Guids and Cities?

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  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26
    How would you like us to present these problems to you, once we have identified them?
    - Just laying out the problem in the first place. When the guilds were changed we were told this: from on high we were told to shake things up or else. So we did this. There was no explanation as to what the issue being addressed was, just a looming threat and reaction. To this day I still don't understand what the purpose of the change was or whether it ever achieved the desired goal.

    How do you want us to move past the stages of argument where we simply won't see eye-to-eye? The reality is not everything will be a popularity poll, although they are useful for checking temperature. In the end, the team will need to make a decision and work with it, and some of those will not be popular. They can, and should, however, better consider and acknowledge the playerbase's experience.
    - To be clear, the anger about this isn't about the decision to force guild/city and instead taking 2 years to let a few people hang out in limbo and then announce them as grandfathered in. Why only partially implement the system and punish the players that complied? All I'm learning here is keep doing what I want when I don't see eye to eye and ignore calls made and force them to implement it. How to fix it, stick to what you say you're going to do or undo it. Don't start changing the rules midgame and penalize the players who attempt to adhere by them. Edit: To expand on this, as it's very much the root of my anger from the proxy war. A lot of the decision making was ad-hoc but was changing the rules in the middle of the game. It felt like punishing the players involved because suddenly rules were changing and calls were being made midway. Yes rules to games change and evolve, but follow through and do them while also respecting how it's going to impact the moment of the game. Point and case, changing rules midway an event is poor timing, it cheapens the whole experience to a point in which it has negative value.

    How do you want us to approach situations where we agree with some people but not others, which typically becomes a debate about administrative bias?
    -See the anwer to the quesiton above.
    How do you want us to present possible solutions to you?
    -Present the solutions with a clear explanation on how far along the decision process decision makers are on, as well as a realistic time line on how far out those implementations really are. Example: This is something we're thinking about addressing, we are giving ourselves X number of months to come up with a solution and Y number of months to construct it. Don't expect to see anything from this discussion for Z amount of time. Give a measurement to exactly how much player voices are influencing the decision making process. Something more than, 'we care about what you think.' Instead I wold prefer to hear something like, '10% of our decision making process will involve taking what you all say and influencing our final choice.'

    ImvraHaven
  • AlathesiaAlathesia Member Posts: 45 ✭✭✭
    edited June 26
    Rasani said:


    Frankly, I think the best way to embody this "city and guilds entwined" issue would be for every city to have a system like Duiran does: one city leader from each guild. It makes the whole city tied guilds thing make sense and, in theory, prevents this concern about a whole guild being displeased by a city.

    I agree with this, specially for Bloodloch because at the present moment only guaranteed seat in leadership is the Dominion and that I feel is unfair.
    Imvra said:


    The Pools have determined that:

    1. Guilds are part of Cities and therefore need to be clearly anchored in their parent organization. This is a non-negotiable.
    2. Cities are becoming a larger focus of base communal engagement and involvement and are becoming more of a priority.
    3. Some guilds veered too far away from their parent cities and their own foundations (from their root lore, root purpose, and spread of membership). This has happened for multiple reasons in multiple places, some healthy, some not.
    4. Guilds need to be reintegrated within their parent organizations for consistent identity and mechanical presence.
    This I also agree with. Guilds were made to be part of the city, to make up it's whole. As explained to me during the city/guild tether Carnifex were made to be the defenders of Bloodloch, that is their role.

    As for the future I really think the majority of us want follow through as I have mentioned before. We all understand changes are going to be made that we wont like or agree with, at least I hope we are all adult enough to know these things will happen. But a better explanation of -why- would be helpful. Why do you feel this is needed? How do you think this is going to make the game a better experience for us. While we still might not agree on it, at least we will have an understanding of why is it is being done. When we had the Townhall about the city/guild tether it was pretty much just said this is what is going to be done deal with it. There was no explanation really of how this is supposed to effect us in a positive way. And by the way it has been a much needed positive change for Bloodloch. The city was so quiet, dead, for so long. This change helped waken up the city. So I can see the positive change but others may not, specially those who were not in Bloodloch before and after the change.
    Imvra
  • MacavityMacavity Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭
    Imvra said:



    Questions:

    • How would you like us to present these problems to you, once we have identified them?
    I think a meeting with the leader or leadership team of the player base would be great. I think everyone that is in charge of a guild, city, or order wants the group to generally be successful and grow with new and exciting things. Just given a chance to be part of something and build it with the pools feeling like our concerns and thoughts are being heard and taken into consideration.
    Imvra said:


    How do you want us to move past the stages of argument where we simply won't see eye-to-eye? The reality is not everything will be a popularity poll, although they are useful for checking temperature. In the end, the team will need to make a decision and work with it, and some of those will not be popular. They can, and should, however, better consider and acknowledge the playerbase's experience.
    There is always going to be times where we do not see eye to eye on things, but if we can be given some information as to why and even the thought process behind, and where it will lead to, this would help to allow us to understand what is being considered and even help us to prep a little on RP for changes that are to come.
    Imvra said:


    How do you want us to approach situations where we agree with some people but not others, which typically becomes a debate about administrative bias?
    Truthful, honest discussion on what the decision is and why. As for administrative bias, I feel this myself, and I think having the Gods wake or interact if they are Patron of a guild or city would help in this case. I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw Ivoln, at least a message or something to let us know that we are not on our own would be great. I am not sure about other GMs, but I have a few orgreq's in that have not been touched from what I can see, and I am eager to work on them. I understand there is a limited number in the pools but if you create a system to allow us to interact with the pools then it needs to be looked at and worked. If that makes sense for lack of better wording...
    Imvra said:


    How do you want us to present possible solutions to you?
    This could be done in fun ways like with NPCs, Gods, or other ways to either present to us the choices and then allow us to decide or push us in a direction you want us to go, but at least allow us to see other options, so we do not feel like it was the only solution that was thought of. Like if we choose the wrong choice, have something fail and cause us to go back a step and choose again. If all else fails give us the information in a townhall or some other means.



    The end result is we all want to do better and make it an enjoyable game for all. Its obvious that we care a lot about this game or we would not spend so much time on the forums expressing our thoughts and opinions.
    “Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
    Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” 
    ― Dr. Seuss, The Lorax

    Veritas says, "Sorry for breaking your system Macavity."
    Veritas says, "My boss fights crash Macavity's computer now."
    ImvraAlathesia
  • ZhukovZhukov Member Posts: 12
    I think the city was a good thing overall, some guilds had far too many of their members outside their resident cities. Could have been handled differently though as it did kill some guilds. Looked like it was an attempt to get ready for city conflict that never happened.
    Alathesia
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Multiple times it's been asked why this decision was made, what the desired outcome was and if it was met. Never once has this been answered, it's continuously skirted around. How can there be any moving forward or pushing the cart out when there's a complete refusal to explain the decision and its plans. If there's no information, then say that, or if there was, why not be transparent about it?

    I mean yeah, you can keep pushing the cart out of the ditch, but by my count it's been pushed into the ditch a few times, I've been party to pushing it out of the ditch a few times, now I'm just left wondering what the driver's been drinking in order to understand what kind of ride I'm on.

    IazamatZaila
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,073 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Haven said:

    Just give it to us straight and preferably with a plan in your back pocket. "We want guilds to follow <A> theme and each guild must belong to <B> city. This makes it so that we can structure <X> mechanic to drive <Y> result."
    @Imvra
    Can we get a direct answer about this ASAP, it's been unanswered for 2 years but has been a massive change to the dynamics in the game and direction. Obviously there's a method to how the players are supposed to engage, but it's been unclear for an extensive period of time. In addition to answering that question, can you also include how that design allows for a few players to be grandfathered in from the previous game design, and why this won't cause a conflict in the new direction moving forward.

    Alathesia
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in AtticaMember Posts: 612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So. Over a year or two ago when I became Speaker in Duiran, there was a sort of city leaders town hall meeting between all of the current Speakers, Tiur, and Duiran's Celani. The conversation during that meeting revolved around what Duiran's themes were, the kind of environment the city leaders were expected to foster and get citizens to subscribe to, but also discussed expectations of what the Celani would push, and also boundaries.

    The entire goal was getting city leaders on the same page as the admin team, and ensuring that there weren't any horrible surprises further down the line like 'oh, you guys have gone way too far off from the direction you're supposed to be on, so we're going to smack you down now'. It gave us reassurance that if we were doing fine, we could just keep doing what we were doing or if there were things that needed to be adjusted, it was done through cooperation.

    I kind of feel like these leadership town hall meetings need to happen, again, to get people on the same page. It also gave leaders a means of working together as opposed to undermining each other (let's not kid ourselves, a lot of backstabbing goes on in leadership). When those meetings stopped happening, things started slipping, and people started stumbling around in the dark again.

    Yes, I get it that org leaders want to run their orgs their way, but every org fits into a role, and those roles have some boundaries to work within. But there needs to be a dialogue, and above all, it needs to be really frank. Every org has problems that need addressing, but they're not going to get fixed unless there's complete honesty about them.
    HavenNava
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Imvra We may have our differences and beliefs but kudos to you and the team for delivering on this.

    A suggestion: If you haven't already, it is important that this information is in some form clearly stated in each of the respective HELP files for the organizations. While players are great for helping assimilate newbies and seeing these ideas executed in practice via the developing cultures, new and old players alike need to be able to see this stated explicitly in the HELP files. I think back to my experience as a newbie or any time I make a new character in a faction I know nothing about, one of the first things I do is read the HELP file for understanding the baseline intent and then branching out from there to develop the character if need be.

    For example when I look at HELP ILLUMINAI, it comes across more like "Here is some of their history but who they are and what they do remains to be seen cause they're still newly formed." HELP DARU lends to an idea of perfectionism and HELP LUMINARY begins to highlight "profound Faith, Light, and Fire."

    HELP TERADRIM has a similar vague description too. It explains that they command the powers of earth and leave wastelands in their wake but not their purpose or what they might necessarily be about. As a player I'd then join and follow whatever culture and interpretations that the guild members give me if at all.

    HELP SYSSIN and HELP SENTINEL are great examples of what should be expected of a help file and falls in line with the themes you pointed out above.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Imvra
  • TekiasTekias WisconsinMember Posts: 324 ✭✭✭
    From what I understand, Imvra is slowly working on HELP (guild)RP files. HELP ASCENDRILRP and HELP SCIOMANCERRP being the first two.
    Formerly: Spiegel. Eidycue.

    Hi.

    image
  • ImvraImvra Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 97 Immortal
    I will make sure that this information is readily available in an intuitive place, so that people have a better sense of the different priorities of each organization.

    The HELP SCIOMANCERRP, etc, are focused upon the class rather than the guild, to help both organization and multiclassers alike.
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight SchoolMember Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tekias said:

    From what I understand, Imvra is slowly working on HELP (guild)RP files. HELP ASCENDRILRP and HELP SCIOMANCERRP being the first two.

    -nod-

    Just as a reminder, since I know I can be a bit of a perfectionist and preemptively burn myself out, the updates to each of the HELP files don't need to be extravagant. It can be as simple as adding one line. Like with HELP SENTINEL, there's some fluff throughout but the important piece that clearly defines them and makes it such a great HELP file is this single line:
    As a Pride, the Sentinels stand together as one, bound to one another for their common cause. They stand not for good nor evil, not for light nor dark, not for mercy nor cruelty. The Sentinels stand only for the defense of what is still natural in the world, eradicating the stain of undeath from the wilds and anything that threatens the Rhythm.

    I kind of wish that was the first line and not the last one but whatevs.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Teani
  • ImvraImvra Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 97 Immortal
    Giving some structure to the HELPs of each city, and providing information suitable to character creation and foundations, on my to-do list.

    My current priorities regarding HELP files:
    - - 1.HELP RP for each class
    +^ 2. Updating the structure of each HELP with a consultation from the city leaders
    -v 3. Update HELP for each race, to bring them in line with HELP KOBOLD
    -- 4. Continue to develop and release more HELP files regarding the RP application of lore (like HELP ELEMENTS)
    -- 5. Continue to encourage the use of HELPEDIT while we chip away at the hoarder's rooms of help files


  • MacavityMacavity Member Posts: 789 ✭✭✭
    edited June 28
    Haven said:

    @Imvra We may have our differences and beliefs but kudos to you and the team for delivering on this.

    A suggestion: If you haven't already, it is important that this information is in some form clearly stated in each of the respective HELP files for the organizations. While players are great for helping assimilate newbies and seeing these ideas executed in practice via the developing cultures, new and old players alike need to be able to see this stated explicitly in the HELP files. I think back to my experience as a newbie or any time I make a new character in a faction I know nothing about, one of the first things I do is read the HELP file for understanding the baseline intent and then branching out from there to develop the character if need be.

    For example when I look at HELP ILLUMINAI, it comes across more like "Here is some of their history but who they are and what they do remains to be seen cause they're still newly formed." HELP DARU lends to an idea of perfectionism and HELP LUMINARY begins to highlight "profound Faith, Light, and Fire."

    HELP TERADRIM has a similar vague description too. It explains that they command the powers of earth and leave wastelands in their wake but not their purpose or what they might necessarily be about. As a player I'd then join and follow whatever culture and interpretations that the guild members give me if at all.

    HELP SYSSIN and HELP SENTINEL are great examples of what should be expected of a help file and falls in line with the themes you pointed out above.

    Since you mentioned the Teradrim, that help file does need some work and I have been looking at it, however within the guild itself, we have a number of GHELPs that outline tasks that walk the novices through what we stand for, and the purpose of the guild, ie Pillars and the sorcerer-kings.


    @Imvra a HUGE THANK YOU to the outlines you posted above and how it all fits in, along with what each guild is supposed to provide! As a GM this helps me a great deal!
    “Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot,
    Nothing is going to get better. It's not.” 
    ― Dr. Seuss, The Lorax

    Veritas says, "Sorry for breaking your system Macavity."
    Veritas says, "My boss fights crash Macavity's computer now."
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    I just wanna throw out that HELP SCIOMANCERRP is super dope and it has neat things I didn't know I cared about knowing alongside the things I did want to know.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    MacavityOonagh
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 212 ✭✭✭
    To Segue on Emir, I really love HELP ASCENDRILRP, it made me feel like I -was- doing the right thing with the direction of the guild, and the communication to allow me to check into it and afford my input helped solidify the purpose. Though @Imvra got it spot on, thank you.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • AlathesiaAlathesia Member Posts: 45 ✭✭✭
    I know a lot of the distrust players have on the @admin came out in this thread and I want to take a moment to thank all the @admin for all they do. a special thanks to @Imvra for taking the time to hear our distrust issues and help us with a better understand and meeting us at a common ground. Also @Tiur and @Keroc thank you both for always being always being quick to respond to my many message as I have questions. (Most the time I truly think I drive @Keroc crazy!) Also @Kyna for always being ready to assist when I break Perfumery or need help with something she built. Though we all have issues and concerns, even distrusts in the @admin, I really feel they are helping with making us believe once more when they take the time like this to hear us. So thank you to all the @admin for what you all do.
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 8
    edited June 29
    I enjoy this discussion, perhaps we can get rid of the city / guild restrictions and simply tie sanctions into the equation. If you're a member of the home city then you're automatically sanctioned, that way if people love a certain class then you receive additional benefits of joining the home city.
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭
    Zynti said:

    I enjoy this discussion, perhaps we can get rid of the city / guild restrictions and simply tie sanctions into the equation. If you're a member of the home city then you're automatically sanctioned, that way if people love a certain class then you receive additional benefits of joining the home city.

    That doesn't resolve the core issue of admin wanting guilds to be rooted in their home city. I think a cross-city program (that we get to rp around!) is more than enough resolution for this.
  • AloliAloli Member Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    Imvra said:


    Duiran: Protect Dendara, ensure the Wilds flourish, and in the long term encourage Sapience and its people to become caretakers and stewards of the Wilds

    Sentaari are the balance between the Rhythm and Sentients who live within it, reaching both those lost in the pockets of fragmented Dendara and the mortal communities in Sapience.

    I love the compromise you've come up with for the guilds recruitment dilemma and the limitations you're imposing on the city-less guild members too. It's an excellent middle ground and feels like it's protecting the guild culture on many fronts.

    Also, you've given each organization a beautiful mission statement that ties it to its city, and the involves it in world affairs well.

    That being said, I want to zoom in on a specific thing, and I'm fine taking this discussion elsewhere if needed. However, I need clarification on the statements I'm quoting here for Duiran and Sentaari as I am left feeling they are vague enough and quite frankly broad sufficient to be confusing, to me. If I were a newbie or perhaps a seasoned Aetolian player who knew very little about both organizations or only know the old-time views of them I'd be disinterested and would not be pursuing a life in them if I wanted some action.

    They read in such a way that removes Duiran and the Sentaari from some practical applications as well as paint a pacifist picture that's removed from the raw and ferocious nature we've been trying to aim for (with some flavored tribal civility, of course.) We're not trying to husband crops or animals or go around telling people to become gardeners or caretakers of wild on such a large scale as this is and should be only one facet of Duiran.

    For the Sentaari, you're saying we balance between the Rhythm and Sentients who live within it; this reaches almost everyone in the game who is not undead, including trapped NPC souls lost beyond Dendara in the locked pocket planes/dimensions. Great to aim for as a long term goal, but it spreads the Sentaari so thin that a day to day life is challenging to put in simple RP guidelines for these HELP *RP files. It's also not the only thing that defines the Sentaari right now; they are multidimensional: warrior monks, scholar monks, anti-combat/peaceful monks, scribes, researchers, brewers, and so on, at the core of this, is the strict training that makes them all Sentaari and Monks. However, for your vision to be achieved, there would have to be some RP to connect us on this large scale with the realm this way. We'd also need to give a more refined definition to kai, and it's uniqueness in terms of generating it off of the elements' constant friction and how it influences reality (space/time) through a monk, et cetera. That's not to forget their connection to the other monks who settled in the Grand Library and the Sentaari's desires to develop a protective relationship of them.

    The other hand I feel is not being mentioned is that while having such a broad view is excellent, the more narrow perspective is lost. The reason for the Sentaari to be in Duiran is now, and that was not in the past, they're helping protect Dendara, they're bringing balance and civility by being an example and leading with it, they're very much changed and redefined to have adopted Slyphe's ways and be much more cerebral than they used to be. For example, seeking enlightenment, doing research with/on kai, validating whatever knowledge comes to them, and so on, like you said, but they also have other angles like Grolet/Santi/Asura, they're fighters and wish to train those who want to learn how to fight, they're probably the most prominent advocates against using weapons because 'your body is your greatest weapon', there's so much more!

    In the end, I'd rather see a slightly narrow perspective and purpose with fun flavor while such a lovely grand plan is in the background, such as their position with balancing the rhythm or cycle.
  • TiurTiur Producer Member, Administrator, Immortal Posts: 674 admin
    The sentences weren't meant to be every possible option, they're short blurbs. I'm not sure we can encompass ANY guild in 15 words or less and be 100% accurate, it's just a post trying to help get the general idea across.
    Aloli
  • ImvraImvra Member, Moderator, Immortal Posts: 97 Immortal
    You are welcome to find a time to discuss the nuances and depth of the Sentaari in another venue, thread, or in game. I cannot apologize for the general overview of this post, its purpose being to give the top-down view of all organizations rather than the intricacies and vibrancy of each individual one.
    Aloli
  • AloliAloli Member Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    That's fine, thank you both!
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie Member, Guildmaster Posts: 2,065 mod
    Imvra said:


    Going forward:
    Guilds will once more be able to induct people from their allied cities, but with some stipulations.

    • A guild must have 75% of its population be citizens of its home city, and hold a minimum of voteweight 1. If they drop below this ratio, they cannot induct a new person from their allied city until they regain that balance.
    • Members not in the home city will be considered 'envoys'. Envoys cannot contest for GM, outguild, or withdraw gold. This ensures that the guild majority is focused upon that home city, and that city's interests cannot be subsumed.
    This will allow for some flexibility again but maintain the intention of the initial change: Guilds are part of their home cities and need to prioritize that history, motivation, and community. This balance will be mechanically enforced. GMs will be able to check their ratios.
    @Imvra @Tiur When is this going to be announced / implemented?
    KanivaraZailaNavaRijetta
  • RijettaRijetta Nowhere ImportantMember Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    Tiur said:

    The sentences weren't meant to be every possible option, they're short blurbs. I'm not sure we can encompass ANY guild in 15 words or less and be 100% accurate, it's just a post trying to help get the general idea across.

    Carnifex: "The Best Guild." 3 words. You're welcome.

    To wit, the diagrams and explanation from Imvra are, perhaps, one of the most concise yet complex communications I've seen within Aetolia to date. Thanks for the update. And thanks for making the envoy system.
    A low, sultry voice resounds within the depths of your mind, "I look forward to seeing your descent."
    NavaXeniaHaven
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