Ascendril. A conundrum.

OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
edited July 2019 in Echo Canyon
Hello. Neighborhood frog here.

So I will fully preface this with the fact that I am inherently not really good at coding, back in my day we were fancy combatants when we set macros for monk punches, but that also kind of leads in to other things and the bounty of salt I have had the past couple weeks since mage release. I will kind of tell a story here and my opinions, and I want to open it up for others to comment because I think that dialogue is important. I have already somewhat commented to @Keroc (..very saltily) and @Tiur (..less salt, just kinda bummed) regarding this and figured I would open it to others as well to share their feelings.

I, like many others was super excited about mage, though I had little input on the theme that would come about or involvement in any testing I would have assumed it to be a more magical experience, though upon testing and confirming with other people as well as the tester who has not had alot of time due to their work, it is pretty clear that Ascendril is another limb-based class, focused on pushing salves, and breaking limbs, there are other routes but they all kind of revolve around limbs. 2 of the three glimpses focus on limbs, the only useful FIRE skill focuses on limb damage, overall you are just playing another glorified limb class and stuck in the same vein of gameplay as Templar or Illuminai, so Enorian is just losing that magical, sorcerer/wizard feel that many people came to the Ascendril for in the first place. Sciomancer seems to have kept theirs with cool new afflictions that require Spirit players to upkeep a new tattoo (firefly) and lots of affliction qualifiers with a mobile singularity that follows the player. Our fulcrum are not as useful, they are more supportive to the route we are ironed out for, we dont have the passive mystical abilities, its just a bunch of kale under a meaty limb steak.

Second note - It's NOT beginner friendly, even bashing requires a rotation, I will be first to admit I feel my failings as a GM for not understanding better how to explain to new players and current players alike how to do things and play the class, I am trying to figure it out but I am getting incredibly frustrated with it. Unfortunately @Eliadon works alot, @Isia doesn't play the class and for months prior to release I asked if I could have information to update scrolls or prepare myself for this and was reassured on a few occasions that "It's not going to be that big of a change, don't worry" (Also by risk of spoilers, I forgot to add that...they didn't wanna spoil it for me) - So not only have I lost the vision of what my class is supposed to feel like, but im basically at the point of not wanting to play cause I cant even figure out the class I am supposed to play, meanwhile I see the Sciomancers flourishing with shared information from @Emir and having a heck of a good time and it just makes me feel like a trash player.

Anyways, I am sorry for using this to vent like I have...I just feel I cant be the only one who feels like Ascendril is half put together, while Sciomancer seems far more fleshed out and MAGE-Y.

Feel free to comment.

EDIT: I really hope my tone doesnt sound bad or anything, I write sometimes and read back and I am not intending it to sound like that, I really just wanna see if others have feedback of their experiences with it and have a discussion to see if there is maybe something I am missing or present to the upstairs folks to improve upon.
Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
Aloli

Comments

  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    I suspect this is a case of choice paralysis, and will elaborate further after I'm home - there is a pretty good route available that is very much not a limb route
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 958 admin
    I am very into hearing people's opinions on this, I just have a request! Could you separate your thoughts from combat route and 'feel' a little? I need to both understand why they don't feel like Mages enough, and why they're mechanically not what was hoped for. It could be that a limb-route doesn't feel magey, so feel free to put it that way.
    OonaghAloli
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
    Coming from the point of view of a full time player of the Syssin class:

    Syssin is hard to fight in. It's got a razor-thin line that must be walked to get a kill. There can't be any unnecessary aspects to an offense, or the lock will be lost and you'll be back to square one with a long road ahead of you to get to where you were. It's a large hurdle for new players of the class to get a handle on, and few ever reach a competent level in 1v1 that they couldn't easily attain in another class, plus syssin group viability is on the low end of the spectrum. If "it's hard to play" is an argument to change the class further, then the best response I can deliver is to suck it up. Some classes are just harder to play. Use it to attract players who want a challenge.

    I'd argue that the fulcrum is better than the singularity simply because it makes your spells hurt more if you're standing in the room with them. Your fireballs hit me for a massive amount.
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    I am not even as inherently concerned about the combat part of it, it is more the approach to present the class to my guild as a whole. I am struggling more with how the skills work with each other. Bashing involves rotating through three skills for the resonances for maximum dps output, its not just like firelash thing. Then there are some parts of it which have been made almost artificially difficult for the sake of doing it like aligning some of the skills for the right effect, and I think that is more what you are speaking of @Fezzix which I am fine with, honestly for PK, people shouldnt definitely be able to just mash a button and 1v1 someone and I understand that. I probably wont try to be on that echelon of combat prowess, but for those who would want to be, I think its good to learn and do it...use your degree in coding and have fun I say.

    Even for supporting people, there are things like channels for effects, that basically push salve balances, while i looks like angry maelstroms of power, it behaves like a walk fifteen miles uphill in the snow barefoot. The effects presented dont really match what is being done to the players.

    My gripe is how it feels. We went from calling upon the elements and blasting foes with lightning, fire, ice and water, to conjuring flashy things that do relatively different effects to the player than what the visual provides. It looks like ALOT of work went into making it seem like a mage class, but instead it does things like afflict you and break your limbs. Sciomancer has this really cool shadow mechanic that presents an aura in the room to people that they need keep light active to prevent it from doing effects, Sciomancers singularity follows them around as they call upon its power. Our Fulcrum...has to be called anytime we move, the glimpses comparatively seem underwhelming to that which the singularity provides, we have a couple fulcrum abilities that are basically just clones of crystalism with a new flair to them.

    It just seems like less went into it to keep the master of the elements and more went into the 1v1 combat DLC over the overall aesthetic of it, then it was put in a cool mage packaging.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • AloliAloli Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    I don't think it's fair to leave out a big portion of Oonagh's post and focus on "it's hard to play". The main point he's making is that the revamp has lost sight of the feel of a mage being magical and elemental.

    So it's perfectly reasonable for someone who has spent a long time trying to understand and experiment with his friends on the different routes of Ascendril to make the statements he did and feel the way he does.

    It's not unreasonable to ask for both classes to mirror each other in certain skills, element and utility -wise and it certainly is not unreasonable to want to keep the mage-feel of his class.

    And to comment on Tiur's request, limb-routes don't feel like something mages would do, I envision mages having a more environmental (almost shaman-like) feel, the idea with the glimpses was good.
    Oonagh
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    From what I've seen, the aesthetic is still very much blasting people with the elements. They even got the extra element of Air added to their toolkit. His argument is revolving around mechanics and how some of it is inconvenient because you have to factor in swapping attacks and calling in your fulcrum.

    I argue that the changes to how you have to string your attacks together can ADD to the lore of how Ascendril is presented and how the Elemental Planes react to one another through the Spirit element present in the fulcrum.

    I've also seen Ascendril as supremely effective in group combat. They get better audit than the Sciomancers, which by the way is abysmal, and they get Fulcrum Shift, which is effectively a self-banish and extremely powerful in 1v1 or in groups.

    EDIT: I think the current iteration of Ascendril and Sciomancer are a BETTER aesthetic for what they ought to be. Old mage was just spamming stone/ice spikes and toning vibrations in crystalism. Maybe a Voidgaze or Aquasphere, but that hardly encompasses the full range of what they could do. There's so much more lore and a better presentation behind the current toolkit of both classes.
    Post edited by Fezzix on
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    So, just going to chime in here as someone that has been Ascendril for all of maybe a month, but has had the class for way longer, and also as someone with very limited coding ability (pretty much none), low-tier PK participation (only in groups, pretty much), and someone who plays from a phone/with no system most of the time (roughly 80-90% play time).

    Thematically? New Ascendril still feels very magey. I can pretty much just cast any ability at random and it'll do something cool.

    That being said...

    In practice, Ascendril is kind of a pain. Mainly talking about the whole Resonance aspect. I hate rotations for bashing. So much. In a visual MMORPG like World of Warcraft where you just mash hotkeys every few seconds and can visually see your buffs/debuffs? Yeah, that works fine. I mained Mage for years when I played. In a text game? It's a headache.

    A large number of spells in Elemancy have Resonance effects. Meaning they do something extra if your Fulcrum is Resonating with a certain element. So in order to maximize your damage, you can't simply just spam the same ability over and over as pretty much all other classes do.

    You're Syssin? Easy. Just BITE <thing> CAMUS or GARROTE until it dies.

    Templar? DSK/DSW/ZEAL depending on what weapon you're using.

    Ascendril? CAST <spell1> <thing>, YAY RESONANCE, CAST <spell2> <thing>, NEW RESONANCE,

    Hnnng.

    Let me put it this way. Bashing is a really mindless and already kind of painful task for most people, but at least most classes can just spam a single attack. Any rotational abilities or abilities that have different effects are support or passive. Templar auras do different things depending on whether they're set as an Aura or Blessing, but they're very much a Set It and Forget It type thing. Monks have Stances, but again, largely Set It and Forget It except when knocked prone, but they're easy and quick to put back up. Wayfarer Fury abilities? You pop Fury as you need it, but again, you can still largely forget about them and still do fine.

    With the above, you don't really need to do a ton to optimize your damage while bashing.

    With Ascendril, you're forced to juggle. As far as I'm aware, no other class forces that kind of juggling with their bashing attacks.

    For those of you with fancy systems and actually have the skill and TIME to bother with scripting this stuff, this probably means nothing to you.

    For someone like me (hello, phoneTolia where I have to manually type out every command and trying to script anything in Blowtorch is maddening), or for someone who's super new to the class, bashing in Ascendril feels clunky and non-intuitive, and just...why? Bashing is already really masochistic. Why make it even more so for a class that's already pretty squishy? Every other class's bashing amounts to 'spam this one attack over and over to kill unicorns'.

    If my tone comes off as insulting and confrontational, it's not meant to be. More of a reflection of my thought process as I look over the class and notice stuff and just go '...why?'.

    Retention is what keeps the game and orgs alive, and if a class isn't fun or at least somewhat intuitive to play, people are just going to flock to other orgs, and this is more true of newbies/people who aren't able to invest a ton in multiple classes, lessons, etc.

    NOTE: I should clarify that everything I've said largely applies to BASHING and fresh off the boat newbies/people unable to invest a ton. PK and making the class work there involves much more dedication and investment.
    Fezzix
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    I'll see if I can put together an easy blowtorch/Nexus script for the bashing rotation.

    Still work though, likely won't touch that until Saturday
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
    @Phoenecia You're right, thanks for touching on a point I left out. Bashing as Ascendril is very annoying and offputting to newer players, and Sciomancer bashing is weird too with Gloom and Shadowprice involved. It puts a skillcap on something that doesn't require as much skill, for sure.

    The overall argument I'm seeing, though, is that the aesthetic is disliked because it doesn't "feel magey," which is a perspective on which I take the contrary position: It's MORE magey now than it used to be.
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    @Oonagh You went from calling upon a smaller pool of the elements and throwing venom packed snowballs at people to opening up glimpses of the planes themselves and actually blasting people with the elements. 

    @Aloli it is actually completely unreasonable to ask that. One of the big points of the revamp was to divorce the two classes from being mirrors. There's a minor mirror in the group utility

    Bashing: @Fezzix there is absolutely nothing wrong with scio bashing. You stack the 2 commands and spam them like normal. If you can't shadow price then gloom fails and you fever like normal. Ascendril I can't talk about, but I will say I like neat things like rotations. I'm also willing to bet if Eliadon had never said anything no one would even know you were suppose to bash like that, and it'd just be a near thing some people discovered. 
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatFezzixAloli
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think, perhaps, what @Oonagh is requesting is comments or suggestions on how to tie the new mage skills together with the lore and function of the guild, or how to best explain things to new players in a way that makes sense both from an "I'm an elemental master" point of view as well as the mechanical results of using said skills. Perhaps?

    To me, it seems more reasonable for elemental powers to give physical afflictions than mental ones, so a limb route makes sense. I don't know enough about the Ascendril skills to say for sure, but if the "feel" is not there, there can be a few different reasons.

    Either there needs to be a better connection between cause and effect. Just making up an example here: Blasting with a fireball should result in someone being ablaze and taking damage, not break their leg. To get that effect, you'd likely need to involve something with more weight, like a meteor made of earth. If the Ascendril don't have earth, how is it that their other elements can cause limb breaks? Pelt them with gigantic hail? A whirlwind pulling them into the air and ramming them into the ground? What I mean is, it had to make sense, and feel like one is performing magic, and using said elements in a plausible way.

    Or the needs to be a better connection between the new skills and the lore. "We used to just lash things with energy, but these days, we've realised that if we're do <thing 1>, then <thing 2> and 
    <thing 3>, and then rotate between them, we get a much more efficient result. This is because of how x is connected to y. As long as those threethings that need to be done make sense, and is easy to explain, it shouldn't be a problem. If that's difficult, however, it might be a good idea to sit down with guild leadership to find a way to make it more intuitive to at least get started?

    It could also be that mages are supposed to be a bit flashy. I admit that walking around with a super massive black hole hovering behind me is freakishly cool, so why shouldn't an Ascendril be able to be trailed by an element of their choice? A raincloud that empowers their water magic, a whirlwind to charge their air magic, flaming hair from which they send forth their fireballs? Just something to make it more... mage-y.

    It should be noted that since we'd have multiclass now, guilds should be less tied to skills than they are, with their focus being on other functions. That, however, has not quite yet caught up with the world in all ways, since some guilds are far more connected to their class skills than others, making it more difficult for them to adapt. In these cases guidance and assistance is essential in order to ensure the guild doesn't fall flat, along with regular check-ups. It might be a good idea in general to check with all guilds if they are able to manage multiclassers in a good way without compromising their primary guild function or if they need help with that. 



    OonaghAloli
  • HallisHallis Member Posts: 15
    Going in order to address @Tiur 's post:

    I think Ascendril is currently very good at supporting group pk. No real complaints there mechanically except that personally i find aegis to be very unengaging and will likely get someone else to use it whenever possible, and i wish it did not feel so necessary to use. I have not tried 1v1 at all and don't have many opinions on it. I have one major complaint: from everything I have seen and been able to put together, the limb route seems far more fully realized than the affliction route. There are a few reasons for this: fire resonance is very useful on many of our spells, but fire spells themselves barely interact with the affliction route, meaning that if you want fire resonance you must essentially waste a round; there is no affliction-based insta and enrapture is not usable in group combat, as it both destroys the fulcrum and resets all the setup on it (like dissonance), whereas before we had a high damage burst for applying all three marks; two of the three glimpses are salve/limb focused, as mentioned in Oonagh's post; there is essentially no interaction between fire and air for either affs or limb setups, which lessens the feeling of being an elementalist. Now why is this a problem? The class is strong. You all did a wonderful job making a viable class with neat abilities. But prior to the rework, ascendril was primarily focused on afflictions, and now the primary focus has apparently shifted to limbs, which is not really something the class needed and not something I peronally wanted. Some of the old playstyle is preserved in the affliction-based air route which is no doubt strong but feels under-realized and (relative to the strength of shatter routes) somewhat pointless. I don't think the class needs sweeping changes to touch that up, either (small changes to some fire spells, adding air resonances to some etc). To sum it up, though, mechanically the class went from one playstyle to almost a completely different one, and I kinda preferred the older one in terms of routes and playstyle. That's not going to be everyone's experience, obviously. 

    Thematically the class still seems magey in most ways. However, it doesnt really feel like old ascendril. We essentially changed the way we accessed the elements and added Air to our roster. It's hard to explain the feeling, but I kind of agree that we lost some of the classical wizard flavor and I have no idea what replaced it. Are we sorcerers? Doctor Strange? We feel halfway between an elementalist and an arcanist and I'm not sure where the focus of the class really is, whereas from an outside perspective sciomancer does seem more put together thematically. That is not an accusation of bias, just the easiest comparison. Sciomancer seems like a shadowy force/gravity mage, and ascendril doesn't seem to have as clear a concept imho.
    OonaghAloli
  • ImvraImvra Immortal Member, Immortal Posts: 101 Immortal
    The mechanics I cannot touch on, but Ascendril are mages using Spirit to control unwieldy elements with greater control and versatility than they could before.

    What is it that you used to have that you now feel is lacking? What do you think your skills should do, that they aren't doing, when it comes to feeling appropriately Magicky(tm)?
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    @Imvra I'm going to make a bold assumption here and just say that everyone misses Staffcast. That's the only "mage" thing I can think of that was regularly used with old Mage, because there is nothing "classically wizard" about spinning crystals and shooting spikes of ice/stone from the ground.

    EDIT: @Hallis In DnD, wizards use complex gestures and vocal components to manipulate the Weave. In a similar vein, Ascendril use complex gestures and a Spirit fulcrum to channel the Elemental Planes and manipulate their energy. New Ascendril is much more "wizard" than old Ascendril ever was, if we're using that as a bench mark.

    @Teani The lore behind the Ascendril guild is -heavily- focused on the study of Planar physics and the nature of the Elements on the Prime and how they interact with each other. Current Ascendril class mechanics fit extremely well with the guild's rp.
    HavenIazamat
  • HallisHallis Member Posts: 15
    edited July 2019
    Perhaps wizard was a poor choice of words, as unlike the earlier allusion to sorcerer I didn't mean to make a call to DnD. Like I mentioned it's tough to explain exactly what makes me feel a bit less ascendril in this incarnation, especially on the phone on the bus ride home. I'll edit this post (or make a new one, depending) when I get home and try to explain more clearly.

    Home, now. OK.

    I want to clarify again that I think y'all have done a stellar job with the rework. I've enjoyed the events and I've enjoyed the class in most situations. Calling them less wizardly was the wrong phrasing, but it's hard to explain this exactly. I feel as though thematically we have some inconsistencies that make it difficult for me to get a real image in my head of what the class is, which is probably why I struggle to compare it with old Ascendril in terms of theme. As I've mentioned above, I think sciomancer is pretty easy to define the theme of - unhinged, shadow-and-gravity mage. Ascendril feels largely defined by our elemancy, but arcanism is also a huge part of it, and then a lot of our fulcrum spells work with the Planes of the elements. So there's a strong elemental theme with some competing - maybe detracting - arcanism (arcaneskin has replaced fireveil, countercurrent has replaced waterward, etc). Even within the elemental bits, though, things are a bit odd. Spells like firelash feel more tight, focused, and controlled.


    As firelash is a very key part of one route, as well as part of the bashing rotation, it's one of the spells we'll use most often. The other spells in the bashing rotation are frostblade and windlance, which are similarly controlled-feeling, thematically.

    On the other hand, we have spells like inferno, and maybe a better example, firestorm.


    Firestorm we literally cannot control. It goes wherever it damn well pleases (which is neat, even if the rest of Enorian doesn't think so!) but presents some thematic dissonance. The glimpses (Maelstrom, Typhoon, and Inferno) are all also similarly less controlled-feeling, as we're more harnessing the wild Elements themselves and letting them loose into a room. Flare gives a semblance of control over them, but the impression I've gotten from it is that it's more us "flaring" up the elements already present, perhaps releasing some of the little control we have over them. To use the D&D benchmark, this feels like a sorcerer, whereas the tighter and more controlled spells feel more wizardly.

    It's entirely possible this dissonance is intended - but for me, currently, the problem I'm running into is that I can't tell if we're supposed to be more controlled, in contrast to the more unhinged sciomancer feel, less in control and more directing raw elemental fury at our enemies, as a more fiery mirror of them, or if it's somewhere in-between and as players we basically pick which one we prefer to think of our character as.

    It's entirely possible this is solely my own issue with the thematics as they are. I can't speak for everyone who may or may not have some thematic dissonance with the new class. But that's my more in-depth explanation.

    Edit: meant firewhirl not firestorm lmao rip
    Post edited by Hallis on
    Aloli
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    To respond with what I was tagged about originally:

    I showed like 3 people how to bash. Any other information regarding Sciomancer has been dished out in conversation with people I always converse with about PK.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
  • ChurchChurch Member Posts: 71 ✭✭✭
    I personally believe the class is feels very magical, but some of the mechanics are definitely wonkier than your average chocolate factory. In fact -
    Fezzix said:


    I'd argue that the fulcrum is better than the singularity simply because it makes your spells hurt more if you're standing in the room with them. Your fireballs hit me for a massive amount.

    - anyone care to elaborate on this one? This is an effect I haven't been able to replicate.

  • IesidIesid Member Posts: 102 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    Ascendril feels magical, but lacks the flair and tropes I would associate with wizards - high spell diversity, many different schools of magic, big enchantments, etc. Focusing them on limb damage feels like a mistake from a flavor perspective because I don't think "break their legs" when I think of a wizard or spellcaster - I think "tremendous firestorms and prismatic spray, making people take stat damage, raising and contracting minions from other planes, casting and creating magical structures or items, having obscure contingency spells and metamagic".

    The class is assuredly cohesive. It is mechanically sound in a vacuum - though I don't really agree with the affliction distribution dilating or shifting from time to time. I feel it has its own design pitfalls that will need addressing as the weeks go on, just like Sciomancer does. It just feels dissonant (lol) with the concept of a spellcaster in traditional means. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is definitely jarring and removed a beloved lineup of tropes from the class/tether in exchange for making the remake's playstyle make sense.

    I also don't think Spirit needed another limb class.

    I was looking forward to diverse and impressive spellcaster, not a surgical firewhip-wielder. Were I the one that had written the design document for this class, it would have looked much different from what you ended up releasing - but that's why I'm a player and you guys are producers/content creators.
    OonaghZaila
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 775 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To kind of add to the commentary on new Ascendril not feeling as 'wizardy' as expected, I'm going to echo that focusing on limb damage is probably a big part as to why that's the case.

    When you think of a wizardy spellcaster, the image that comes to mind is a mage throwing around all sorts of crazy spells, and for the most part, Ascendril is that. But damaging and crippling limbs doesn't really fit into that image. Mages (mainly thinking D&D and a lot of RPGs here) are typically nukers that are squishy, but can obliterate targets with their wide array of spells, which can carry additional effects. Even in D&D, Wizards aren't just damage dealers - they're great at delivering status ailments and battlefield control.

    Using fire spells? Oh hey, you're on fire now, or accumulating blaze stacks. Or maybe heat exhaustion. Ice spells? Oh hey, you're frozen or stuck in place, or maybe even slowed a little bit or moving is a little harder. Air spells? Death by a thousand cuts because you're bleeding a ton, or maybe you get shoved around by buffeting winds.

    I think that's the 'magical, magey' aspect that people are feeling is missing.
    Oonagh
  • ImvraImvra Immortal Member, Immortal Posts: 101 Immortal
    edited July 2019
    I appreciate the feedback, although I would love it if I could get some more specifics as to what is so jarring about the tacit-caster design (aesthetically)? Other than the limb class issue, I'm having a really difficult time understanding the disconnect.

    You're pivoting between major elements with incredible ability. Ascendril do create tremendous firestorms and hailstorms, and they summon efreeti from another plane to fight at their command. Through their planar boring they draw moments of the elemental planes down into Prime. You have your staff (if you choose), your mistrals will leave enemies raw and sensitive to attack if resonant with fire, a coldsnap with resonant air will leave them masochistic, a frost brand will repeatedly freeze a victim and slow their ability to heal while making them vulnerable to certain kinds of damage.
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    What we envisoned/expected.




    How it feels to play.


    Minus the cool time manipulation stuff

    I think to summarize it all, we went from blasty explody, elemental bomb mages, to something refined and focused and controlled in a martial matter, to where we just blasted our foes with the elements before. We lost alot of the conjuring of big effects, for resonance, afflictions and targetted limb business that seems like a complete change in discipline from an IC standpoint. Sciomancers and their control of shadow, swallowing up things in the darkness...is a smoother transition in feel, over where Ascendril didn't have the same kind of foundation, and while we are focused on planar study it feels like, we drilled holes in the planes with boring and all the sudden learned how to focus the elements and possess a control we didnt have before. It feels more martial and less magical.

    I know I have sent my thoughts privately to Keroc, Imvra, Razmael and Tiur, and honestly alot of it is anxieties with the change and feeling less able to present myself in a combatant manner and feeling that perhaps im not a strong GM because of these things. I know alot of it is with my own insecurities to express myself as a competent leader because im not able to really fight well, I do have a great group of people who do support me and ensure me it will get easier, but im having a struggle.

    I really do appreciate the feedback people are providing on feelings of the class, and routes that can be taken. It does help me find some realization where is not typically one of my strongsuits.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • ImvraImvra Immortal Member, Immortal Posts: 101 Immortal
    We're disappointed to hear that there's been dissatisfaction with the reception of the Ascendril release. We'll take this as a lesson for the future; we were trying a more dynamic version of magery than the generic sort on offer in the prior version of the class, but it doesn't seem like we've landed the mark. We recognize that archetype shifts can be a shock and a challenge, similar to when the Druids became the Shamans.

    Further revamping and a total rewrite are both outside of the present scope, but we'll be monitoring the situation and making adjustments, as we do with every new class. Our attention will be on ensuring that the new Ascendril's affliction routes are as robust as they need to be. Though it is unlikely the class will depart from its limb routes, there is potential there to expand on the other routes and make them stand out.
    Oonagh
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    I want to say its not as much dissatisfaction as confusion, I think you developed an amazing class and it it appears as fun, enjoyable and unique.
    Its just kinda what you said, like when the Druids became Shamans, it feels very different and has an awkward entry point for someone not used to it and the style presented.

    I am 100 percent okay being Dr. Strange and having a cool control element to the elements, maybe we could modify HELP ASCENDRIL RP to reflect our elemental ability/focus alongside that vein if that would be cool @Imvra - I am on board to adapt to change, im just kinda ....went from reeling a bit in the difference to adjusting slowly. As I think most people are.

    Maybe something to say we are less sorcerery/dnd wizard and more along the vein of a control mage, controlling the battle with our elemental abilities, and influencing the surroundings.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • FezzixFezzix Member Posts: 320 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2019
    @Church I was wrong about the fulcrum, Ascendril get the Clarity glyph which doubles mana cost while increasing spell damage. The fulcrum is unrelated.
    Post edited by Fezzix on
  • TeaniTeani Shadow Mistress SwedenMember Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think perhaps sometimes complete silence in order to present things with an element if surprise to the game might not be the vest approach. Sure, Admin had testers for the skills in order to balance it, but perhaps keeping the org leaders in the loop with discussions in order to have a smooth transition would be a good thing.

    I believe, but I might be a bit naive here, that org leaders are aware of how much fun it will be to their members if things come as a surprise, so they won't ruin the events themselves,  but at least they can be better prepared to lead the guild forward.

    I'm not saying it should be full disclosure, but discussions to create a smoother transition, perhaps even a tiny bit of player-initiated build-up?

    Just my thoughts for future releases that affect orgs. 



    OonaghXeniaAloli
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