The tactical strike?

Daingean

Hey, forums!

So, a discussion with a friend of mine led me to make this post, asking a question.

Is the 'tactical strike' [here used to mean 'go to a location, do something reasonably specific, and leave.] viable role play in Aetolia?

Please keep reading before you respond!

I know that it's theoretically possible. But is it reasonable to expect it? We were discussing raiding, in a general sense. Here's an excerpt from our conversation:

Friend:  Little squads aren't very useful. I'm not sure how much the guard changes will effect raiding, though. But also, I hate raiding. Griefing our enemies is the opposite of fun.

Me: What if we say, 'This is our goal, we do this, and then we call for a portal and walk the hell out.'

Friend: What do you suppose the chance of getting people to leave after they've gotten in is? I mean, leave without dying first.

--

He poses a legitimate and somewhat troubling query - so, I thought I'd ask, straight up and honest - is it expecting too much for Daingean to say, 'We're going to light their market district on fire, and then we're leaving.'? I don't have a ton of experience raiding, in any IRE mud. I've gone a time or two here and there, but everyone seemed to die a few times and give up or get repulsed and give up. Whenever the scales tipped in favor of the attacker, they always seem hellbent on staying until they're forced out.

And that, as my friend pointed out, isn't fun. It passes the point of sending a message, and pushes over into the place where people log out because Mazzion or Daskalos [side depending] aren't around to scare everyone off. I proposed that with proper role play, it would be possible to get in, do something, and get out - he insists that our playerbase - and that of any game - wouldn't do that.

I understand the role play excuse - if Enorian can get into Bloodloch, and kill ALL THE THINGS, then yes, it does make sense that they might try. But I understand equally the difference between executing the role play of your side of the game and pushing the envelope past 'acceptable and commendable role play' into 'causing players to log out until you go the hell away'.

I saw it with Bloodloch v. Duiran. That was ridiculous, and anyone who claims otherwise should really sit down and consider what it would have been like to be Duiran there.

So I guess the heart of my question is this: Is it a pipe dream to think that assault based role play - on cities or allied villages/towns - can be done for the sake of just role play, rather than seeing how many npcs/guards you can kill before you die out?

Demarcus

In short? No.

The reason I view it as such is this: The people that have half a hoot or more about roleplay aren't terribly interested in the combat aspect. From what I've seen, the people that want combat are bloodthirsty PK-berserking smash-things-until-I-run-out-of-lives-or-you-quit-the-game aren't confident what the letters 'RP' stand for in this instance, and sure as hell aren't interested in wasting valuable PK opportunities to smash your face in to sprinkle fairy dust around, hold hands and sing some campfire songs.

Essentially, you're going to be stuck doing one thing or another, and they don't mix. Now, with Divine intervention, absolutely it could be a reality. Peace a room for RP to take place, then let a melee ensue, break for RP, let the pursuit continue, etc. Without it? No way in hell. If you try and multi-task, you're going to die from the combat aspect when the other side realizes you're trying to emote something because they probably won't stop their attacks to see what happens.

Case in point, take thieving. I'm not sure what thieving is/was like in Aetolia, but speaking from experience in the IRE MUD that shall not be named but also starts with an 'A', a thief would lie in wait until you got soulripped or something and then take everything you own. There was never any roleplay. Ever. No interaction at all on either side of the theft/theft attempt except having a Champion or Assassin go and kill them a few times. Woohoo, 3% for all your gold, clothes, vials, journals, and trinkets. I would imagine it would be very similar to what you're proposing here. An opportunity absolutely rich for fantastic roleplay (even if it ends up with you dead or losing some gold) that's going to get trodden into the blood-soaked earth because a handful of players want to get their jollies off by killing everything in sight.

Just my 2 cents, but it is possible I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about.

Daingean

Demarcus said:

I wasn't actually suggesting we stay and emote at the other side. I was more suggesting that the assault itself is done for the role play behind it, rather than with the intent of racking up numbers. So, to use my own example, go into bloodloch, kill our way to the market, light it on fire, drop a flag or two and shout, 'Embrace the Light, or you too shall burn!' and sonic portal out.

Demarcus

Would be way more epic with emoting. Just sayin'.

Now that I see what you did there... *I* like the idea and would be up for it. I think it's a great idea. How does invading Ciem work exactly? Or defending it for that matter? Isn't it kind of the same thing? I know nothing about Ciem, just that it's some sort of goal-oriented team conflict. Anyways.

Now that I've voiced that I think what you're suggesting is a great idea, it'll still never work because there's got to be more people out there that want to ruin a potentially awesome thing. Just the way it is.

Anyone seen my glass of water? It was half empty...

[Edit: I forgot to add that, like all raiding, since it would be so much fun, it would likely turn into griefing because we'd want to light Bloodloch's market on fire all the time. And then we get raiding 24/7. That's only fun if you're winning.]

Daingean

Demarcus said:

[Edit: I forgot to add that, like all raiding, since it would be so much fun, it would likely turn into griefing because we'd want to light Bloodloch's market on fire all the time. And then we get raiding 24/7. That's only fun if you're winning.]

That's exactly what I'm wondering if it's possible to avoid with some standard of role play. Is it really so very implausible that even decent chain-of-command role play could exist? Even if it's in your character to smash all the windows and rip out all the flowers, am I simply inventing characteristics that don't exist when I assume that some of those great warriors would also listen if their CL or group leader says 'mission accomplished, pull out?'

If so, that's sad.

Hadoryu

Demarcus said:

The reason I view it as such is this: The people that have half a hoot or more about roleplay aren't terribly interested in the combat aspect. From what I've seen, the people that want combat are bloodthirsty PK-berserking smash-things-until-I-run-out-of-lives-or-you-quit-the-game aren't confident what the letters 'RP' stand for in this instance, and sure as hell aren't interested in wasting valuable PK opportunities to smash your face in to sprinkle fairy dust around, hold hands and sing some campfire songs.

I don't think I've seen anyone be this impeccably wrong in a long while.

Daingean said:

snip

Yeah, it can be done. You have to have control over your people for it to happen, of course, which is a matter of charisma and force of personality. If you can't keep your Dourifs from overstaying after the objective is complete, that's an issue that extends past this one exercise.

Teani

Personally, I think this is a great idea!

Enorian, as you said, could burn down Bloodloch's market. Bloodloch could spread sand all around the Core in Duiran, smothering their plants. It makes sense to have a reason to go in, and once it's done, the point is made, people leave and it's up to the other side how to retaliate with some form of proportionate response.

I'd love to see more of this. I'd totally get in to it, and I'm mostly about RP (and some PK), but it would make raiding more interesting for me to join.

Meyvitch

Daingean, set one up, and if I think I can live through it, I'll join you.

Haven

tl;dr: It doesn't hurt to try.

In my opinion, your biggest obstacle would be getting people to participate on either side and give it meaning. It's not fun being an aggressor and getting ignored by the opponent OR having your efforts made meaningless with the defenders simply shrugging. Then you're essentially challenged into finding something that hurts / can't be ignored and then it's often considered griefing. Likewise, it's not fun being constantly beat up on (especially when it's clear you've lost the fight or never had a chance to begin with) OR facing impossible odds as a defender. 

Personally, I really think this kind of stuff is cool but not too many people are interested because for whatever reason they're not interested in combat. Then you're left with some people wondering "Then how do I play this part of the game if there's little to no one to play with?" Plus there's the big elephant in the room that's city raids mean and do absolutely nothing.

Another concern would be retaliation as environment skills or what not are not equally spread across the game.

• Enorian has fire (Luminaries and the Daru).
  
• Bloodloch & Spinesreach have Necromancy (Cabalists and the Indorani).
  
• Duiran is sore out of luck. (Traps do not count in my opinion. And unless I'm mistaken, guilded members of Duiran can only multi-class into the Daru to have access to fire because you MUST be a guilded Luminary to be able to use the Luminary's firebomb skill.)
  

So what are we left with? We need to find ways to give incentives and purpose to the aggressor while protecting the defender so that everyone is able to have fun. We also need to address the issue of everyone having the opportunity and ability to retaliate equally. The equality in retaliation is an easy enough fix in my opinion. Here's what I propose:

I'd like it better if environment skills were removed from guilds altogether and made into city skills that became available to anyone above a certain rank (like CR2 or CR3). Then we could alter the skills to fit the city's general theme.

• Enorian could be altered to something akin to Holy Fire or Divine Radiance (I'd be fine with just regular fire like we have now).
  
• Spinesreach could be changed from Necromancy/Death(Exterminate) to something like Frost or Magic/Chaos Rifts that spread wider and wider. (Tribute to the original Magi home and the Cabal's world destroying experiments for science?).
  
• Duiran could have an overgrowth skill or something. (Changes environment into a man-eating jungle with poisoned spiked plants or something. Or maybe a Locust Swarm of some kind of Dendara Spirits.)
  
• Bloodloch could be altered into some kind of withering Corruption that spreads (or would remain with Exterminate but upgraded to a slow spreadable curse).

Each of these abilities should be spreadable in my opinion and have a counter in recovery while having a material requirement in execution like Firebomb and Exterminate currently do with elemental ash and elemental ice. (...I always wondered why that was from an IC standpoint. Maybe elemental ice are frozen tears from Lleis or maybe the elemental ashes were from Rahn?! It'd be a nice lore piece I think. Anyway, I'm getting off track!)

Next, I think the guard changes are a step in the right direction because they protect the defender but I wish they'd also give raiding a purpose since it'd address both issues of aggression and defending. Otherwise the system just discourages raiding all together as you'll reach a point you can't beat the guards (which is good from a defending standpoint as we do not want a repeat of what happened to Duiran so long ago but it doesn't address the dilemma from an aggression standpoint of 'What's the point? Where's the win condition? Are we just suppose to demoralize the opponent?').

An idea that I think might work that could incorporate many aspects of Aetolia's current world from war to raiding to ylem conflicts would be the following:

• City Raids

Allow two possible win conditions when raiding a city that'll net different but both strategically important rewards:

1. The first win condition would be raiding to the city's central Market Hub. Getting there would award the raiders a certain percentage of the city's resources including ylem. Upon reaching this station, guard complacency should drastically drop making them stronger and harder to kill, essentially forcing the raiders out as they'll die.
   
2. The second win condition would be raiding to the city's central Security/Government Hub. Getting there would weaken the city's Territory Outposts. The Security Hub will house the Outposts' generators basically if that makes sense?
   

Both conditions cannot be won at the same time. Each respective Hub would be a short distance from each other but closer to one of the two city's respective gates. There should also be a certain threshold after a fixed time limit somewhere where guards are immune to death regardless of how strong the raiders are or how many people they bring just in case or when they decide to raid. That way the defenders aren't left in a several hour raid gridlock or at a large disadvantage for being offline and raiders are left with the added challenge of beating the clock to achieve their goal. This could be explained away ICly either through magical means OR better yet as reinforcements arriving from the Outposts explained below.

• Leyline Conflict

The current leyline system would remain the same I think. The War/Military Tree could allow for cool upgrades for City Outposts and Forts (explained below). The Commerce Tree could additionally boost the effect of City Outposts.

• City Territorial Wars via Outposts/Forts
  

Here we can introduce a war system again! Allow cities to construct Outposts (a maximum of 5 per area) and Fortresses (only 1 per area). To construct either an Outpost or a Fortress would require a mild (Outpost) to hefty (Fortress) amount of city materials. The fortress is special in that it requires the city to build a minimum of three outposts in the area first before it can be constructed. City outposts generate resources from that area for the city while fortresses spread the city's worldly influence. What I mean by this is:

If Bloodloch builds a fortress in an area then Blood Banks (like in the Villimo Fields for reference) begin cropping up, evil quests are unlocked in the area, etc. Anything to cosmetically spread the feel of Bloodloch's theme of undeath in the world.

Would also be really nice if we had this change to go with this idea. Been working on this post for over an hour so that'll be it for now. I'll post more at a later date to expand the Outpost/Fortress section to be able to include both PKers and noncomms alike.

Daingean

Man, I just want to rp.

Why does everything have to be mechanical.

Edit: Also. No, no, a thousand times no on city-based skills. I like the lusternian nexus idea to really encourage a bond with the city, but the notion of taking that piece away from guilds turns my stomach.

Haven

Daingean said:

Man, I just want to rp.

Why does everything have to be mechanical.

Edit: Also. No, no, a thousand times no on city-based skills. I like the lusternian nexus idea to really encourage a bond with the city, but the notion of taking that piece away from guilds turns my stomach.

The importance of Guilds have been declining forever now. They're dying. Until we give them a meaningful schtick that meshes with the rest of the game they are going to continue on this course. I wish we would just put them out of their misery and focus on the future.

Daingean

I'd sit and argue the point, but that's not what this topic was for.

I'll just say that I firmly disagree. The lore and community fostered by a guild, for me, is a -huge- amount of why I play. I attribute a huge amount of why I left achaea to the general devolution of the guild as an entity when houses went in.

I will quit Aetolia and never look back, if they decide to go a house-style or guildless route, personally. There is exactly zero draw for me to play a game that lacks that specific atmosphere.

As for the topic I actually wanted to discuss: I understand the draw to having actual, coded reasons for conflict. I -also- understand that those coded reasons -suck- when one side is dominating, whichever side it is. See the old war system. Whatever rewards we offer, if they actually impact the game enough to make them valuable, will ruin enjoyment for the side that isn't winning. I just want to have some meaningful roleplay behind my combat-based interactions with the other side of the game.

I was just curious if other people thought I was dreaming when I thought that a viable thing to ask for.

Haven

Daingean said:

I'd sit and argue the point, but that's not what this topic was for.

I'll just say that I firmly disagree. The lore and community fostered by a guild, for me, is a -huge- amount of why I play. I attribute a huge amount of why I left achaea to the general devolution of the guild as an entity when houses went in.

I will quit Aetolia and never look back, if they decide to go a house-style or guildless route, personally. There is exactly zero draw for me to play a game that lacks that specific atmosphere.

As for the topic I actually wanted to discuss: I understand the draw to having actual, coded reasons for conflict. I -also- understand that those coded reasons -suck- when one side is dominating, whichever side it is. See the old war system. Whatever rewards we offer, if they actually impact the game enough to make them valuable, will ruin enjoyment for the side that isn't winning. I just want to have some meaningful roleplay behind my combat-based interactions with the other side of the game.

I was just curious if other people thought I was dreaming when I thought that a viable thing to ask for.

I do not believe that's entirely true if at all. It's one thing when the rewards changed how skills work (old landmarks) or severely compromised losing organizations (old War System?) but it's entirely different if the rewards were cosmetic. In my example, the only thing Wars would really dictate would be the roleplay aspect (aka, the cosmetics) of the game. Enorian could arguably bring forth the Age of Dawn (or maybe a lesser version of it) if they took out all of Bloodloch's territory. "Haha, we forced the undead underground and out of sight! Age of Dawn is here!" Likewise Bloodloch could bathe the world in darkness, blood and slavery if they conquered everything. All of which would strictly be roleplay. You could still play the game and bash and do whatever normally. The only thing that'd change is the style/background/story of the world. I think that's a good thing.

"Enorian and Duiran has kept the darkness at bay for 200 years! Then treachery struck and Bloodloch arose again as the dominate force. From the north, the scholars have become power hungry barbarians and have swept the world with their ruthless army! WINTER IS HERE!" The possibilities are endless.

Konnorn

I remember the good old days when people just, I dunno, kidnapped one another and the kidnapped person didn't just leave, but actually rp'ed being held hostage until terms were met. Those were the days. I miss rp conflict instead of just gank squads or griefing.

Lin

Konnorn said:

I remember the good old days when people just, I dunno, kidnapped one another and the kidnapped person didn't just leave, but actually rp'ed being held hostage until terms were met. Those were the days. I miss rp conflict instead of just gank squads or griefing.

Really? Because I tried that on two or three occasions and it became a game of "how fast can you keep them from prisming out" or "how long before their big PK daddies come murder you" episodes. I'm crying rose-tinted glasses on that one.

Haven

Lin said:

Konnorn said:

I remember the good old days when people just, I dunno, kidnapped one another and the kidnapped person didn't just leave, but actually rp'ed being held hostage until terms were met. Those were the days. I miss rp conflict instead of just gank squads or griefing.

Really? Because I tried that on two or three occasions and it became a game of "how fast can you keep them from prisming out" or "how long before their big PK daddies come murder you" episodes. I'm crying rose-tinted glasses on that one.

In my experiences, the kidnap schtick worked best with someone you're already familiar with as they tend to trust that the role-play will be enjoyable for both parties.

Konnorn

@Lin: Like I said, I miss the days when this actually worked. It haven't for... many years now, but when I started playing, it happened to me a few times and it was not all about prisming out or having your big arti-ladden friend bash their heads in.

 

@Haven: True, but it is still possible to do it with people you are not too familiar with. If it's someone who is willing to emote, it is possible to do it with a stranger and just roll with the punches. More difficult, but possible.

 

I remember at one point, two people kidnapped one of my chars into Kentorakro, because they were unhappy with something my guild had done. They blocked the entrance and put down a monolith and said "Hey, you are our hostage. Tell your guild leaders this and this. If they don't do it, we will kill you." Sure, a death is not that bad to take, but it was far more awesome rping it out and at the end, I got out alive after some back and forth compromising.

 

This wasn't even anything complicated, but it -could- be, if people are willing to invest some time into it. There could be beatings, poking with red-hot metal sticks. You name it! Have some imagination. If you find someone who just use an escape skill and run away and call on a team to go gank you, well, it will happen and it sucks. But maybe, just maybe, you will find someone willing to actually go through with it. I know I would, but I'm not really involved in politics atm, so not sure how valuable I will be. :P

Demarcus

Apparently I'm impeccably wrong. But from the discussion that has ensued, it sounds like you have the people who actually treat this like a roleplaying game, and are willing to be kidnapped, etc. And then you have the people who don't, and just prism out. You're trying to combine water and oil here, by bringing roleplay into an almost exclusively-PK activity (raiding). Without an emulsifier (i.e. the Divine), one side is going to float on top of the other and keep them down!

Alistaire

Again. PK and RP are not mutually exclusive.

Daingean

I know what you're saying Demarcus.

And it's that exact mentality that my friend equally maintains would keep the concept of 'role play raids' from ever being a viable thing.

So. Take the kool-aid and stop being such a Demarcus Downer. Tell your friends. Make the minority who'd be cool with the kidnapping into the majority, one person at a time. We'll always have the number crunchers whose only sense of satisfaction will be knowing their name is in the log six hundred times for slain loyals.

But clearly, -some- of us exist that'd like there to be a deeper, more role related interaction that still calls itself a raid.

Mastema

This can and does work, in regards to kidnapping. I was kidnapped by Bloodloch and forced into service or be killed by two people. I also did it too people by threatening their family with extortion. In fact 2/3 played along gave me my gold and we went about our merry ways. Others... well yeah called their guild and I died, but that is the fun of not knowing what the outcome will be.

Demarcus

I never said that RP and PK are mutually exclusive. I'm saying in this case, without Divine intervention, the probability of them acting in a non-mutually exclusive way is almost non-existant. As I previously stated, I think it would be awesome. But for me, I view it along the pipeline dream of sustainable nuclear fusion for energy production. Gonna take a lot of work, it's theoretically possible, but probably not in our lifetimes will we see it.

As for the culture change... well, getting your face beat in repeatedly is a lot more convincing for winning hearts and minds (or fear and submission, as the case may be) than kool-aid. Now, if you give me a cool hat or a neat little pen... well, then we're getting somewhere.

Fenrir

Lin said:

Konnorn said:

I remember the good old days when people just, I dunno, kidnapped one another and the kidnapped person didn't just leave, but actually rp'ed being held hostage until terms were met. Those were the days. I miss rp conflict instead of just gank squads or griefing.

Really? Because I tried that on two or three occasions and it became a game of "how fast can you keep them from prisming out" or "how long before their big PK daddies come murder you" episodes. I'm crying rose-tinted glasses on that one.

If anyone reads this, I would love to be kidnapped and held for random, even though nobody would pay it because Fenrir is in a transitional period.

Arbre

Fenrir said:

If anyone reads this, I would love to be kidnapped and held for random, even though nobody would pay it because Fenrir is in a transitional period.

Look, that's not why no one would pay, and we all know it.

Fenrir

Arbre said:

Fenrir said:

If anyone reads this, I would love to be kidnapped and held for random, even though nobody would pay it because Fenrir is in a transitional period.

Look, that's not why no one would pay, and we all know it.

:<

Arbre just put baby Fenrir in a corner.

Meyvitch

I'm with Fenrir. It would be awesome and I'd finally get to see the inside of Bloodloch!