Guids and Cities?

Xenia

How would you like us to present these problems to you, once we have identified them?
- Just laying out the problem in the first place. When the guilds were changed we were told this: from on high we were told to shake things up or else. So we did this. There was no explanation as to what the issue being addressed was, just a looming threat and reaction. To this day I still don't understand what the purpose of the change was or whether it ever achieved the desired goal.

How do you want us to move past the stages of argument where we simply won't see eye-to-eye? The reality is not everything will be a popularity poll, although they are useful for checking temperature. In the end, the team will need to make a decision and work with it, and some of those will not be popular. They can, and should, however, better consider and acknowledge the playerbase's experience.
- To be clear, the anger about this isn't about the decision to force guild/city and instead taking 2 years to let a few people hang out in limbo and then announce them as grandfathered in. Why only partially implement the system and punish the players that complied? All I'm learning here is keep doing what I want when I don't see eye to eye and ignore calls made and force them to implement it. How to fix it, stick to what you say you're going to do or undo it. Don't start changing the rules midgame and penalize the players who attempt to adhere by them. Edit: To expand on this, as it's very much the root of my anger from the proxy war. A lot of the decision making was ad-hoc but was changing the rules in the middle of the game. It felt like punishing the players involved because suddenly rules were changing and calls were being made midway. Yes rules to games change and evolve, but follow through and do them while also respecting how it's going to impact the moment of the game. Point and case, changing rules midway an event is poor timing, it cheapens the whole experience to a point in which it has negative value.

How do you want us to approach situations where we agree with some people but not others, which typically becomes a debate about administrative bias?
-See the anwer to the quesiton above.
How do you want us to present possible solutions to you?
-Present the solutions with a clear explanation on how far along the decision process decision makers are on, as well as a realistic time line on how far out those implementations really are. Example: This is something we're thinking about addressing, we are giving ourselves X number of months to come up with a solution and Y number of months to construct it. Don't expect to see anything from this discussion for Z amount of time. Give a measurement to exactly how much player voices are influencing the decision making process. Something more than, 'we care about what you think.' Instead I wold prefer to hear something like, '10% of our decision making process will involve taking what you all say and influencing our final choice.'

Alathesia

Rasani said:

Frankly, I think the best way to embody this "city and guilds entwined" issue would be for every city to have a system like Duiran does: one city leader from each guild. It makes the whole city tied guilds thing make sense and, in theory, prevents this concern about a whole guild being displeased by a city.

I agree with this, specially for Bloodloch because at the present moment only guaranteed seat in leadership is the Dominion and that I feel is unfair.

Imvra said:

The Pools have determined that:

1. Guilds are part of Cities and therefore need to be clearly anchored in their parent organization. This is a non-negotiable.
   
2. Cities are becoming a larger focus of base communal engagement and involvement and are becoming more of a priority.
   
3. Some guilds veered too far away from their parent cities and their own foundations (from their root lore, root purpose, and spread of membership). This has happened for multiple reasons in multiple places, some healthy, some not.
   
4. Guilds need to be reintegrated within their parent organizations for consistent identity and mechanical presence.
   

This I also agree with. Guilds were made to be part of the city, to make up it's whole. As explained to me during the city/guild tether Carnifex were made to be the defenders of Bloodloch, that is their role.

As for the future I really think the majority of us want follow through as I have mentioned before. We all understand changes are going to be made that we wont like or agree with, at least I hope we are all adult enough to know these things will happen. But a better explanation of -why- would be helpful. Why do you feel this is needed? How do you think this is going to make the game a better experience for us. While we still might not agree on it, at least we will have an understanding of why is it is being done. When we had the Townhall about the city/guild tether it was pretty much just said this is what is going to be done deal with it. There was no explanation really of how this is supposed to effect us in a positive way. And by the way it has been a much needed positive change for Bloodloch. The city was so quiet, dead, for so long. This change helped waken up the city. So I can see the positive change but others may not, specially those who were not in Bloodloch before and after the change.

Macavity

Imvra said:

Questions:

• How would you like us to present these problems to you, once we have identified them?
  

I think a meeting with the leader or leadership team of the player base would be great. I think everyone that is in charge of a guild, city, or order wants the group to generally be successful and grow with new and exciting things. Just given a chance to be part of something and build it with the pools feeling like our concerns and thoughts are being heard and taken into consideration.

Imvra said:

How do you want us to move past the stages of argument where we simply won't see eye-to-eye? The reality is not everything will be a popularity poll, although they are useful for checking temperature. In the end, the team will need to make a decision and work with it, and some of those will not be popular. They can, and should, however, better consider and acknowledge the playerbase's experience.

There is always going to be times where we do not see eye to eye on things, but if we can be given some information as to why and even the thought process behind, and where it will lead to, this would help to allow us to understand what is being considered and even help us to prep a little on RP for changes that are to come.

Imvra said:

How do you want us to approach situations where we agree with some people but not others, which typically becomes a debate about administrative bias?

Truthful, honest discussion on what the decision is and why. As for administrative bias, I feel this myself, and I think having the Gods wake or interact if they are Patron of a guild or city would help in this case. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw Ivoln, at least a message or something to let us know that we are not on our own would be great. I am not sure about other GMs, but I have a few orgreq's in that have not been touched from what I can see, and I am eager to work on them. I understand there is a limited number in the pools but if you create a system to allow us to interact with the pools then it needs to be looked at and worked. If that makes sense for lack of better wording...

Imvra said:

How do you want us to present possible solutions to you?

This could be done in fun ways like with NPCs, Gods, or other ways to either present to us the choices and then allow us to decide or push us in a direction you want us to go, but at least allow us to see other options, so we do not feel like it was the only solution that was thought of. Like if we choose the wrong choice, have something fail and cause us to go back a step and choose again. If all else fails give us the information in a townhall or some other means.



The end result is we all want to do better and make it an enjoyable game for all. Its obvious that we care a lot about this game or we would not spend so much time on the forums expressing our thoughts and opinions.

Zhukov

I think the city was a good thing overall, some guilds had far too many of their members outside their resident cities. Could have been handled differently though as it did kill some guilds. Looked like it was an attempt to get ready for city conflict that never happened.

Xenia

Multiple times it's been asked why this decision was made, what the desired outcome was and if it was met. Never once has this been answered, it's continuously skirted around. How can there be any moving forward or pushing the cart out when there's a complete refusal to explain the decision and its plans. If there's no information, then say that, or if there was, why not be transparent about it?

I mean yeah, you can keep pushing the cart out of the ditch, but by my count it's been pushed into the ditch a few times, I've been party to pushing it out of the ditch a few times, now I'm just left wondering what the driver's been drinking in order to understand what kind of ride I'm on.

Haven

Imvra said:

While I work on outlining this goal tapestry, I would like to hear from you some actionable steps that you think would improve communication and problem assessment between players and the Pools. 

Like many have said before me, simply following through in a timely and more importantly consistent manner will do a lot to alleviate some of the communication issues. That said here are some actionable items:

• Quarterly communications - This can be done like a town-hall style event or even something as simple as a 'feedback' thread every 3-4 months. This is probably the easiest and most effective option honestly. Your team just have to keep it up. You start to do it for like half a year and then stop all together for years on end. It does not need to be even a large extravagant outline of everything. Something as simple as "We have project <x>, <y>, and <z> expected to roll out over the next quarter. Most of the adjustments will be quality of life upgrades and preparations for some of the upcoming anniversaries and holidays. We also have <#> events scheduled this month so keep a look out for those. Is there anything important in <K> framework that the community would like to bring directly to our attention?" goes a long way in cutting through the BS. Stay consistent.
• Another approach can also be overhauling the Leaders section in-game. Attach a "This message has been viewed by Staff/Volunteer" highlight on a post somewhere and make it a policy to respond to Org Leadership within a week. It's always been a very underutilized tool and that should change. Org leaders can and should be your eyes and ears on the ground. Use them! 
• End the practice of announcing projects that haven't left the drawing board. This breeds resentment and disappointment when announced projects get scrapped or whatever happens when deadlines aren't met. Instead, get in the habit of announcing projects that are undergoing finishing touches. If you cannot release it by the end of the month, we don't need to know about it. Even if it's just starting small like "We just completed <#> Class Learning messages and solved the economy crisis." We need consistent follow-through in all official Admin 'reports' to the playerbase.

Imvra said:

Understanding that there are fundamental disagreements in the role of players, admin, and ownership of game assets, and the problems: The Pools have determined that:

1. Guilds are part of Cities and therefore need to be clearly anchored in their parent organization. This is a non-negotiable.
2. Cities are becoming a larger focus of base communal engagement and involvement and are becoming more of a priority.
3. Some guilds veered too far away from their parent cities and their own foundations (from their root lore, root purpose, and spread of membership). This has happened for multiple reasons in multiple places, some healthy, some not.
4. Guilds need to be reintegrated within their parent organizations for consistent identity and mechanical presence.

At the end of the day, there are only two things that matter here:

1. Your (the admin team's) understanding of the game design and ability to manage/create content. The role of players, ownership of game assets, and what have you are entirely what your team decides to make it. You are the literal game designers. Everyone on the team needs to be focused and working on the same vision.
2. Our (the players's) willingness and ability to consume the content. Cheaters and rule-breakers aside, if we're not consuming the content the way you intend then you need to head back to the drawing board and amend the design because somewhere you don't have the right carrots and sticks in play.

Imvra said:

Questions:

• How would you like us to present these problems to you, once we have identified them?
• How do you want us to move past the stages of argument where we simply won't see eye-to-eye? The reality is not everything will be a popularity poll, although they are useful for checking temperature. In the end, the team will need to make a decision and work with it, and some of those will not be popular. They can, and should, however, better consider and acknowledge the playerbase's experience.
• How do you want us to approach situations where we agree with some people but not others, which typically becomes a debate about administrative bias?
• How do you want us to present possible solutions to you?

• Just give it to us straight and preferably with a plan in your back pocket. "We want guilds to follow <A> theme and each guild must belong to <B> city. This makes it so that we can structure <X> mechanic to drive <Y> result."
• If it has reached a point where a debate has reached an impasse then rank needs to be pulled and you need to make a decision as Admin. You also need to explain the reasoning behind your decision and lie in the bed you make. This is a delicate balance but such is the woe of leadership. Also bear in mind if you're wanting input from the players then you need to leave a reasonable amount of time for differing opinions to appear. 1-2 RL weeks for big controversial topics should be sufficient. As tedious as it might be (or maybe just code it in somewhere), you also need frequent reminders in-game for players to actually come check out and engage the forums during these discussions.
• You cannot please everyone and there are always going to be people that cite admin bias. However, good ideas will bubble to the surface if you allow open channels to communicate. Transparency and consistency is key here. Engage with us and explain your reasoning yourselves in an official capacity. This will take care of itself over time. If there's ever a rule change then that needs to be publicly announced and appropriate parties made aware to the best of your ability. A simple game/forum post can be an easy catch-all if need be.
• Same as the first bullet point; just give it to us straight. Be clear and concise. Treat us with respect and like adults. Even when some of us might not deserve it.

All that said, we need to know the function/purpose organizations are expected to fill now. Cities are becoming the central focus now. Great but what are cities expected to do exactly? What purpose does a guild then serve to its home city to further that end? What's the end goal here? These are important questions that need answers because it sounds like what Aetolia fundamentally is is being changed and if we're going to engage the same game then we need to know what that vision you have for us is.

Xenia

Haven said:

Just give it to us straight and preferably with a plan in your back pocket. "We want guilds to follow <A> theme and each guild must belong to <B> city. This makes it so that we can structure <X> mechanic to drive <Y> result."

@Imvra
Can we get a direct answer about this ASAP, it's been unanswered for 2 years but has been a massive change to the dynamics in the game and direction. Obviously there's a method to how the players are supposed to engage, but it's been unclear for an extensive period of time. In addition to answering that question, can you also include how that design allows for a few players to be grandfathered in from the previous game design, and why this won't cause a conflict in the new direction moving forward.

Phoenecia

So. Over a year or two ago when I became Speaker in Duiran, there was a sort of city leaders town hall meeting between all of the current Speakers, Tiur, and Duiran's Celani. The conversation during that meeting revolved around what Duiran's themes were, the kind of environment the city leaders were expected to foster and get citizens to subscribe to, but also discussed expectations of what the Celani would push, and also boundaries.

The entire goal was getting city leaders on the same page as the admin team, and ensuring that there weren't any horrible surprises further down the line like 'oh, you guys have gone way too far off from the direction you're supposed to be on, so we're going to smack you down now'. It gave us reassurance that if we were doing fine, we could just keep doing what we were doing or if there were things that needed to be adjusted, it was done through cooperation.

I kind of feel like these leadership town hall meetings need to happen, again, to get people on the same page. It also gave leaders a means of working together as opposed to undermining each other (let's not kid ourselves, a lot of backstabbing goes on in leadership). When those meetings stopped happening, things started slipping, and people started stumbling around in the dark again.

Yes, I get it that org leaders want to run their orgs their way, but every org fits into a role, and those roles have some boundaries to work within. But there needs to be a dialogue, and above all, it needs to be really frank. Every org has problems that need addressing, but they're not going to get fixed unless there's complete honesty about them.

Imvra

CITY

• Entry level engagement for all encompassed players, where base values and priorities are introduced
  
• Root motivations established here:
  • Duiran: Protect Dendara, ensure the Wilds flourish, and in the long term encourage Sapience and its people to become caretakers and stewards of the Wilds
    
  • Enorian: Protect the people, maintain the values of Light amidst the Midnight Age, and ultimately destroy Darkness and bring about the Age of Dawn
    
  • Bloodloch: Maintain dominance in the Midnight Age, bring the weaker populations to heel, forfeit to the enduring strength of Earth and Blood.
    
  • Spinesreach: Master Shadow and ensure that Ohlsana does not break free, build upon the flaws of the past to perfect society through progress and industry
    
• Key funnel for newcomers to gain their footing in Aetolia and start establishing their own foundations
  
• Primary powers when it comes to global conflict and reward
  

These are enhanced through...

GUILDS

• Secondary level of engagement for players, where niche and speciality are introduced
  
• More personalized community to keep new players and teach them the ropes of their class and archetype
  
• Support the city's motivations and priorities through their own means:
  • Duiran:
    • Shamans are the priests of Dendara, monitoring the health of the Plane of Life and its connection to Prime via the Great Oak
      
    • Sentinels follow the traditions of the Ancestors, addressing the physical needs of the Rhythm and the threats faced in Prime
      
    • Sentaari are the balance between the Rhythm and Sentients who live within it, reaching both those lost in the pockets of fragmented Dendara and the mortal communities in Sapience
      
  • Enorian:
    • llluminai are priests of the Light, fighting for the moral center of hope and purification within Enorian as it faces a corroding world, and maintaining the age-old rites of Light and Spirit. The Illuminai embody faith first and foremost.
      
    • Templar are the shield to protect those that are caught between competing super powers, the final line of defense against shadow. They are paragons, committed to reaching outside of Enorian to defend all who are innocent and helpless; they embody valor first and foremost.
      
    • The Ascendril maintain the balance of the elements within Prime, keeping Shadow held in check while developing a greater understanding of the planes, so that together they can orchestrate the mechanics of the Age of Dawn, preserve the population to live into it, and establish the new order of life without the influence of shadow. They are scholars, committed to questioning the old and bringing about the new; they embody progress first and foremost.
      
  • Bloodloch:
    • Carnifex are the war front and elite guard, brutally culling the weak and maintaining authority in both allied territories (like Vilimo, which links back to the Dominion)
      
    • Dominion seeks to regain the power of Blood when the ritual was first perfected by Yrtez, and their control (or dominion) over all life, perfecting the mind, body, and will at the heart of Bloodloch's power
      
    • Teradrim are priests of Undeath, seeking another kind of immortality and purity of the body, sacrificing the nature of the living for the power of the Earthen Pillars, charged with keeping the Sorcerer Kings of Azvosh imprisoned so that the Earthen Plane does not collide with Prime
      
  • Spinesreach:
    • Syssin are charged with holding vigil against the Shadowbound, and ensuring Ohlsana's influence does not corrupt the population of Spinesreach (and Sapience), their acute perception of mortals and the susceptibility of the mind allowing them to better track the symptoms of those at risk
      
    • Archivists are scientists and researchers established in studying ancient powers and artifacts, and finding ways to apply them to current-day threats, both longstanding and those that lurk unknown, but anticipated, over the horizon
      
    • Sciomancers are mages who monitor the borders of the Shadow Plane and ensure that it does not consume Sapience in the same way that it has broken Dendara and Spirit, wading waist-deep into a treacherous current and seizing the power they find there
      

In this light, guilds (who provide both a base population of a city as well as guards) need to remain rooted within the city they serve. They are not, and never have been intended to be independent mercenary groups aligning with whatever is convenient at the time. That would be cool for other orgs, and maybe another game, but that is not the design of Aetolia (nor IRE).



These nesting priorities, allegiances, and motivations allow us to do many things:

• We can run a wider range of scale and conflict and give an avenue for these larger groups to engage (we simply cannot create and juggle 12 independent hooks in global events, along with the plot in itself, and all of the moving parts that come with it. Even four can be a challenge, but that is a more accessible goal and baseline)
  
• We can showcase different groups in smaller-scale events, and create the potential for internal and external advancement
  

Otherwise we are left trying to juggle something closer to this, which is not a model we can sustain.

The previous change was (incompletely) instated due to several guilds being in conflict with this larger view of the community. There were issues with novices joining and no one in their city being around to help. Some guilds, while insularly healthy, were not working in the interest of their history or purpose, player initiative going too far to the left. Other guilds were in a constant power struggle for personal interest over the health of their own players' enjoyment. A baseline was needed. Initially, there was a hope to strive for a game setup where inter-tether conflict was possible. The current administration recognizes that this is unrealistic, however, the cohesion and identity of cities and their guilds remains no less important, regardless of the conflict axis expanding past the cities in themselves.

Going forward:
Guilds will once more be able to induct people from their allied cities, but with some stipulations.

• A guild must have 75% of its population be citizens of its home city, and hold a minimum of voteweight 1. If they drop below this ratio, they cannot induct a new person from their allied city until they regain that balance.
  
• Members not in the home city will be considered 'envoys'. Envoys cannot contest for GM, outguild, or withdraw gold. This ensures that the guild majority is focused upon that home city, and that city's interests cannot be subsumed.
  

This will allow for some flexibility again but maintain the intention of the initial change: Guilds are part of their home cities and need to prioritize that history, motivation, and community. This balance will be mechanically enforced. GMs will be able to check their ratios.

Our goal is to:

1. Get guilds into a healthier place with their role in lore, city, and world both internally and externally.
   
2. Improve city health, function, and identity. This issue with guild population is one piece of these larger goals.
   
3. Better address these larger umbrella communities in events as they come in the future, and play to your interests and strengths.
   
4. Provide guilds a little more flexibility, as well as reinforce their niche with actionable goals.
   

We would love to have Celani designated to each group, or to different kinds of events that play to their strengths, but that isn't something we can promise right now. We have Celani in training, and those that are experienced are juggling many tasks and projects, as are our coders. I may run some more polls in the future to gauge where you guys think our time is best spent (or at least, some of mine), but we need to be realistic - for you and for us - with what we can get done, and what things really take in terms of energy and motivation currency. I certainly don't want more of my fellow volunteers to burn out, and despite the conflict, we do want this game to thrive. I also want to lessen the disappointment of promises and timelines going astray for you.

Xenia

Thank you @Imvra and the rest of the @admin for laying these changes out for us and for landing on a compromise on the initial changes on guilds/cities. I really appreciate it and it definitely restores some faith in a lot of big things that have been bothering me.

Haven

@Imvra We may have our differences and beliefs but kudos to you and the team for delivering on this.

A suggestion: If you haven't already, it is important that this information is in some form clearly stated in each of the respective HELP files for the organizations. While players are great for helping assimilate newbies and seeing these ideas executed in practice via the developing cultures, new and old players alike need to be able to see this stated explicitly in the HELP files. I think back to my experience as a newbie or any time I make a new character in a faction I know nothing about, one of the first things I do is read the HELP file for understanding the baseline intent and then branching out from there to develop the character if need be.

For example when I look at HELP ILLUMINAI, it comes across more like "Here is some of their history but who they are and what they do remains to be seen cause they're still newly formed." HELP DARU lends to an idea of perfectionism and HELP LUMINARY begins to highlight "profound Faith, Light, and Fire."

HELP TERADRIM has a similar vague description too. It explains that they command the powers of earth and leave wastelands in their wake but not their purpose or what they might necessarily be about. As a player I'd then join and follow whatever culture and interpretations that the guild members give me if at all.

HELP SYSSIN and HELP SENTINEL are great examples of what should be expected of a help file and falls in line with the themes you pointed out above.

Tekias

From what I understand, Imvra is slowly working on HELP (guild)RP files. HELP ASCENDRILRP and HELP SCIOMANCERRP being the first two.

Imvra

I will make sure that this information is readily available in an intuitive place, so that people have a better sense of the different priorities of each organization.

The HELP SCIOMANCERRP, etc, are focused upon the class rather than the guild, to help both organization and multiclassers alike.

Haven

Tekias said:

From what I understand, Imvra is slowly working on HELP (guild)RP files. HELP ASCENDRILRP and HELP SCIOMANCERRP being the first two.

-nod-

Just as a reminder, since I know I can be a bit of a perfectionist and preemptively burn myself out, the updates to each of the HELP files don't need to be extravagant. It can be as simple as adding one line. Like with HELP SENTINEL, there's some fluff throughout but the important piece that clearly defines them and makes it such a great HELP file is this single line:
As a Pride, the Sentinels stand together as one, bound to one another for their common cause. They stand not for good nor evil, not for light nor dark, not for mercy nor cruelty. The Sentinels stand only for the defense of what is still natural in the world, eradicating the stain of undeath from the wilds and anything that threatens the Rhythm.

I kind of wish that was the first line and not the last one but whatevs.

Imvra

Giving some structure to the HELPs of each city, and providing information suitable to character creation and foundations, on my to-do list.

My current priorities regarding HELP files:
- - 1.HELP RP for each class
+^ 2. Updating the structure of each HELP with a consultation from the city leaders
-v 3. Update HELP for each race, to bring them in line with HELP KOBOLD
-- 4. Continue to develop and release more HELP files regarding the RP application of lore (like HELP ELEMENTS)
-- 5. Continue to encourage the use of HELPEDIT while we chip away at the hoarder's rooms of help files

Macavity

Haven said:

@Imvra We may have our differences and beliefs but kudos to you and the team for delivering on this.

A suggestion: If you haven't already, it is important that this information is in some form clearly stated in each of the respective HELP files for the organizations. While players are great for helping assimilate newbies and seeing these ideas executed in practice via the developing cultures, new and old players alike need to be able to see this stated explicitly in the HELP files. I think back to my experience as a newbie or any time I make a new character in a faction I know nothing about, one of the first things I do is read the HELP file for understanding the baseline intent and then branching out from there to develop the character if need be.

For example when I look at HELP ILLUMINAI, it comes across more like "Here is some of their history but who they are and what they do remains to be seen cause they're still newly formed." HELP DARU lends to an idea of perfectionism and HELP LUMINARY begins to highlight "profound Faith, Light, and Fire."

HELP TERADRIM has a similar vague description too. It explains that they command the powers of earth and leave wastelands in their wake but not their purpose or what they might necessarily be about. As a player I'd then join and follow whatever culture and interpretations that the guild members give me if at all.

HELP SYSSIN and HELP SENTINEL are great examples of what should be expected of a help file and falls in line with the themes you pointed out above.

Since you mentioned the Teradrim, that help file does need some work and I have been looking at it, however within the guild itself, we have a number of GHELPs that outline tasks that walk the novices through what we stand for, and the purpose of the guild, ie Pillars and the sorcerer-kings.


@Imvra a HUGE THANK YOU to the outlines you posted above and how it all fits in, along with what each guild is supposed to provide! As a GM this helps me a great deal!

Emir

I just wanna throw out that HELP SCIOMANCERRP is super dope and it has neat things I didn't know I cared about knowing alongside the things I did want to know.

Oonagh

To Segue on Emir, I really love HELP ASCENDRILRP, it made me feel like I -was- doing the right thing with the direction of the guild, and the communication to allow me to check into it and afford my input helped solidify the purpose. Though @Imvra got it spot on, thank you.

Alathesia

I know a lot of the distrust players have on the @admin came out in this thread and I want to take a moment to thank all the @admin for all they do. a special thanks to @Imvra for taking the time to hear our distrust issues and help us with a better understand and meeting us at a common ground. Also @Tiur and @Keroc thank you both for always being always being quick to respond to my many message as I have questions. (Most the time I truly think I drive @Keroc crazy!) Also @Kyna for always being ready to assist when I break Perfumery or need help with something she built. Though we all have issues and concerns, even distrusts in the @admin, I really feel they are helping with making us believe once more when they take the time like this to hear us. So thank you to all the @admin for what you all do.

Jhin

I enjoy this discussion, perhaps we can get rid of the city / guild restrictions and simply tie sanctions into the equation. If you're a member of the home city then you're automatically sanctioned, that way if people love a certain class then you receive additional benefits of joining the home city.

Rasani

Zynti said:

I enjoy this discussion, perhaps we can get rid of the city / guild restrictions and simply tie sanctions into the equation. If you're a member of the home city then you're automatically sanctioned, that way if people love a certain class then you receive additional benefits of joining the home city.

That doesn't resolve the core issue of admin wanting guilds to be rooted in their home city. I think a cross-city program (that we get to rp around!) is more than enough resolution for this.

Aloli

Imvra said:

Duiran: Protect Dendara, ensure the Wilds flourish, and in the long term encourage Sapience and its people to become caretakers and stewards of the Wilds

Sentaari are the balance between the Rhythm and Sentients who live within it, reaching both those lost in the pockets of fragmented Dendara and the mortal communities in Sapience.

I love the compromise you've come up with for the guilds recruitment dilemma and the limitations you're imposing on the city-less guild members too. It's an excellent middle ground and feels like it's protecting the guild culture on many fronts.

Also, you've given each organization a beautiful mission statement that ties it to its city, and the involves it in world affairs well.

That being said, I want to zoom in on a specific thing, and I'm fine taking this discussion elsewhere if needed. However, I need clarification on the statements I'm quoting here for Duiran and Sentaari as I am left feeling they are vague enough and quite frankly broad sufficient to be confusing, to me. If I were a newbie or perhaps a seasoned Aetolian player who knew very little about both organizations or only know the old-time views of them I'd be disinterested and would not be pursuing a life in them if I wanted some action.

They read in such a way that removes Duiran and the Sentaari from some practical applications as well as paint a pacifist picture that's removed from the raw and ferocious nature we've been trying to aim for (with some flavored tribal civility, of course.) We're not trying to husband crops or animals or go around telling people to become gardeners or caretakers of wild on such a large scale as this is and should be only one facet of Duiran.

For the Sentaari, you're saying we balance between the Rhythm and Sentients who live within it; this reaches almost everyone in the game who is not undead, including trapped NPC souls lost beyond Dendara in the locked pocket planes/dimensions. Great to aim for as a long term goal, but it spreads the Sentaari so thin that a day to day life is challenging to put in simple RP guidelines for these HELP *RP files. It's also not the only thing that defines the Sentaari right now; they are multidimensional: warrior monks, scholar monks, anti-combat/peaceful monks, scribes, researchers, brewers, and so on, at the core of this, is the strict training that makes them all Sentaari and Monks. However, for your vision to be achieved, there would have to be some RP to connect us on this large scale with the realm this way. We'd also need to give a more refined definition to kai, and it's uniqueness in terms of generating it off of the elements' constant friction and how it influences reality (space/time) through a monk, et cetera. That's not to forget their connection to the other monks who settled in the Grand Library and the Sentaari's desires to develop a protective relationship of them.

The other hand I feel is not being mentioned is that while having such a broad view is excellent, the more narrow perspective is lost. The reason for the Sentaari to be in Duiran is now, and that was not in the past, they're helping protect Dendara, they're bringing balance and civility by being an example and leading with it, they're very much changed and redefined to have adopted Slyphe's ways and be much more cerebral than they used to be. For example, seeking enlightenment, doing research with/on kai, validating whatever knowledge comes to them, and so on, like you said, but they also have other angles like Grolet/Santi/Asura, they're fighters and wish to train those who want to learn how to fight, they're probably the most prominent advocates against using weapons because 'your body is your greatest weapon', there's so much more!

In the end, I'd rather see a slightly narrow perspective and purpose with fun flavor while such a lovely grand plan is in the background, such as their position with balancing the rhythm or cycle.

Tiur

The sentences weren't meant to be every possible option, they're short blurbs. I'm not sure we can encompass ANY guild in 15 words or less and be 100% accurate, it's just a post trying to help get the general idea across.

Imvra

You are welcome to find a time to discuss the nuances and depth of the Sentaari in another venue, thread, or in game. I cannot apologize for the general overview of this post, its purpose being to give the top-down view of all organizations rather than the intricacies and vibrancy of each individual one.

Aloli

That's fine, thank you both!

Arbre

Imvra said:

Going forward:
Guilds will once more be able to induct people from their allied cities, but with some stipulations.

• A guild must have 75% of its population be citizens of its home city, and hold a minimum of voteweight 1. If they drop below this ratio, they cannot induct a new person from their allied city until they regain that balance.
  
• Members not in the home city will be considered 'envoys'. Envoys cannot contest for GM, outguild, or withdraw gold. This ensures that the guild majority is focused upon that home city, and that city's interests cannot be subsumed.
  

This will allow for some flexibility again but maintain the intention of the initial change: Guilds are part of their home cities and need to prioritize that history, motivation, and community. This balance will be mechanically enforced. GMs will be able to check their ratios.

@Imvra @Tiur When is this going to be announced / implemented?

Rijetta

Tiur said:

The sentences weren't meant to be every possible option, they're short blurbs. I'm not sure we can encompass ANY guild in 15 words or less and be 100% accurate, it's just a post trying to help get the general idea across.

Carnifex: "The Best Guild." 3 words. You're welcome.

To wit, the diagrams and explanation from Imvra are, perhaps, one of the most concise yet complex communications I've seen within Aetolia to date. Thanks for the update. And thanks for making the envoy system.

Tiur

Arbre said:

Imvra said:

Going forward:
Guilds will once more be able to induct people from their allied cities, but with some stipulations.

• A guild must have 75% of its population be citizens of its home city, and hold a minimum of voteweight 1. If they drop below this ratio, they cannot induct a new person from their allied city until they regain that balance.
  
• Members not in the home city will be considered 'envoys'. Envoys cannot contest for GM, outguild, or withdraw gold. This ensures that the guild majority is focused upon that home city, and that city's interests cannot be subsumed.
  

This will allow for some flexibility again but maintain the intention of the initial change: Guilds are part of their home cities and need to prioritize that history, motivation, and community. This balance will be mechanically enforced. GMs will be able to check their ratios.

@Imvra @Tiur When is this going to be announced / implemented?

Imvra's plan here has moved in importance, I'm working to implement it today.

Evalyne

I liked the city/guild tether change. I didn't at first, I was pretty concerned by it, but particularly in the Templar, it fit the rp. Templar are tied to Enorian and it's values, so if a player doesn't agree with Eno's values, why would they want to be a Templar?

Why indeed. And people wonder why I stopped playing Miki actively.

The more you try to force conformity to one given canonical roleplay, the more you, in turn, force those trying something outside of the normative out of the game, and ultimately, to other games that better fit the story they're trying to tell. It's no secret I'm mostly in Imperian these days.