Zealot

ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
edited June 4 in Sparring Grounds
Okay....so this discussion is likely to get heated - no pun intended! :smiley:

But on a serious note, the recent heavy nerf of Psi Tether brings about reason to open this discussion about the problems and needs for the zealot class.

First and foremost, Zealot is probably the most easiest hindered class, you break a limb it slows me down, you afflict with any hindrance all combat stops. There's no passives, and breaks are slow. A group of teradrim golems could break limbs quicker then a Zealot.

So below I'm going to list the skills that have problems and are currently pretty useless and/or not useful enough.

Disclaimer: The classes I mention below is from personal combat experience, not to bash one class or the other.

Disable: It's unclear what can be disabled and what cannot. It's a fantastic skill to use in combat because it's currently Zealot only potential hindering technique outside of breaks. I've disabled blackout - useful, cripple - useful, luminary dazzle - useful, even archivist madness - useful. But...if I can disable all of the above skills, why can't I disable suggest for Syssin? Is madness as important to archivist as suggest to syssin? Or even kai cripple as important to monk as it is to Syssin. That's just one example -I haven't had the chance to test every class, but from what I've noticed not being able to disable some key not core skills to slow down opponents hurts Zealot. Doublestab no - suggest yes.

Also disable is preventable if you keep clarity up.

Proposed Solution: Open suggest and/or weaving to being disabled. Also the ability for disable to work against passive mobs. Slowing or stopping them during the duration of disable.

Quick disclaimer: None of the above disables are OP, because I've lost against each of these classes even with disabling, so claiming it's OP without using the class is a moot point.

Rebuke: This is one of the only chances of Zealot being able to protect limbs. Fend is just like parry, but can be broken passively with stun from Teradrim - which opens Zealot up to everything, not to mention that Rebuke doesn't stay as a defense if you use your chains. This is a problem because Zealot are forced to choose between slow paced breaks or defense. And most classes don't have to choose between defense or attack like Zealot do. Because every curing skill is active and penalizes your attributes, so furthering stopping offense like Swagger. I can swagger 5 times till have I to run, but, with the new introduction of Psi Tether nerfs, now - I may have to run away not being able to attack because I tried to prevent you from giving me paralysis.

Proposed Solution: Allow rebuke to stay up and not drop when using hackles. Just put it on cooldown to reset. And if it has to last for a certain amount of time after reset before the hackles fall to rest or something that works too. Zealot are proposed with more penalties to offense then any other class. I.E "Do you want to stay alive? Then don't attack."

Heelrush: Allow Heelrush is one of the strongest breaking methods for Zealot, but it's hindered by using hackles. This is one of the only skills that actually can get breaks efficiently. Slow but high damage.

Proposed Solution: Allow heelrush to be done in tandem with hackles. Maybe not zenith, but at least hackles.

Palmforce Strike: Remove same limitations above allow to be used with hackles and Zenith, without being broken.

Direblow Remove same limitations as Palmforce Strike. Doesn't stop deepwound when using hackles and zenith. Deepwound addressed below w/ Rive.

Pendulum: Pendulum is a great skill, but the biggest problem is it shifts all limb damage, so an opponent can accidentally cure limb damage even after pendulum, which makes it only usable in early fights - but the problem is using it early, the opponent doesn't have enough limb pressure to make it worth the EQ cost. Hence slowing down combat.

Proposed Solution: Change pendulum to be able to direct which limb the damage will shift too, without changing other breaks. Also, give pendulum the opportunity to shift to head or torso perhaps, but 50% of the damage on head or torso.

Welt: Welts currently aren't working correctly. Only one hackles hit is counting for limb damage, the help file says Welt stays as long as that limb keeps getting hit - but hackles only damages once, I think this is a bug and should be looked at.

Rive: Way too weak to be useful. Could be another kill route with deepwound, but rive is way too weak to be useful. 65 Bleeding every 6.5 seconds when Rive is used is too slow. Perhaps Rive and deepwound could work different, where if they have it, each Rive compounds after the other.

Psi Tether Damage on Psi Tether should not be an issue - Zealot putting pressure on opponents should be apart of the combat. Not sure why damage was nerfed so heavily. Furthermore Zealot induced tether breaks to cause unconsciousness was annoying for opponents, but didn't create an advantage, because I couldn't get an attack off before they woke up anyway. Outside of another tether, so...it actually doesn't give any advantage because, your restoration is catching you up. It only hurts if you fall wayyyy behind. So unconsciousness is annoying, but not changing the results of the fight. The 4 second uncon did not allow me to get an attack in outside of a new tether, plus your restoration doesn't stop during uncon.

Proposed Solution: Increasing Zealot induced to 2.5 seconds instead of 4. Keeping opponent induced at 3.5 but put damage back to normal.

Suncloak: Why have this drop? All it does is makes look me not possible.

Proposed Solution: Permanent defense for fun RP purposes.

Exudation: Exudation the time it takes to absorb / cure afflictions from your opponent to later wield the orb and throw it at them. 3 seconds for 1 hidden aff, is not worth it. Curing an opponent to later use 3 seconds to give them one hidden aff.

Proposed Solution: A really cool solution would be make this passive. Kind of like how Teradrim can break parry passively and break legs and cause extreme bruising torso head damage etc. And btw out limb damage a zealot. Perhaps! Exudation can work on a cooldown and when afflictions hit the Zealot - give us the ability to exudate ourselves into an orb with multiple afflictions that will then slowly afflict your opponent passively. This could be done by exudating ourselves or infusing the cinderkin with the orb, and have the cinderkin have a chance at giving those afflictions. Also I suggest orb getting a different syntax because I have a lot of orbs in my inventory.

Conclusion: I doubt all of these can be implemented but throwing out a few of the problems and solutions above so we can come to a better build for Zealot. As an authority on the subject I wanted to give me two cents, I think opinions from people that actually use the class are most valuable - because of the firsthand experience. Not to count out people that want to see the class nerfed etc, but as a new class I suggest the peanut gallery reserve comments and vehement opinions until they know what they're talking about. Thanks.

Z OUT.

Disclaimer: I don't have all the answers, so if you have a suggestion, feel free to add it!
Xenia
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Comments

  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4
    Disable:

    You can't disable suggest because yes, it is /vital/ to their offense. Kai Cripple and Madness are gated by cooldowns or Kai and are meant to be used opportunistically rather than spammed, hence the gates, hence why you can disable them.

    Edited to add: Pro-tip, you can disable parry.

    Rebuke:

    First off want to say that you're wrong about sacrificing offense vs. defense. A lot of other classes have to choose between offense and defense. Prae go 2h and lose audit, Templar choose offense vs. defensive auras, etc.

    Secondly, fend is literally parry. Stun from golem bypasses parry too. Stun from everything bypasses parry. Rebuke is a double parry usable every 8s. You have a defensive /advantage/ here, not a disadvantage.

    Pendulum:

    Pretty sure you're using that wrong if you're shifting limb damage into a limb they are curing? Which is what I think you're saying?

    Psi Tether:

    Psi Tether is still usable for it's intended purposes. The 4s uncon was absurd and very broken in team combat. 4s uncon is absurd and very broken in 1v1. All of this on demand, too.

    There's more but this is all I care to elaborate on at the moment.

    I just want to end with: The majority of Aetolia top tier believe Zealot is already ridiculously overpowered fine. Buffs are going to be fought tooth and nail. We already lose our collective minds when @Keroc introduces unasked for buffs.
    Post edited by Emir on
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatRhyotOonagh
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Wow I actually didn't read the last part of your post. Holy flame bait batman.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
  • IazamatIazamat Member Posts: 126 ✭✭✭
    edited June 4
    Zynti said:


    Conclusion: I doubt all of these can be implemented but throwing out a few of the problems and solutions above so we can come to a better build for Zealot. As an authority on the subject I wanted to give me two cents, I think opinions from people that actually use the class are most valuable - because of the firsthand experience. Not to count out people that want to see the class nerfed etc, but as a new class I suggest the peanut gallery reserve comments and vehement opinions until they know what they're talking about. Thanks.

    We fought for a couple minutes in Purgatory last night. I literally kept hitting parry (fend) the entire fight due to lacking the trigger line (I'd not fought a Zealot yet), meaning I was doing literally nothing to you. Regardless, you kept using Psi Tether to reset the fight? And you were otherwise making absolutely zero progress against me. I don't think your perceived issues with Zealot are a failing of the class, to be completely honest.

    Edit: And I feel it's pertinent to point out that I do not currently have a Zealot cureset.
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
    Emir said:

    Disable:

    You can't disable suggest because yes, it is /vital/ to their offense. Kai Cripple and Madness are gated by cooldowns or Kai and are meant to be used opportunistically rather than spammed, hence the gates, hence why you can disable them.

    Edited to add: Pro-tip, you can disable parry.

    Rebuke:

    First off want to say that you're wrong about sacrificing offense vs. defense. A lot of other classes have to choose between offense and defense. Prae go 2h and lose audit, Templar choose offense vs. defensive auras, etc.

    Secondly, fend is literally parry. Stun from golem bypasses parry too. Stun from everything bypasses parry. Rebuke is a double parry usable every 8s. You have a defensive /advantage/ here, not a disadvantage.

    Pendulum:

    Pretty sure you're using that wrong if you're shifting limb damage into a limb they are curing? Which is what I think you're saying?

    Psi Tether:

    Psi Tether is still usable for it's intended purposes. The 4s uncon was absurd and very broken in team combat. 4s uncon is absurd and very broken in 1v1. All of this on demand, too.

    There's more but this is all I care to elaborate on at the moment.

    I just want to end with: The majority of Aetolia top tier believe Zealot is already ridiculously overpowered. Buffs are going to be fought tooth and nail. We already lose our collective minds when @Keroc introduces unasked for buffs.

    Emir, you made some good points. Comments below:

    Disable:

    You cannot disable afflictions from hypnosis either, for example disabling indifference, etc.

    Disabling parry doesn't matter. Wrath gets around parry.

    Rebuke: Rebuke is not usable in it's current form. Afflicting soothing affs = no rebuke.

    Pendulum: All damage shifts. So pendulum is not usable with 3 or more broken limbs. Because whatever you're restoring will still cure. Many times, even w/ two broken limbs, you're going to "accidentally" cure whatever damage was shifted to that limb anyway. So it's not worth the 3 second investment

    Psi Tether: Psi Tether is more annoying then advantageous for zealot. I think classes are judged more 1v1 then group? Otherwise judges classes based off their group effectiveness is most likely impossible to balance?
    1v1 Tether no problem. Just annoying for whoever you're fighting, but it doesn't stop your resto.

    Lastly, if top tier believes its OP, where's the army of Zealots? And who has shown it being OP through wins? Not OP through losses. ;)
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Disable: Disabling parry matters.

    Rebuke: Then don't just spam rebuke, rebuke when you're not using soothing affs, or rebuke reflexively in niche scenarios where you can't 100% know where someone is going to hit you, and you say to yourself, man double parry would be super nice right now. Or, be just like everyone else and deal with limb classes with only 1 parry.

    Pendulum: If you're shifting at 3 breaks then yes, that is not worth the investment. That is something you need to take up with your offensive strategy.

    Top tier resides in Shadow.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
    edited June 5
    Iesid said:

    Zealot is a very strong class. I would go so far as to say it is top 3. Nobody plays it because it is Just Another Monk, which is boring... to me, anyways. It doesn't really figure into a Spirit strategy in teams at this time. Keroc has said that it is moreso a class for Sect Heroes/duelists (of which primarily reside on the opposite tether)... culturally, Spirit just cares less about sect and 1v1.

    If you thought Tether's on demand uncon was fair, I don't know what to say. It was mathematically too powerful.

    A class can still be considered overpowered or just plain amazing while nobody wins with it in sect or plays it. See: Sentinel. See, until recently: Archivist, Teradrim. To insist Zealot isn't OP just because of your KDR is like insisting a five star restaurant isn't a good establishment because a line cook or two burnt some steaks...

    Would you consider yourself a capable fighter?
    Drystin
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Holy unicorns dude this is 2019 not 2005.
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    Zynti
  • IesidIesid Member, Bot Posts: 54 ✭✭✭
    Zynti said:
    Zealot is a very strong class. I would go so far as to say it is top 3. Nobody plays it because it is Just Another Monk, which is boring... to me, anyways. It doesn't really figure into a Spirit strategy in teams at this time. Keroc has said that it is moreso a class for Sect Heroes/duelists (of which primarily reside on the opposite tether)... culturally, Spirit just cares less about sect and 1v1.

    If you thought Tether's on demand uncon was fair, I don't know what to say. It was mathematically too powerful.

    A class can still be considered overpowered or just plain amazing while nobody wins with it in sect or plays it. See: Sentinel. See, until recently: Archivist, Teradrim. To insist Zealot isn't OP just because of your KDR is like insisting a five star restaurant isn't a good establishment because a line cook or two burnt some steaks...
    Would you consider yourself a capable fighter?
    Since we are going there: I would consider myself a capable fighter, yes. I say that based on conversation with you, as well as 15 years of experience across 3 Iron Realms. I would not hesitate to say that in one of those games, I was top ten for a very long time. I'm, at the very least, not an amateur and my presence is a portion of why Spirit is currently succeeding on a group scale - which is where most meaningful conflict occurs. Sect is not the only measurement of combat acumen.

    It doesn't take a Crown of Omens to see that Tether was overpowered. It also doesn't take one to see how powerful of a class Zealot is. 
    RhyotZyntiFezzixTeani
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
    edited June 5
    @Iesid Good. Show me what you got against Top Tier. With the OP Zealot class. I hope that you prove me wrong - I'll go as far as giving you an incentive if you can make it happen. Accept or decline the incentive doesn't matter to me. Just prove me wrong... because right now all I've heard is words, no real data. So are you stepping up or just talking?

    Furthermore! Don't get me wrong. I think the class is amazing. The admins have done a good job with conceptualizing and building the class - there's just very specific limitations when it comes to acheiving the kill route. Immolation. I can break every limb and if you can cure your torso and tank damage, you won't die. Even with unconciousness from level 3 head break takes time to get a kill. Especially due to Zenith pressure periodically ending. Perhaps adding the affliction Burnt_Skin after heatspear ablaze and infernal seal is stuck?
    Post edited by Zynti on
    IesidIazamatOonagh
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 221 ✭✭✭
    edited June 5
    EDIT: I realized that might be deemed inappropriate, im a polite frog.
    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
  • GaladrielGaladriel Member, Bot Posts: 42
    before making a balance change suggestion on the forums perhaps you should try utilizing the class in the way it was meant to be used.
    1. Tether was not meant to be used offensively, its a tool to prevent people from doing like fezzix and running from you every time you break a limb. It's a way to prevent people from doing nothing but running. Nothing more nothing less. You were abusing it. I told you you were, you kept doing it anyways. I told you it'd get nerfed, it did, now you run to forums and complain.
    2. Every class has an active cure. Aka swagger, cleansing, panacea, etc. Rebuke is no different. You also have a parry skill, it's almost like double parry, though you have to sacrifice a round of offense to do so. Personally, i think it's overpowered as is.
    3. You need to go through your script and optimize it in key situations, and use it only in the right situations, your script is a hodgepodge of zealot attacks, which is why you find it difficult to finish someone off without doing something like abusing a 4 second unconscious.


    In short theres nothing wrong with the zealot skillset. You're using it wrong.

    Fezzix
  • JustusJustus Member Posts: 13
    The way you use Tether is stupid. That's all I got to say.
  • EmirEmir Member Posts: 386 ✭✭✭✭
    Nah the way he used tether was exactly how anyone who had Zealot would have used it, because it was that damn broken. 
    (Web): Toz says, "Emir's Express Evacuation and Existence Eradicator, Every Experience is Explosive - Experience the Entirety of your Existence!"
    IazamatFezzixOonagh
  • JustusJustus Member Posts: 13
    I use Zealot, I don't use tether? Why not.. hrm.. cause its a cheap move.
    EmirGaladriel
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
    Galadriel said:
    before making a balance change suggestion on the forums perhaps you should try utilizing the class in the way it was meant to be used. 1. Tether was not meant to be used offensively, its a tool to prevent people from doing like fezzix and running from you every time you break a limb. It's a way to prevent people from doing nothing but running. Nothing more nothing less. You were abusing it. I told you you were, you kept doing it anyways. I told you it'd get nerfed, it did, now you run to forums and complain. 2. Every class has an active cure. Aka swagger, cleansing, panacea, etc. Rebuke is no different. You also have a parry skill, it's almost like double parry, though you have to sacrifice a round of offense to do so. Personally, i think it's overpowered as is. 3. You need to go through your script and optimize it in key situations, and use it only in the right situations, your script is a hodgepodge of zealot attacks, which is why you find it difficult to finish someone off without doing something like abusing a 4 second unconscious. In short theres nothing wrong with the zealot skillset. You're using it wrong.
    1. Complain? No... sharing my point of view.  Unfortunately, you don't use the class so your opinion on how someone should or shouldn't use the class is null and void. Your suggestions can be made but stronger reinforced by personal experience.

    2. No comment

    3. You have more information but you seem to be ignoring it. I prefer not to engage in a discussion of reasoning with you, because you seem to intentionally ignore the facts. 

    From here on out - any wise guy that wants to judge the class and suggest how Zealot should or shouldn't be used. Just don't talk...show. I'm waiting to see it. Especially if you're refuting my comments above, walk the talk.

    It's an open challenge that no one is accepting. I find it odd for such an OP Top 3 Tier combat class everyone tends to be scared to prove me wrong.

    I'm waiting! Tic Tock!
  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the RainbowMember Posts: 181 ✭✭✭
    It's not a matter of being scared to prove you wrong, it's a matter of time investment. Why would Shadow make a Spirit char to just beat you at Zealot? Why would Iesid spend $200 which he earned from using his time working to buy credits to pick Zealot up, when he enjoys Sentinel?

    You're making ad hominem arguments, rather than actually addressing their comments about the class. This thread is ultimately pointless beyond providing you with a means of showing the internet another example of the traditional G.I.F.Theory in motion.
    JustusIazamatIesidAlathesia
  • JustusJustus Member Posts: 13
    So just throwing this out there. A class cost more than 200 bucks.
  • OonaghOonagh Member Posts: 221 ✭✭✭

    Oonagh has been slain by the might of the toxic atmosphere of Ulangi.
    Rhyot
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
    Eliadon said:

    It's not a matter of being scared to prove you wrong, it's a matter of time investment. Why would Shadow make a Spirit char to just beat you at Zealot? Why would Iesid spend $200 which he earned from using his time working to buy credits to pick Zealot up, when he enjoys Sentinel?

    You're making ad hominem arguments, rather than actually addressing their comments about the class. This thread is ultimately pointless beyond providing you with a means of showing the internet another example of the traditional G.I.F.Theory in motion.

    Incorrect it's not ad hominem. Why? Because my comments aren't directed toward their skill. I don't doubt their not skilled combatants in their own right. I doubt their solutions and opinion of the class, i.e Top 3 Tier, OP Class is true.

    So no, this is not about your personal combat expertise. Furthermore what comments have I not addressed? I've only heard rebuttals to my theories. Do you have an example of comments I haven't addressed that don't include claims of Zealot being OP? If so, I'm all ears.
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't take any of this serious until there's an FFA class pick for zealot with hella prizes. I'll take bets.

    ZyntiHavenRhyotDrystin
  • ZyntiZynti Member Posts: 15
    edited June 5
    Xenia said:

    I can't take any of this serious until there's an FFA class pick for zealot with hella prizes. I'll take bets.


    Post edited by Zynti on
    HavenZaila
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee Member Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭✭✭
    :grimace:
    httpsimages-ext-1discordappnetexternal8be0wXv29U0b9e3Zx0Ms-6O19NtmwxMAGo0Hqkw83Ochttpscdndiscordappcomattachments494775592382627840609989230072168448aish_wo_bgpngwidth960height614
  • ZarniZarni Member Posts: 16 ✭✭✭


    EmirIesid
  • IllidanIllidan Pray AreaMember Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6
    Almost everything that was said about Zealot:
                                    
                 Faaaaaaaaaaabulous!                                          Adorable!                                                               UHMAYZING!

    Calipso has been slain by the divine might of Razmael, the Synthesist.
    IesidZynti
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