Announce post #3069: Holy War addenda

Autoposter

3/4/2020 at 21:01
Tiur, the Gnosis
Everyone
Holy War addenda

Earlier today I ruled that Holy Wars did not explicitly list PK as something disallowed during the grace period. I hereby reverse that, in reference to precedent and intent for the grace period's usage - which generally allows for discussions to be opened between conflicting Orders to foster deeper RP, or to deepen the animosity organically. It also allows different time-zone players to get caught up before the conflict opens fully.

Things have gotten out of hand from that simple warning, so let me make it clear that Holy Wars are Order vs Order. Not Order vs Order+Guild. If you wish to take part, join the Order or Congregation. As the HELP HOLY WARS file clarifies; congregants may assist in the defense of their Ordermates as well.

The HELP HOLY WARS file will be kept up to date, but all changes will be visible here as well.

-T

PS This does leave open discussion on things like systemized conflict mechanics and intentions. This post on the forum can serve as discussion space for that.

Penned by my hand on Kinsday, the 23rd of Midsummer, in the year 486 MA.

Teani

A thought that came to me when reading this: if, as happened just recently, a guild takes action against an Order, there is no mechanical way for the Order to retaliate. In this case, the Order chose to move against the opposing guild's Patron, which seems reasonable. Patrons are meant to guide their guilds, after all, so if pressure is applied, the Patron can be pushed to intervene.

Would it be possible to make some sort of addendum to the various Holy War settings to allow this to be a thing?

PK setting: Order members have at it on the battlefield until win conditions are met. 
Shrine setting: Dust shrines until win conditions are met.
Restitution setting: PK/Shrine setting until full/partial restitution has been made by the Patroned organization to the offended Order. If partial, it would open up for negotiations between the two parties for further RP.

Might be a bad idea, I don't know. Just a thought.

Aloli

I can understand the desire to separate guilds and orders in a holy war. I do not particularly agree with it as I see it a fundamental separation in lore as well but this is also my opinion.

Aloli has a great relationship with her guild's Patron. If They were under attack she will want to go support out of loyalty - why in the world would you create a character who is loyal to a god and be forced to sit back and not help them? It makes no sense to me but I'll accept that there are perspectives here I'm not seeing and I'll let it go.

However, what I do not see as making sense is Aloli having to deal with the aftermath and NOT be able to call on her husband for support. So I'd like some clarity on this particular point.

@Tiur, religion and organizations aside, Aloli would absolutely spring to Bene's aide if he got attacked and was overwhelmed where it seemed he can use the help. She would also absolutely call for his help because they're married, especially in a holy war. What are your thoughts on this?

I think it'll be near impossible for me to RP a scenario where Aloli sees her husband fighting to protect his god (her patron and mentor) and check out "See ya later hubby, I'll revive you if you need it! Good luck!"

Tiur

Yes, this is the problem with mechanical mass conflict mechanisms. So many things to account for. At the moment, Holy Wars is the only one that really exists, so for now, we have to keep it arbitrarily black and white.

Trikal

This has always been a problem. A solution although I admit a difficult one to enforce on a strict code base layer is available. The aggressors in any specific conflict can’t be aided by those outside the order/cong. The defenders however may call in whatever aid they can get. 

I think that covers most people’s need to help their friends and loved ones without skewing things too badly. If you’re defining a shrine and your wife steps in the fight there’s an issue. She shouldn’t be helping your order without being a member. If you get attacked later she’s trying to protect her husband who was just jumped while y’all were having a picnic. 

Obviously situations aren’t quite as black and white as that, but that seems a reasonable way to do it. Of course everything gets convoluted in actual practice and I see the reasoning behind having very strict only order/cong members can participate. It just limits many people’s role-play options during conflict. Which may be a reason so many seem adverse to the concept. 

Koda

What about something like guild sanctioning but applied to orders, and only allowed during that buildup phase before the holy war actually starts? Would essentially allow for "temporary" access to the Congregation (maybe order sanctioned members could still chat there with a different command, or make it a whole separate channel, whatever) that would at least offer the opportunity to nip some of those cases like Aloli's in the bud for the duration of the war.

This could help encourage RP across orders (who knows, maybe some conversions?), encourage RP before a war for people to be recruiting others to help out, and maybe help out with cases where it's clearly just one big order bullying a smaller one that can't really defend.

If your order is standoffish and regarded badly, you're going to be less likely to drum up that support. It might put an emphasis on actual Order RP, and gives some smaller/less active Orders more of a fighting chance. If an Order doesn't want the outside help, they simply don't sanction the person/people to participate.

I think the primary downside here would be the chance for things to scale up pretty quickly, but sometimes those bigger conflicts are the most engaging and fun. It might help where people are craving more of a conflict mechanism like the war system that's been missing, but it could also be entirely possible during that buildup phase for both sides to declare/negotiate they're not going to accept sanctioned people.

The issue of "from an RP sense I should be able to help my husband/guildmate/whatever" will still be there after that buildup phase has closed and the holy war's started, but at least there's a chance beforehand to address it.

Iazamat

For healthy conflict to have a chance, RP such as "I need to defend this IC loved one" often has to be set aside. Speaking personally, making exceptions, mechanical or otherwise, doesn't lead to healthy conflict or benefit the game as a whole.

Lessers, Majors, Orrery? Sure. Show up with whoever, defend others as you need, etc. Personal conflict? Use your best judgment, but don't be surprised if it starts growing out of hand because you shouldn't have involved yourself. Guild? City? Order? In most cases, you should definitely be a member of the organization in order to involve yourself, no matter what precedent you may have as a staunch ally or supporter of the organizations - or connections to other members - in question, especially when it comes to mechanical war systems.

This is definitely a case where we shouldn't be looking to find workarounds to suit RP, but instead should be relaxing our RP to facilitate conflict and conflict mechanisms. If I got involved in all of Mjoll's personal or order conflict (or guild before I joined the Carnifex), I don't think people would be half as willing to engage her in PvP or RP as they currently are. It's give and take - we all want conflict and RP, but know when it's your time and when it isn't.

Aloli

Iazamat said:

This is definitely a case where we shouldn't be looking to find workarounds to suit RP, but instead should be relaxing our RP to facilitate conflict and conflict mechanisms. If I got involved in all of Mjoll's personal or order conflict (or guild before I joined the Carnifex), I don't think people would be half as willing to engage her in PvP or RP as they currently are. It's give and take - we all want conflict and RP, but know when it's your time and when it isn't.

I like that POV, thanks.

Mazzion

Can we get a mechanical means to end the holywar without forcing a defeat for either side? Like some agree button by the opposing faction maybe? There has been an RP resolution (don't laugh at me, I am not the master mind on this one) and we would like to mechanically end the holywar. Aloli, Tatia, and Benedicto have come up with some great solutions on the RP side.

Aloli

@Mazzion, @Tatia and I were talking about that last night and this morning. I had originally thought HOLYWAR TRUCE was an actual command because I misunderstood something Tiur was saying.

But a CEASEFIRE would be awesome if it also came with the publication to the politics board as the other options do.

Tatia issued herself and also sent a mass message about the suggestion. So we're just waiting now.

Tiur

No mechanical means at the moment, we'd have to code it. Discussing the difficulty

Aloli

You know, take your time with the coding! At least it'll go down in history that it was a long and peaceful war

Drystin

ALTERNATIVELY! Just as the conflict was at a stalemate an incredibly powerful albedi god showed up and YEETED two of our gods that are kinda inactive and boring af right now with a tremendous explosion that dispersed the victim divine's essence across Sapience! This unforeseen turn of events forced the heroes from the side of unflinching wholesomeness and unquestionable chastity to team up temporarily with the heroes of goth ballroom dancing and perpetual sobriety to face this threat to Sapience together! 

*ducks*

Orrrr something like that! No coding needed, just a distracting and fun plot twist that kills two birds with one stone. Or two gods with one albedi in this case.

Czcienn

I think if Holy Wars had to be agreed on then it'd be different. The problem with the current system is that all of the other characters who aren't in those two orders are forced to sit out when their RP would tell them otherwise. If there was some consent to the war from the defender then at least there is some implicit agreement by the defender to not call in defenders and our characters can use that as justification for sitting out.

The natural argument is that nobody would ever accept a war they are sure to lose, but maybe that's not such a bad thing either.

Aloli

Czcibor said:

The natural argument is that nobody would ever accept a war they are sure to lose, but maybe that's not such a bad thing either.

While I do agree with what you're saying, I can also see the merit in the other point ov view. Sometimes war comes to your door and you have to deal with it. Aetolia2.0==GoT, 2020.

Hawa

Drystin said:

unquestionable chastity

you're clearly not even talking about this game smh