a city, or an island, etc. Let them, this endorses THEIR RP and let's them have fun without having to rely on others to make the game fun for them (even though I'm sure they enjoy that as well).


    Havens provide an alternative to the sneaky, nosey, and otherwise undesirables from getting involved of whatever RP you want to do (because let's be real... there -are- people who will troll you just to troll you because that's how -they- want to play). There are also people who will use whatever locations they see you at and try to spread rumors and discredit your character, even if you're doing nothing wrong. It doesn't matter that Benedicto is absolutely loyal to Aloli, "I saw him with /insert 5 other women's name here/ and so he -must- be cheating on her. And because my perception is my reality, I'm going to spread rumors EVERYWHERE to EVERYONE to make sure everyone knows Benedicto is a mongrel." That's not very fair now, is it? And we all know players like this very much so exist in this game. Sorry for picking on you, Benedicto (you're just the one who posted before me and your vacation picture wouldn't go away. LOL <3).


    Lastly, tying endgame races to deities seems very sketch. People change deities all the time, deities die all the time (RIP 11 dead gods) and I imagine as time goes on more will die and take their place. Ultimately this would be a slap in the face to the god. You're a Chakrasulian but have the shell of an Iosian? HAHA!!! Better learn to get rekt son! REPEATEDLY! You're a Haernite but have the race of a Bamathian? GET unicorns REKT!! This provides no great benefit other than another avenue for which players to grief other players. The whole Idreth/Yeleni/Azudim fits the lore perfectly. You either accept life, stay neutral, or accept death (Spirit/Neutral/Shadow).


    You're right that havens don't provide spontaneous interactions. But that's what RPWHO was made for... for those individuals who -DO- want spontaneous RP interactions. While I dislike those who AFK/idle (even though I'm guilty of it myself sometimes) and those who hide in havens to escape the ideology of "Talk unicorns/get hit", the pros fair outweigh the cons.


    Room Room Name Brief Description Base Room Points
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    45356 ZSADISTHAVEN1 A darkly painted foy ZSADISTHAVEN1 9
    53804 zsadisthaven2 The Shadows Study ZSADISTHAVEN1 6
    59530 zsadisthaven3 Within the unformed ZSADISTHAVEN1 8
    62029 zsadisthaven4 Shadow's Escape ZSADISTHAVEN1 7
    66642 zsadisthaven5 Within the unformed ZSADISTHAVEN1 1
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Used Points: 31 (43) Remaining Points: 383


    ZantilnTenshyoKarhast
  • SigrunSigrun Member Posts: 3
    I want to revisit the olden ways of Yeleni and Azudim, where you were given a task by a Divine, performed the task, offered some essence and was given either Yeleni for Spirit side or Azudim for Shadow side. Now, I know there's not always volunteers enough to fill up the Divine rolls, but that could be worked around. You could either ask for another Divine to help you, as long as it is in your tether, you can wait until your Divine's roll is filled again, or perhaps there could be a way to contact admins if there is no current Divine at the tether at all, in order for someone to hop on a High priest to get stuff rolling.
    I also recognize the issue with how some Divine rolls are played. Dhar, for example, don't mind the Azudim since they embrace death and that's sortof His thing. I am sure there are Shadow Divines who might be able to lean more towards Yeleni as well. Perhaps, due to this, there could be some sort of toggle for the Divines in order to choose if they want to grant Yeleni or Azudim, which can only be changed if the Divine recieves a new player. Most will probably not be changed at all, but the opportunity could be there in case the Divine takes on a new direction for some reason.
    In short, my vote is for giving the Azudim and Yeleni ascensions back to the Divine so they could feel a bit more special. If you don't want to rely on a Divine, you can always choose Idreth.
    TeaniBenedictoArbre
  • TenshyoTenshyo Member Posts: 409 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with @Rhyot on just about everything. Which is rare! 

    Especially on the parts of people spreading horrifically false rumors that are blatantly untrue and unfounded. Granted it's roleplay and still a valid thing to do, it does get very, very taxing and annoying to deal with. (As that situation happen(s) more often than I care to admit).

    If I remember correctly, or at least in part, I think Endgame races were changed to be at the players discretion BECAUSE of notable lacks in various Gods being filled. Though the OPTION of someone taking the old route.

  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That was part of the reason for the change, if I remember. That said, tying Azudim/Yeleni back to gods wouldn't be a terrible thing now that we have yeleni. Or making special endgame forms tied to gods that would then go away if you left/were removed from their congregation or order. As long as there is at least one endgame form available that does not require admin interaction, I don't see a problem.

    Sigrun
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Rhyot
    All good points, even though we might disagree on some of them. I understand that some people want to retreat to havens for privacy reasons, but I still feel like this shouldn't be promoted as much as it is (being the major reward aside from augmentation that you get from Endgame). I would at least want there to be just as much to gain by placing your haven points towards character development as in rooms hidden away from potential interaction. With that said, sure, keep the havens, and let people build their mind palaces if they want.

    And true, RPWHO was a really good addition that will help with the interaction part.



    As for Deity races, I disagree completely. A few scenarios for those who gain a new form:
    For the loyal ones:
    Deity is around and you serve happily ever after. - RP opportunity: people know you have done good by that deity. Yay, go you!
    Deity falls dormant or dies. - nothing really changes. RP opportunity: Keeping said form shows continued loyalty to said deity.

    For the less loyal ones:
    You disgrace the deity, and they rip it from you. - RP opportunity: you can rage about the hard work put in, and channel said energy into a new direction.
    You leave without a new allegiance, deity is upset. - RP opportunity: you tried to sneak, but it didn't work, deity decides to rip it from you, as is their prerogative. Rue them!
    You leave without a new allegiance, deity is lenient. - RP opportunity: you get to show you were once in a certain deity's following. (could cause questions of loyalty)
    You leave and join someone else, new deity is lenient. - RP opportunity: you get to work through the RP of loyalty questions, perhaps request a ripping to prove yourself.
    You leave and join someone else, new deity is upset. - RP opportunity: Ho boy, this could turn bad. Best RP your way out of this by some more hard work!
    You leave and join someone else, other characters are upset. - RP opportunity: Prove them wrong by getting a new form? Work hard, and prove you belong.

    That's the beauty of RP. It might not always be sunshine and roses, but it's building stuff up. You wouldn't be entitled to these races, but they could be granted to you. If you do something to no longer deserve them, they could be taken away. If others are upset or act like you're less for having one deity's mark, well, that is up to them. You can either use that as fuel for your own RP or not. If they pull out the elitist card, and wave that underneath your nose, pull out the experience card and say you at have tried something, it didn't work and now you're better for it?

    Don't want to bother with Divine interaction? Choose Idreth. Perhaps it could also be possible to add in a reject option for these races, which could be punishable by the deity if found out. "You were given this by Me as a favor, and now you throw it away?! SMACK!!"

    I see a lot of RP opportunity, a lot of benefits, and not so many negative sides. Plus, a cool, shiny, nice, new thing.



  • KarhastKarhast EnorianMember Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    I want to preface this with saying that I can see where you're coming from, why you're saying these things, and why you'd suggest the system is changed.

    That said?

    Add in separate Endgame races for the different deities, that people can aspire towards.


    Jesus, no. Please. Please don't. I'd really prefer this didn't happen.

    We had this for a while, and it got changed for a reason. A good reason, even. Gods have high turnover, appear to be high stress roles, have a lot of things on their plate even when they're not RPing around as Ivoln or Dhar or whomever, and aren't generally required for anything mechanical. Making Gods the people involved in doling out endgame races is going to pose an ungodly amount of work on their part - and no, Idreth being optional doesn't mean people will flock to it. There will be a damn truckload of people out for their divine attention, and it's the kind of thing that needs to be taken into account before you do anything else.

    Ultimately, endgame is the way it is because of mechanics. Once you hit level 100, you get some goodies, some boosts, and some nifty stuff. We'd ideally have some excellent lore to match up to that, but most people want to be able to get their things and not be held up too much. And that's fine! Everyone has different priorities, gating everything behind esoterics is poor form. I'd really, really, really prefer that we don't gimp our mechanics very much in the name of RP that many people aren't interested in, and I'd prefer if the changes you propose didn't happen.
  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 490 ✭✭✭✭
    I don't like that ideology or process of thought. If there's one thing we've learned about Aetolia is that cliques will always be prevalent and every aspect of this game.

    If you decide to hold onto the form of an old deity, these cliques will insult you, mock you, and push you out of the Order because you refuse to bend to their whims.
    If you decide to hold onto the form of your previous deity, these cliques will withhold any form of god RP from you and will blatantly insult you so that you can't progress in the Order. I mean, why should you progress when you hold onto your old deity? You might as well put a bullseye target on your chest and back and say you're a punching bag... because that's how people will treat you.

    RP is not always going to be sunshine and roses and there are always avenues of providing amazing RP opportunities. But I do not think that this form of RP avenue would be anything but detrimental, because this WILL fall into the hands of those who will use it for their own nefarious and negative means to control and subsequently maintain a sense of superiority. I'm all for AWESOME RP opportunities, but I'm not for anything that gives players too much ability to keep avenues to only their friends while pushing everyone else to the side and made to feel inferior. Let alone those who will be snobbish because you were never one of them from the beginning of your character creation. Sure, you could pull out the whole "But I tried something and it wasn't for me." but it only perpetuates the aforementioned mentality of false superiority and cliquish people.


    TeaniDarim
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    Rhyot said:

    I don't like that ideology or process of thought. If there's one thing we've learned about Aetolia is that cliques will always be prevalent and every aspect of this game.

    If you decide to hold onto the form of an old deity, these cliques will insult you, mock you, and push you out of the Order because you refuse to bend to their whims.
    If you decide to hold onto the form of your previous deity, these cliques will withhold any form of god RP from you and will blatantly insult you so that you can't progress in the Order. I mean, why should you progress when you hold onto your old deity? You might as well put a bullseye target on your chest and back and say you're a punching bag... because that's how people will treat you.

    * Moving from one Order/congregation to another will still have the potential of others pulling the superiority card without the race involved. I did add the suggestion of being able to personally reject a form and return to Idreth to avoid potential backlash of holding on to stuff.
    Rhyot said:


    RP is not always going to be sunshine and roses and there are always avenues of providing amazing RP opportunities. But I do not think that this form of RP avenue would be anything but detrimental, because this WILL fall into the hands of those who will use it for their own nefarious and negative means to control and subsequently maintain a sense of superiority. I'm all for AWESOME RP opportunities, but I'm not for anything that gives players too much ability to keep avenues to only their friends while pushing everyone else to the side and made to feel inferior. Let alone those who will be snobbish because you were never one of them from the beginning of your character creation. Sure, you could pull out the whole "But I tried something and it wasn't for me." but it only perpetuates the aforementioned mentality of false superiority and cliquish people.

    * Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel like catering to people who are jerks and prefer to constantly play the superiority card by holding back awesome possibilities. I guess we see things differently, and that's alright!
    Karhast said:


    We had this for a while, and it got changed for a reason. A good reason, even. Gods have high turnover, appear to be high stress roles, have a lot of things on their plate even when they're not RPing around as Ivoln or Dhar or whomever, and aren't generally required for anything mechanical. Making Gods the people involved in doling out endgame races is going to pose an ungodly amount of work on their part - and no, Idreth being optional doesn't mean people will flock to it. There will be a damn truckload of people out for their divine attention, and it's the kind of thing that needs to be taken into account before you do anything else.


    * Aspiring towards them would not necessarily mean everyone gets them. True, cliques exist. We all know it. There is potential for favoritism, as always. However, there could be discussions in the Pools of how to handle such things to ensure a more fair distribution or something. It could at least be brought up for discussion on how to potentially make it possible, if this was something people were interested in. Throwing this up for discussion at least gives it a chance.

    We've had Chiav for a very long time now, and I can't really speak on how much more strain this might have put on that particular role compared to what others have had to deal with.
    Karhast said:


    Ultimately, endgame is the way it is because of mechanics. Once you hit level 100, you get some goodies, some boosts, and some nifty stuff. We'd ideally have some excellent lore to match up to that, but most people want to be able to get their things and not be held up too much. And that's fine! Everyone has different priorities, gating everything behind esoterics is poor form. I'd really, really, really prefer that we don't gimp our mechanics very much in the name of RP that many people aren't interested in, and I'd prefer if the changes you propose didn't happen.

    * I get the feeling you misinterpreted what I was suggesting. I didn't say we should scrap what is already there. I said we should add something cool to what already exists. Endgame would still have the mechanics, since you would always have the usual generic races. You hit 100 and get your goodies, some boosts and some nifty stuff. Nothing would change that at all. Do nothing, join nothing, and you still get to do what you do right now. The Deity Races would be more like Order perks. Maybe the deity is not around much, so then it's difficult to get that particular perk. Maybe they are around, but they don't like how your character goes about things, and then it won't happen to you. Such is the way of life, in a way. It's nothing you are or would ever be entitled to, so again, aspiration towards it would be good, but expectation should be very low for such a rare treat.


    I'm curious to hear more about what people think of the suggestion for haven points and character development. As @Benedicto and @Rhyot showed, there are plenty of people out there with a huge amount of haven points that just sit there, and I heard on web that there are more people who dislike havens, so maybe there are more ideas out there, floating around.



  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is that elephant in the room. I don't think Chiav will have added much strain to the Iosyne role but that's just my speculation.

    Also, players can only do so much to deny you rp with a god because the god roles are independent from the wishes of players. Unless there's some legitimate reason why said god would listen to their wants regarding interaction or treatment of a character.

    Sigrun
  • KarhastKarhast EnorianMember Posts: 131 ✭✭✭
    * Aspiring towards them would not necessarily mean everyone gets them. True, cliques exist. We all know it. There is potential for favoritism, as always. However, there could be discussions in the Pools of how to handle such things to ensure a more fair distribution or something. It could at least be brought up for discussion on how to potentially make it possible, if this was something people were interested in. Throwing this up for discussion at least gives it a chance.


    We do have a system to make sure they're fairly distributed. That system is letting people pick as they see fit without gating it through divine attention.

    * I get the feeling you misinterpreted what I was suggesting. I didn't say we should scrap what is already there. I said we should add something cool to what already exists. Endgame would still have the mechanics, since you would always have the usual generic races. You hit 100 and get your goodies, some boosts and some nifty stuff. Nothing would change that at all. Do nothing, join nothing, and you still get to do what you do right now. The Deity Races would be more like Order perks. Maybe the deity is not around much, so then it's difficult to get that particular perk. Maybe they are around, but they don't like how your character goes about things, and then it won't happen to you. Such is the way of life, in a way. It's nothing you are or would ever be entitled to, so again, aspiration towards it would be good, but expectation should be very low for such a rare treat.


    Deities tend to share a bunch of nifty things with their followers as-is, be it equipment, mounts, or other stuff. I'd rather they get to choose their own fun perks than be expected to dole out races - and, again, it will turn to expectation. That is how these things always go.
  • SigrunSigrun Member Posts: 3
    Xavin said:

    There is that elephant in the room. I don't think Chiav will have added much strain to the Iosyne role but that's just my speculation.

    Also, players can only do so much to deny you rp with a god because the god roles are independent from the wishes of players. Unless there's some legitimate reason why said god would listen to their wants regarding interaction or treatment of a character.

    I was just about to bring up Chiav. We do have a race tied to a Divine. I really don't see why others couldn't have that as well. It could be so tied to the Divine that only those in order could have said race, not just anyone who goes endgame, and if you leave the order, you lose that form.
  • EscelikaEscelika Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited June 6
    I'm not a big fan of Havens, either. I thought it was a weird choice for and endgame reward since it cuts into sales of various artifacts, private homes, and city-operated apartments. Though, I do love that I get a bunch of racial abilities.

    I was a Tekal until level 106 and considered staying a Tekal permanently. I eventually picked Yeleni because it felt more thematically appropriate for Escelika because it was more 'Life' themed. My reasoning is all opinion and doesn't really contribute a whole lot:
    The three choices are so samey and the lore so flexible that it doesn't feel meaningful which one you pick. They don't covey specific information about your character upon first glance. There's no real correlation to the race and some sort of RP lore outside of the cosmetic design of some skills. The fact that the majority of the people playing are one of three races kind of irks me. We have so many fantasy races to start with and then we all turn into the ending to Mass Effect 3.

    The whole 'Life' and 'Death' aspect doesn't really jive with the climate of the current game, either. However, I wouldn't want one race to be the 'Light' one and the other to be the 'Shadow' one because of the whole distillation of 18 fantasy races into 2 (Idreth as the neutral choice) instead of the 3 we have now. It wouldn't really make things better.

    It definitely feels like an outdated notion from a different era of the game.


    There's probably too much on the Pools schedule to really consider an endgame race overhaul, but I would definitely support it. I really don't like that you abandon your race when you turn 99+ and it becomes unimportant. I asked a lot of other people who just got it and a few of them didn't even bother changing their descriptions.

    I recognize that my opinion may not be shared by everyone so it's probably a good idea to really poll the whole game about Havens and endgame race/rewards.

    EDIT: I don't support the Deity races idea, I should have said. Getting into Orders is already not an easy or clear task for many divine, even if they're awake and active. I don't like the idea of orders becoming a new goal that everyone tries to achieve and becomes stale. If a player knows that a single volunteer has the power to allow or deny them this fancy race and they feel they've 'Earned it' or are 'Entitled' to it, there is bound to be a lot of undue negativity thrown at them. This is probably the same reason Azudim/Yeleni stopped requiring a Divine in the first place. I don't know if this has happened in Iosyne's order with Chiav or how one gains Chiav form. Perhaps there's a clear route that rules out the admin for blame/scrutiny. Maybe someone from the order can explain it without giving anything away.

    I said earlier, I don't like the idea of taking 18 races and turning them into 3. I also don't like them turning into 12. Though, if we're getting rid of the 3 current endraces and turning your base race into something like Demi-race or Ascended race or Meta-race until you achieve a divine race, I'd like it a lot more.

    Post edited by Escelika on
    Teani
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We already have the awesome "reach level 200" special race thing, which comes with its own skills and such. I wouldn't want these other races top compete with that because it's a tremendous feat. Perhaps if it was possible to gain special races through other things than just divine rp, though? Or simlly more options than the existing Yeleni/Azudim/Idreth that have firm connections to lore and also feel relevant and in time with the current game?



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