Sanguis ideas

Ezalor

Thrusting forward, you drive a hunter's spear into a ghast.

Damage done: 1139, cutting.

Balance Used: 2.96 seconds

H:6776(100%) M:5500(100%) B:37425(79%) [csdb e-]

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

H:6776(100%) M:5500(100%) B:37425(79%) [csdb eb]

You puncture a ghast with a hunter's spear.

Damage done: 1139, cutting.

Balance Used: 2.96 seconds

H:6776(100%) M:5500(100%) B:37425(79%) [csdb e-]

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

H:6776(100%) M:5500(100%) B:37425(79%) [csdb eb]

You throw your weight behind a hunter's spear, driving it into a ghast.

Damage done: 1139, cutting.

Balance Used: 2.96 seconds

H:6776(100%) M:5500(100%) B:37425(79%) [csdb e-]

You have recovered balance on all limbs.

H:6776(100%) M:5500(100%) B:37425(79%) [csdb eb]

You throw your weight behind a hunter's spear, driving it into a ghast.

Damage done: 1083, cutting.

The final blow proves too much for a ghast, who expires, pitifully.

You have slain a ghast.

A ghast, your loyal companion, has been slain by Ezalor.

The ghast staggers, falls, and crumbles into dust.

Balance Used: 2.96 seconds

Even worse than I thought actually, it has 4500 HP. So yeah, 2 round kill for someone like Daskalos. Keep in mind that I'm Sapivi, so an Insidiae ghast probably has something like 5000+ HP.

Banshee's use only comes when they shield up, and Praenomen are far better off than most classes when it comes to shield breaking since you can keep frenzying and dwhispering through it. I'd still use the ghast for almost every situation.

Xavin

Well, remember that if you bounce off of a shield with frenzy you're going to lose eq and not be able to whisper, which was the point of Ilyon's report on sunder (1219).

I'd say that with that fact in mind, and remembering that you're going to lose 4 seconds of eq any time you want to reliably use hammer to drop the target's shield, you might begin to have a good argument for using banshee. I mean, even without a ghast, praenomen have good aff output.

Ezalor

Xavin said:

Well, remember that if you bounce off of a shield with frenzy you're going to lose eq and not be able to whisper, which was the point of Ilyon's report on sunder (1219).

I'd say that with that fact in mind, and remembering that you're going to lose 4 seconds of eq any time you want to reliably use hammer to drop the target's shield, you might begin to have a good argument for using banshee. I mean, even without a ghast, praenomen have good aff output.

Incorrect. Bouncing off shield takes balance. It's unique to frenzy! There is absolutely no reason for a vampire to use a hammer tattoo since they have their own form of razeslash for shields.

EDIT: Yeah I'm not sure what the point of Ilyon's report was. Maybe he wasn't aware that frenzy took away balance when bouncing off shields.

Haven

Xavin said:

The corpse doesn't matter, but I'm not certain if there is any difference between the different minions. Wight is going to be the most tanky, though because of how it heals itself while it attacks.

The more I think about it, the more I think that banshee might be -really good-. Consider: it attacks every 5 seconds, and if your target has shield up it will break it 100% of the time. That makes it a passive hammer tattoo. Now, shield is on a 4 second static eq. Which means that, most likely, your opponent will touch shield and still be off eq when the banshee breaks it.

Hrm... it makes me wonder how viable a damage-based Praenomen is. Could I go Herculean and strut around with a banshee/wight/wraith damage-killing or annihilating the squishier classes?

Also, is the wight healing both me and itself with leech? Or just itself?

Malok

Except that its not a 100% hit, its a 33% chance, like you said. That's not quite razeslash, or hammer tattoo. Still useful, though.

Xavin

Ah, I guess I'm mistaken. Though SOMEONE is being afk instead of helping me test /stare haven.


But yeah, a pure-damage praenomen would be possible. At least, it used to be. When I was a praenomen I would get kills via damage fairly regularly.

Edit: In regards to that report, I can't speak -for- him, but it certainly reads like he wanted to give praenomen users a razeslash ability. That said, knowing that banshee actually bashes down shield 100% of the time...well, I'm starting to think that neither class needs it.

Ezalor

Ah, yeah I see. Ilyon's report is to give us a way to break shields 100% rather than the current 33%. As for that, I can't comment since I don't know enough about combat balance to say either way on that one.

Malok

Yeah. When I tested in an arena spar against my friend, obviously he was just using FirstAid, but with Seduction/Temptation, and all 3 Effuses, a minion hitting, and a 20+ strength Phrenseses frenzy being spammed, it gets ridiculous quickly. The damage output is no joke. Especially if you mix in Siphon to get them to cure mana.

Ezalor

Don't use frenzy. Get a spear, trans Weaponry, and enjoy your 3 affs per 3 seconds! It also does more raw DPS than frenzy. The only time you should be frenzying is if they have shield up. You could also resort to it when rebounding is up but I prefer claw in those instances since it won't slow down your aff output by as much as frenzy.

Also Phreneses is like...really, really bad :P.

Malok

Yeah, unfortunately I don't have Trans Weaponry. I will get it one day though, thats one of the main barriers left for me to try doing combat on Aetolia. Probably gonna get Forging too so I can make my own.

I'm glad you all have made this thread a success, it's probably a bit off topic now, but it's been very educational.

Xavin

Exactly, Malok. Praenomen is -very- powerful, as is Bloodborn.

Both classes have access to partial offense when their opponents are behind shield/prismatic barrier. Though praenomen have better solutions to shield, they both still can mediate the slowdown caused by it.

Bloodborn can ignore rebounding, while praenomen have biles to help get around them. Some of the passive afflictions are useful for dropping both rebounding and shield.

Ezalor

Xavin said:

Ah, I guess I'm mistaken. Though SOMEONE is being afk instead of helping me test /stare haven.


But yeah, a pure-damage praenomen would be possible. At least, it used to be. When I was a praenomen I would get kills via damage fairly regularly.

Edit: In regards to that report, I can't speak -for- him, but it certainly reads like he wanted to give praenomen users a razeslash ability. That said, knowing that banshee actually bashes down shield 100% of the time...well, I'm starting to think that neither class needs it.

Well, keep in mind that it's pretty much impossible to keep your minion alive when your opponent wants it dead (and BB don't get that). As it is Corpus users get to have a 33% chance to break shield + 2 whisper affs every 3.5 seconds or so to deal with shield. Whether or not that needs to be bumped to 100%, again, someone with better combat balance knowledge than me should input on that.

Xavin

Yes, but you have ways to buff your minion (gift), though yes it can only be used periodically. And remember, your -fastest- speed will be 2.96 seconds, since you just need to find a weapon to match your dwhisper eq time, and at wise with an eq crown, that'll be 2.96 seconds.

dwhisper is 3.75 seconds neutral, 3.48 +1, 3.22 +2, and 2.96 +3.

Edit: Yes, bouncing against a shield will likely slow that down, but your aff output when not hindered by a shield is still pretty amazing.

Ezalor

You pale as you channel your own health into your progeny.

Health Lost: 1355, unblockable.

Not going to keep it alive by any means.

Haven

...so are you just sore out of luck without an eq crown as a Praenomen? Are spears/weaponry skillset a -must- in order to fight as a Praenomen?

Ilyon

You definitely need a hammer tattoo as a praenomen/BB, the sunder effect on frenzy is too unreliable (and yes, I do know about it costing balance).

Minion health is -the- main complaint from anyone who uses the class actively in PvP. I've been meaning to make some report on that, but I forgot. Alas, next round!

Sadface on not getting the Specialise report approved.

Ezalor

If you want to unlock the full potential of the class, yes, Weaponry is an absolute must. Frenzy really sucks. The stun sucks, the damage sucks, the balance sucks.

One of the biggest complaints I had about vampires is that you pretty much need to be tri Trans + Weaponry + Vision + Survival to be able to fight near full potential. Crown knocks whispers from 3.22 to 2.96, whether that is worth 850 credits is at the discretion of the user I suppose.

Ilyon

Haven said:

...so are you just sore out of luck without an eq crown as a Praenomen? Are spears/weaponry skillset a -must- in order to fight as a Praenomen?

You don't really need a crown - the 7% increase isn't so dramatic - but it helps. You absolutely do need Weaponry.

Xavin

Once upon a time, crown had an even larger effect on dwhisper. I want to say it knocked it down to like...2.5 seconds or some such thing? This was before it was brought in line with how racial balance and eq are currently calculated. Though, at that time I don't think you could get a one handed weapon that fast, and if you could it was likely going to be a rapier, which meant you weren't throwing good damage.

Regarding minion health, maybe a good solution would be to increase the amount of healing that gift gives and lessen the damage it deals to the vampire?

I'm honestly not certain how resilient vampire minions should actually be considering the relative strength of their other passives and the strength of their offense in general.

Haven

..well that blows. I thought Weaponry was just a bonus not a requirement for the class.

Xavin

Welcome to the world of praenomen and bloodborn. Two of the few classes left that you -must- tri trans your class skills and trans weaponry to even get your foot in the door to combat.

Malok

Xavin said:

Welcome to the world of praenomen and bloodborn. Two of the few classes left that you -must- tri trans your class skills and trans weaponry to even get your foot in the door to combat.

Then perhaps the next set of liaisons we can get this fixed, or whatever.

I just think that for a game that, lets face it, is known for being a 'Vampire' mud, the Vampires are one of the hardest to get into combat with and are also one of the oldest classes as far as staleness/outdatedness in the skillsets. Seems very strange.

I guess I could always switch class to one of the ezmode ones, but I really like sticking to my RP. If I didn't like the RP of being a Vampire, I'd just go kill some more people in Imperian.

Ezalor

You can be a vampire without having Praenomen or Bloodborn class, just fyi. It's not tied to the classes anymore (although you do have to be a vampire to be Prae/BB).

Ilyon

Bloodborn don't need Weaponry - scythe skill is based on Hematurgy. Praenomen should definitely get something like this too. Something to remember for next round!

Malok

Eh, I know. I'm old school though, I will always associate Praenomen with being a Vampire. That's how it was when I started playing, way before novices could even instantly be one. Despite all that though, I still find Sanguis to be a stale skillset. I just think more could be done with it, given the creativity and such we've seen from the newer skillsets from the last couple of years like what the Templars and Carnifex have.

Xavin

Was the scythe speed boost completely removed then? I don't recall that change, but then again there have been a lot of changes.

Seir

Insidiae is apparently the way to go. The faster minion attacks add up quickly in conjunction to damage from biles, temptation, the weapon hits/frenzy. I'm not sure, but I also think it increases the damage that the minions do because I've seen the minions hit for more than 400. It was more around 600 or so. This is the average amount that the typical person sips health for, by the by.

Riluo

I do know a few years ago we needed to trans weaponry to reach our full speeds, which caused a lot of people to crack it. Perhaps it got changed to only need trans hematurgy now!

Malok

So, I was thinking about this thread again recently, due to the fact that I have access to Oasis now to cure with. I was thinking about fighting again, but once again I'm stubborn, and I don't want to just go Hematurgy. I see that the posts in this thread are nearly two years old now, and all the problems that we all saw with this skillset have continued to be the same. What gives? Do we really still need all the Sanguis pets to do like .5% damage? Is 200 damage a tick really that great when everyone has 7k health? I think we need to discuss this before liaisons come up again, as I would really like to see this skillset change after close to 10 real years of using it and it being the same.

Vorlus

One thing that still need sorting out is the minion health being still extremely low. They seem to only have about 5-8k HP which makes them trivial to kill.