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For a very very very very long time @Benedicto use to whine and gripe and bitch and moan any time darkies showed up with +1 than them, or brought down the fist of God in the form of overwhelming numbers, or anytime anything was considered 'unfair'. I empathized with him, having been on the receiving end of such tragedies. We sort of bonded, and I started trying to reign darkies in for a long time when things were getting out of hand.
To never get the same treatment back. Anytime Benedicto would do it, it was because we did it. Even though I was actively fighting against it. He had no restraint, no sense of fairness when they were winning. In any other scenario, this is 100% completely fine, because everyone does it, we all do it, whatever. But when I put effort into helping a friend of mine have a more enjoyable time only for him to never do it for me, and then he turns around and picks a fight with an organization that one of my characters is ICly tied to and allowed to defend, he threatens to crush an entire org with all of Spirit tether if I participate! I got mad, lost my shit, cussed him hard. I went overboard, ngl, but his threat was overboard. I just reacted in kind, honestly.
We stayed mad about it the last year or so, finally I approached him to squash it and move on. And then not even a month fucking later he's taking 6 people (at least) against an order of 3, maybe 4, in an org v. org type of fight the Order is already at a disadvantage in (no matter what, they lose shrines, while the Templars just get pk'd??).
[snipped]
(Spinesreach): Xiuhcoatl says, "Oh man, grab the children-corn. This is gonna be good."
That said and jokes aside I'm not even going to argue if this is the right medium or not. But if a Guild is picking on an Order, that Order is by no means obligated to face that guild alone. Bring in the cavalry and curbstomp the offenders. RP with your tether and rally support for a coalition because you best believe that guild's members probably not all sporting the same god. If the org can't do that...welp, probably shouldn't burn so many bridges.
If you're concerned that it'll escalate to full-scale tether fight and get out of control then I propose that tether leadership use a special clan to outline victory and stale-mate conditions early on that's agreeable to both sides for a full-stop. Let's show the admin that we can handle war and give us some of our toys back!
#TearsAreGoodForFarmingToo
#SquadGoals
#IosShouldDeclareOnDamaForTheLulz
Nah can't do that, though. For instance. This one time Alathesia and some other noncom Iosyne member were hanging out in Omeis place and talking smack. Whatever happened that night got Seir to rally all of Spirit tether into beating on Iosynes order so much that I griefed my first person ever and killed Aymah every time she stepped outside of a city until Seir quit his bullshit. Benedicto already threatened to involve the entire tether once, just like that, but people on the evil side of the game have principles and shit and aren't going to get involved just because their friends with the people getting stomped OOCly.
[snipped]
You know what happens when someone is doing something dumb on shadow side and they ask for help? We ask them questions, figure out what's going on, and if they're due for a beating, we tell them to suck it up and eat the beating. Spirit suggests shit like that (the issueing), regardless of right or wrong, and then preaches about how they're the good guys OOCly on the forums. I've about had it with this bullshit, and I've about had it with Tiur hanging out in that fucking discord and supporting these toxic cliquey fucks, too.
So, no, man. I'll name and shame until a mod steps in and sweeps all this bullshit under the rug, and everyone who does this type of bullshit can go back to thinking they're good people and I'm the asshole because I type mean instead of being passive aggressive.
The Templar have a set of post-Knighthood requirements. Within these requirements is what's known as 'The Rite of Cleansing' and to complete this, one of the missions is to destroy 5 enemy shrines. The post-Knighthood path is new (installed since I've been GM) and so as we've grown in the number of Knights, there's a number of us with this requirement.
This is no different to similar requirements I've seen/experienced from other organisations.
Due to the number of Templar players who have this requirement outstanding (the entire Knighthood), it was decided that we would make it a 'guild event' - rally the troops, have RP amongst the guild and create a unified sense of purpose. The other option was to just let every member go after whatever shrines they wanted. The danger of this being that it would be that one individual against an entire Order, and it could potentially be numerous Orders all angry at the Templar at the same time.
To that end, we decided to settle on a singular 'enemy' deity to target in this Templar crusade. A meeting was held IG with all the Knighthood with all the reasons explained and discussed etc. The parameters were to each complete the five shrine destruction as noted in the Rite. Once a shrine is destroyed, the job is done. The enemy can be left to re-raise if they wish, Temps are to leave it alone. If you were attacked, then defend yourself. Otherwise, the Order members were to be left untouched. As of this moment in time, there is not one Iosian Order member who has been attacked by a Templar. Rosdes (Templar), I believe, has been the only casualty.
I actually wanted it to be Bamathis, but I was dissuaded by other members of the guild, and say what you want about Iosyne and her tenets but this runs pretty contrary to what the Temps stand for as noted in her HELP file:
The intention was never to 'pick' or 'grief' anyone - as I said, so far, Rosdes is the only person that's actually died and shrines, whilst time consuming to put back up, can be reinstated with a minimum of fuss. I apologize profusely if this has been the perception, but as you can see from my outline above (and any other Templar player will verify with you), the parameters were agreed upon in such a way that the potential consequences of this would be minimal for all parties whilst allowing the Templar Knighthood to complete their requirements in one fell swoop.
You could have changed the requirement or let people work it out individually. Changing the requirement is like the #1 thought that comes to my head when I ask myself 'how could this have all been avoided without running into the issues of one lone templar vs. all of Bamathis order?!'
At the end of the day, do what you gotta do brosaf.
Re: Your story, my only issue with the IC reasons is that they seem to function as vehicles for sating your ooc justifications and ego. I don't mean that in a cruel way, I mean to observe where the other party is coming from and why there's this unresolved conflict you guys need to squash. This could be a singular event that doesn't fit the pattern Bulrock has established for the past year or two but it seems like either way that beef still like...exists and needs to be handled.
@Haven I think an IC solution to the problem is a great idea. I agree with not being able to get together. It creates a niceness pressure cooker.
(Spinesreach): Xiuhcoatl says, "Oh man, grab the children-corn. This is gonna be good."
As such, I've taken two actions:
1) I've removed those comments as best I could without upsetting the context of the discussions, and banned Bulrok from the forums for a couple of weeks for instigating them.
2) I'm splitting this into its own topic because let's keep the love thread for love, come on guys.
@Eydis I don't know who you are, but I am pretty sure that post was not a boast. He had been pretty excited about him and Stine plotting Templar stuff in private channels where there would be no point in boasting. Have you considered that actually some people just want to show some love for the game, their fellow players, and the interactions that come from it in the thread dedicated to it?
I think the context of the situation has been pretty well established? The things he's excited about plotting about are pretty obviously the de facto war that was started. Curb stomping a nearly dead order and going on forums immediately after and being like YEAH BRO MAN PLOTTING BATTLES IS GREAT BRO is pretty unambiguous? I'm not really sure how to connect the dots any clearer than they have been already, unless you're just doing this to gaslight the obvious.
Buls post suggests that the Templar were roving around as a group of six fighting a much smaller Order. The reality was each Templar was largely alone when they took out their allocated shrines. At one point the only people online considered to be 'PKers' within the guild were me and @Aisling whilst Iosyne's Order had Mazzion, Tatia, Meltas and Ayuna all active and online. Canasius actually tried to stop me as well. There was no fighting outside of a 1v1 that I had with Canasius and then Mazzion. Mazzion and Stine had a 1v1 encounter. Fezzix killed Rosdes because she tried to defile a linked Spirean shrine and she took it in good faith.
There seems to be a suggestion of 'bullying' but that was sincerely not the case at all. Me and Tatia RP'd in game and have spoken OOC and she is absolutely fine with it. I actually had a laugh with Mazzion in tells when we fought 1v1. If we'd wanted to 'curb stomp' a dead Order, the Templar could just have more easily gone for poor Ivoln.
As Czcibot said, in recent memory I've dealt with two instances of Slyphian shrines being defiled for either 'training purposes' (Bama's Order) or because we wouldn't give a rude person the cure for undeath (Carnifex). In each instance we just got on. I didn't complain to the people involved or take it to the forums. I accepted the RP behind it and got on.
It seems the people who are most upset by this are the people who aren't actually involved.
#I'dLikeMoreTeaPlz.
furthermore, when i went on a little bit of a shrine burning rampage on my previous character - completely based on that character's RP - i was roundly shouted-down in the court of popular opinion that is """Seir's Delve Discord Server""" (or was it here in the forums? idk, idc enough to look it up) by members of both tethers. in fact, i think Toz was particularly disapproving. anyways, iirc, the objections to my instigation were something like: i didn't have an order or congregation affiliation at the time, which meant the targeted order couldn't retaliate in any meaningful way. the asymmetry of the conflict, on top of the irritation of having to replace shrines, was seen as very un-fun. ultimately, i relented, because my goal wasn't then and isn't now to be anything but fun (even if playing a """bad guy""").
with the above background in mind, my questions:
do these sorts of objections not still hold true in this scenario (guild vs order)? after all, the flip side of one individual with no order/congregation is many people with many affiliations attacking a single order in that the conflict is highly asymmetrical (altho it's a case of too many targets to reasonably retaliate against rather than none). if they don't, why not?
what other guilds currently have (or even have had any time since 2017, since that's when i started playing) a progression *requirement* to destroy shrines? this is maybe pure curiosity on my part, but i've never encountered it in aetolia. i can definitely see why certain guilds might want to have/make beef with gods - especially, let's be frank, two of enorian's guilds since no shadow guild really cares on an organizational level - but if the (largely mechanical) asymmetry issue i referenced is real, it seems like pk-oriented conflict is probably not the most fun way to do it.
i anticipate at least one answer to the first question is that the targeted order could attack the guild's patron's shrines. it seems to me like this muddies things a bit, though, since then that patron's order might reasonably get involved. the conflict becomes even more asymmetrical at that point (although, i suppose, not hugely-so, as most orders aren't very populous).
more curiosity - why were people in the templar guild reticent to target bamathis's shrines? on its face, selecting iosyne seems... well, it makes sense RPly, but given the relative inactivity of her order (especially compared to the warlord's), it looks either cowardly or calculated to make the requirement easier. i assume that's not why focusing on the warlord was ultimately reject, though, right? [[ETA: these are just the two options that immediately occurred to me - i'm not trying to passive-aggressively imply i really believe anything untoward was going on. i genuinely have no clue, and i've no reason to think literally anything is actually the case without some insight from those involved.]]
First, I want to say if I am not about, it has nothing to do with the conflict and more about me going crazy because my latency has gone through the roof and I can't figure out why. I like PK, I have no problem with it in general.
I think it is more about the method of conflict. I see all the stuff going on in the order. It is pretty small, with very few known combatants. Not to take away anything from the ones in there that still fight. They are solid. The issue, unlike Bamathis vs Slyphe as mentioned above, is there is no real resolution or even stated basis. Everyone was pretty much like...what happened? It seemed very manufactured as an easy win (just stating things from what i saw mentioned on order tells) and with little end game closing, which is where you run into trouble. It is a guild, vs. a order. How does the order really fight back? What shrines do you attack? There is at least 4 orders within the Templar guild. Mechanics are pretty bad in this instance. I think if the Templar guild really wanted a constructive PK scene, why not engage one of the leaders of the other factions and do it in a productive manner.
Could we have engaged other guilds and orders to fight back? Sure, but I personally didn't want to. In fact, I was doing 1v1 battles today against defilers while my latency wasn't super horrible. I think there is a mentality now that any form of losing is toxic, and most people will do anything to avoid it. A couple of examples. I killed Ranae while in the Shattered Vortex. I could have killed Anahera, but left them alone (even though a PK zone) Why? Because that wouldn't be healthy for me to kill a young combatant like that. I didn't bring a squad, just me vs. Ranae. I did the same for every single member i could find outside of the city (at least five different Templars). What happened? They all ran or called for reinforcements. The only one who stayed to fight was Benedicto, 1v1 and didn't call for backup. I respect that.
It seemed like this was a tool for conflict, but when conflict (equal conflict) presented itself, it was avoided.
On a side note, I understand Bulrok's frustrations. There was a time that we all were very close with Benedicto. I miss it. What happened, not even sure anymore? Things broke down, and they got compounded and now instead of healthy constructive PK, it has devolved into the only time conflict happens is when you know you win and crush the other team. Yes, both sides do it, I know. Not many try anymore, even when they say it from one side, but exhibit something from the other side.
What can we all do? Calm down. Try better options, maybe talk to your opponent first, even if in a ooc manner when trying to pull off a large scale conflict option. Before, not after. Reach out to the other side in a constructive way. I try to always be open to any questions. I don't horde my skills and will help anyone from any tether anytime you ask (if I am not afk). If you want to gloat, keep it to yourself. If you want to be an ass, keep it to yourself. If you want to say good fight, but with no condescending manner, do it. If you want to genuinely help, reach out. It may be tough at first, but keep trying. I try to be better every day.
Ramblings from an old guy.
In respect of the Bama question it was because of his status in Duiran that meant the envoy members weren't keen on causing anything to rock the boat. As you say, Iosyne fits very neatly from an RP perspective. The goal wasn't to 'win' anything, it was to allow the Knights to complete their (completely optional) post Knighthood req. Hence why they were given the choice if they wanted to be involved or not. All of them wanted to be involved *because* of the fact it became a guild/unified engagement rather than leaving them at the mercy of facing an order on their own.
I'd like to just reiterate that participation in this was completely optional and the requirement is for post-Knighthood for guild rewards. Not really any kind of additional progression.
Needs repeating.
On another note: has anyone seen that cat I was keeping in a bag? I think it got out like six weeks ago...
I'd really like to see both tethers and all guilds/orders/cities growing a pair and acting IC how they were made to without people getting upset OOC.
@Drystin To be fair, both sides used to do that to varying degrees of success. Especially shadow when I used to play years back. Since my return, however, the atmosphere of the entire game has changed. People have gotten older. Some matured. Some stayed the same. But everyone seems to have gotten sick and tired of other people's bullshit. Which is perfectly justified I think for the long time players. Having to play nice all the time or be ridiculed by the mob swarm only bred an environment where passive aggressiveness reigned as king. And we have what we have today in large part due to that in my opinion.
I think we should take @Mazzion's advice and all take a step back to chill. In good faith. Just start being straight up with one another. If you got grievances, don't be dumb about it but air it out. Don't let it bottle up. The community needs to heal and move forward.
Fact: Each side does things to the other that is distasteful.
Fact: People do find any form of losing in this game toxic(not everyone, but a good amount do), as Mazzion said.
Opinion: Out of character things such as webs, clans, and Discord servers have only doubled down on the tribalism. Tribalism in this game will not be solved by the players. It can only be steered into a more positive thing by the administration.
My hope: The administration will one day actually figure out what this game is supposed to be about. Is it Shadow vs Spirit or is it Sapience vs Albedos? If you're going to have shades of either option, for the love of god, please stop teasing and pick one of them instead of having both. It doesn't make for anything positive other than the sort of thing we've seen here on the forums tonight and in the game in other avenues.