Dominion

Xenia

I don't have a dog in this race, so to speak, but I'm curious to hear what the issues with the dominion are perceived to be. I'd assume if a player base was this upset, they'd replace leadership or something to that nature but I've not seen that happen. I can only assume that it's the mechanics of the dominion rather than direction if the same leadership continues to persist.

Iazamat

There's an entrenched playerbase that's comfortable with the current status quo and can't be replaced, at least not easily or on any meaningful scale. Any player who rocks the boat or fights against the status quo puts themselves at risk of being shunned or, worse (until the ability to quit Dominion), exiled.

The Primus, the leader of the Dominion, can't be replaced without a 4/5ths vote of the House leaders, and a number of the Houses are dead and run by ghouls who only play enough to maintain vote weight and a retinue of cronies willing to keep them in power. With this sort of dynamic and structure, if the Primus isn't willing to budge on policies and RP, nothing will change. And the Houses are ultimately beholden to the Primus and what they want.

As is, anyone willing to try to change things has already left the Dominion, quit the game (or is playing an alt), or has faded into the background to blend in and avoid problems. It's an absolute cluster of problems that has led to stagnancy of the game's "flagship" class and RP.

There's probably more I can say and elucidate on, but I'll have to save it for later.

Edit: Also, vampires have the Dominion and can join both a House and a guild, making it even easier to ignore when the Dominion or their House is spiraling the drain. They can also be part of Spinesreach or Bloodloch, making them unique from the rest of the game, and further able to distance themselves from perceived problems if they want.

Rhyot

The issues with the Dominion aren't necessarily a perception so much as they are a reality. First off, nobody even wanted the Dominion to be a thing in the first place. It was thrust upon Bloodloch because the admins said "You have to have this" with absolutely no care about the players feelings on it... Many people even spoke out against it when it first came out. But as with everything, we are told to shut up and color.

Now... That said... Lets move onto the Dominion as a whole. Even today, very few people even care about and even fewer talk on it. The Primus can only be selected by a 4/5 vote which forces a status quo that makes it much impossible to approve/change. And you cant replace the House leaders either.. And i will break down why...

• House Bahir'an: 2 people are active in this House... Sarita and Rhyot. This forces a 1:1 vote weight against each other. Plus Rhyot would never contest to get control of an organization that is essentially dead.
  

• House Nebre'seir: While this is a more active House, it is in turmoil due to a lack of combat people and a clear direction. You cant force people to be involved in PK and this leaves a combat house much to be desired.

• House Dbaen: I dont really know much about this House in all honesty, other than the fact that this House is in a downward spiral much similar to Bahir'an. In fact, they had a recent change of leadership that took AT LEAST 3 elections to get a new leader and even then, there was outcry about the chosen leader, ultimately making more people quit the House.
  

• House Bouchard: Shockingly became a House at the same time as the Dominion became a thing. However, it is arguably the most active House of the Dominion but also the most entrenched in their ways, in such that the leader maintains control and has maintained control for years on end... even when they were demoted to but a mere clan due to their inability to play nice with other Houses and merge back in 2013-2014.
  

• House Ve'kahi: ...... Sighs. This is probably the only House that has had a single member own it and have it become a joke of a House that everyone dogs on it. The leader cannot be replaced due to a centering ideology and cult following with the idea that only the leader can provide the House to move forward. In all honesty, this House has served no purpose other than to boost the ego of the one leading it.

The fact of the matter is that the Primus is in charge of an organization that absolutely NO ONE wants. Hell, its just a rewrite of the Imperium and THAT organization failed absolutely as well. The whole roleplay with the Dominion is just a shoddy "Im a higher blood rank than you because I'm close friends OOC/IC with the person who sired me so you have to listen to me."  So long as the Primus doesn't do anything stupid/drastic that goes against all 4 or 5 of the Houses that supported their position to Primus, then they will get to stay in charge for as long as they are active. This promotes a clique mentality, SUPPORTS a clique mentality, and it does nothing more than support these old age people and keep the newer blood/younger blood down beneath the boots of the older generations that are set in their ways.

Furthermore, the admins LATER tried to align the Dominion with the City of Bloodloch (by giving said Primus a seat as an Overlord).... regardless of the fact that the Dominion SHOULD have absolutely NO say in anything regarding city matters... but for whatever reason... they are tied in. Why? Maybe some odd sense of security to make people more apt to accept? I have no clue.

Ultimately, if the Dominion (and subsequently the Houses) were deleted... the game would be SO MUCH better off. We'd be rid of this elitist rp of "I'm better than you because I'm a higher blood rank than you." We'd be rid of people who maintain control of an unnecessary organization through fear, bribery, or a lack of people willing to stand up to their current leaders out of fear of retribution or emotional heart-string pulling. We could focus purely on city matters and guild matters... hell we could even have an ACTUAL guild remade for Praenomen maybe (RIP Bloodborn).

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY.... actually likes the Dominion. Its a pox, a virus, an infection.... and much like infections, viruses, and poxes (poxi?)... we need to get rid of it before we can get better.

Oonagh

EDIT: tl;dr no one has really given a damn about "the entrenched state of uninteresting" vampire RP except a few people for a long time. -and- I dont think anyone wants to see any bandaid fixes, send em the way of the Indorani and make them a faction.

Vyxsis

i have a vamp alt that i played for a few hours or something, as well as bought credits on to make him permanent so that the lulz of his name would live on forever... but i don't actually play vamps. the strict hierarchical RP with stupid titles and no sense of hope for any meaningful advancement/growth is a big reason why. like, genuinely, vamps in aetolia seem hella dumb to me, and i don't understand the draw at all unless you're going in with expectations based on other vamp lore...? tastes vary, of course, but yeah, that's mine.

to be clear, though, i don't have any especially negative feelings toward any individual vampire players as best as i can recall. i mostly just avoid the whole thing.

Rhyot said:

Furthermore, the admins LATER tried to align the Dominion with the City of Bloodloch (by giving said Primus a seat as an Overlord).... regardless of the fact that the Dominion SHOULD have absolutely NO say in anything regarding city matters... but for whatever reason... they are tied in. Why? Maybe some odd sense of security to make people more apt to accept? I have no clue.

so, for me, as a player of a living citizen of bloodloch who is now also guildless (altho previously tied to the city by guild), the Dominion having a permanent guaranteed seat on the ruling council pisses me off. as Rhyot noted, vampires of the Dominion are not bound to citizenship in Bloodloch the way anyone in a BL-based guild is, so while somewhat diluted, Bloodloch is mechanically forced to allow foreign influence on its ruling council. what happens if a Spirean citizen is made Primus? less extreme cases of influence persist so long as non-citizens belong to the Dominion.

why should the Dominion get a permanent Overlord spot, anyways? i recognize that Abhorash used to be the de facto ruler, with the city leader acting under him as a sort of representative, but like... listen, no player Primus can be equal to a quasi-deific NPC since such NPCs (rightly or wrongly) carry a certain sense of implied Admin Authority and have the ability to annihilate anyone who disobeys. if BL were like Duiran in having a guaranteed seat on the ruling council for each guild/major org, i'd understand, but that's not the case. right now, it seems like a hackneyed effort at preserving the "importance" of an organization that outlived its usefulness the second it came into existence.

so just, like, ask yourself - what is vampire RP adding to the game? anything?

i don't think it is. without meaning to excuse my faults, at least the indorani was an active org that spurred player activity beyond the guild at the time of deletion - those are things i don't think you can really say about the Dominion. it brings nothing to the table aside from giving a small handful of people something like practically-irrevocable hereditary titles.

just imo

Kalinaar

Just looking at this from the outside and don't know a whole lot about the houses so take this with a grain of salt. I see a few problems that would bother me.

There is a house that is basically a combat house and during the hours that I play at least, it looks like maz is the only one actually doing any pk. I could be wrong but that's what I'm seeing. The Primus should be involved in ensuring houses maintain their identity imo. Whether a house leader is just taking up space or a house isn't doing it's "job" this is where the primus should be doing something. Just my opinion.

Now to the primus... Who is the primus? lol... I mean, I don't think I've ever seen this person tbh. Someone taking up a position like that should be incredibly active, knowledgeable, involved in ALL houses, and should be active in PK affairs especially if you're ruling over a house that is supposed to be combat oriented. You had better know combat to some degree and be involved to qualify for a position that sounds like it's nearly as important as a deity. If not, this is where I think the staff should be giving a nudge at the very least.

That's just my two cents but inactive people in positions like this and/or deity positions cause RP to completely dry up and take away the theme they are supposed to support. That is something that can be detrimental for an RP mud. 

Aishia

The time I was a vampire we probably had 5 house leaders inside a year or two? Since I left it's been the exact same one. Five six seven years now idek? There is no way this kind of lack of ambition is healthy even WITH an active and supportive leader. Blood rank is a toxic concept. Giving any player a stamp of mandate over others, even a cursory one can breed a sense of helplessness and inferiority in people who DON'T get one. Earned ranks and positions or titles are one thing but idk.

Xenia

It sounds like the Dominion should become more of a merit based system rather than rewarding longevity and time. It also sounds like the mechanic to be Primus should even probably be tied to PK rather than politicking and earning the support of a number of House members. I also even wonder if the Primus should be given the ability to dismantle houses if this is their prerogative. It's always scary imagining players with that sort of power, but in granting the Primus to a player character, it suggests that the Primus should have this inherent power over the Dominion of Vampires. I wonder if it's even worth having this Primus position for the players if all that power and responsibility isn't going to be given to the Primus.

My next question would be to ask how would the current undeath players (in the Dominion or not) see their organization reworked. I hear just delete everything, but I think that in itself makes the whole faction less flavorful. Should Primus be something that is earned with the merit of achievement in PvP, and if so, would people enjoy having everything hinge on the whims of a singular character who has risen to that position?

Iazamat

The Dominion acting as a guild-like structure with the Houses becoming transient factions within the Dominion is a neat idea, especially if the Primus is given the ability to create and dismantle said Houses. The problem ultimately becomes someone spite-deleting a House due to OOC motivation and the resulting fallout. We could end up losing more players - if that's a risk that everyone's willing to take, I'd be more than glad to see us given more player agency. Especially if the position of Primus becomes one that could be fought over and won through force.

Still, the problem of making the Primus won through PvP or the singular leader is that it will eventually lead to the same problems we're having now. Someone will win and become unmovable and lead to either stagnation or a groupie status that tries to stonewall anyone looking to change things. The reason people are clamouring for deletion, though, is that the RP for vampires has been the same for... honestly, for as long as I've been playing. And it's even been doubled down on with efforts like the Dominion and further consolidating vampires into a single super-structure. Even the Houses are functionally and RPly the exact same. Vampires currently don't add anything to BL or the game as a whole beyond being vampires. Their RP doesn't impact anyone but themselves, and no further lore or reason to venture beyond that RP has been given to vampires. If the Dominion and Houses were to be deleted, nothing would be missed except by those comfortable with the status quo.

Suffice it to say, I don't know what to do. Some want it deleted, some don't. Some want change, others don't. If things stay the same, some players will be upset. If things change, other players will be upset. At this point, I'd be content making vampires choose between Dominion or guild and letting them stick to their own corner of the game if they so choose.

Xenia

I think there's an overall issue with base line lore that's granted to various factions. With Carnifex it was this ongoing issue against Dhar, where in reality there was not much to expand on without heavy admin support. Currently I suffer through it with the Archivists. They're supposed to be attaining relics , studying them and then expanding on them. Yet there is no way for even an object to be created that is tangible in a mechancial way. It asks for an expansion in RP that is easily dismantled and not very well supported on a high level. It seems like the same thing is happening here.

It's one of those things where eventually the players need to be given more agency if they are being tasked with the duty of developing the seeds of lore and RP that are given to them. As is, we're given seeds, players can water the seed with RP, but without sunshine (i.e the ability to build to the world in a way that extends beyond illusions and emotes), not much can be grown.

We fall into issues where players must make do, which is all fine until what the players make gets dismantled by a game direction change and then they are left to start from scratch, study a new seed that's handed to them, and then make do with nothing all over again.

How do you all think this dynamic should be changed?

Kalinaar

The primus should be a serious badass imo. They should be feared and respected by both tethers. Someone who not ONLY has strong political support and activity but can back it up in combat. I think a less popular vote based system that allows a member of the dominion to contest the primus would be good. Perhaps having the support of your house leader and one other would be sufficient political grounds for an individual to contest the primus at which point they could duel and let their skill in combat be the final deciding factor. Just off the top of my head but active, well rounded, and fair opportunity for replacement would solve most of these issues.

Rhyot

Xenia said:

My next question would be to ask how would the current undeath players (in the Dominion or not) see their organization reworked. I hear just delete everything, but I think that in itself makes the whole faction less flavorful. Should Primus be something that is earned with the merit of achievement in PvP, and if so, would people enjoy having everything hinge on the whims of a singular character who has risen to that position?

I don't think there is any way to rework the Dominion in any capacity that would allow the undead players (or any player) to accept it. It is a twice beaten horse that has been dead for years on end (no pun intended). I've been playing since 2012-2013 and there is absolutely no lore, no roleplay, no set in stone object of entertainment that gives vampirism any real interest beyond the Praenomen class. IN FACT, most people are even wary of vampires because of the inherent ability for sires and the sire of one's sire to be able to spy on any conversation going on.. something a handful of people do as a form of keeping control.

Primus being selected via PVP would be interesting, however Iazamat nailed the head on that one perfectly. You'll get someone in that cannot be killed or taken down (Mazzion, Emir, etc) and then we will run into the EXACT SAME PROBLEM we have now. So this idea is also inherently bad on its own.

Xenia said:

We fall into issues where players must make do, which is all fine until what the players make gets dismantled by a game direction change and then they are left to start from scratch, study a new seed that's handed to them, and then make do with nothing all over again.

How do you all think this dynamic should be changed?

I don't think dynamic can be changed. You've got a group of people with VERY elitist attitudes because they've been in control for SO LONG that any dynamic change will see these same people attempt to usurp control of any new dynamic installed. We saw it when the Dominion went from admin control to player control.... the first player Primus was debated/argued for weeks before Trager was chosen. The reason why it took so long was because all of the House Leaders wanted someone that they felt that they could control. (Once again, control is what is desired).


The only way for this to be changed is the extreme deletion of the Dominion and the Houses. Don't even make them a faction. We don't need this elitist rp of "I am better than thou because a person of high blood rank sired me." We don't even need people to be accepting of this change, because the ones that wouldn't accept this change are the VERY SAME people who make the problems that I've stated. So would that really be a huge loss to lose elistist rpers? I don't think so.

Vyxsis

i just want to respond to one thread of conversation that's happening here regarding PK and leadership.

i think i can say i'm a pretty decent PKer, and at the very least, it's something i enjoy about Aetolia. that said, i absolutely loathe the idea of having the leadership of any particular org come down to PK. PKers are a super salty bunch, and not all of them have the ability (or wisdom?) to PK... judiciously. if you tell someone they're in charge because they can kill really well, i don't think it'd be surprising if an immoderate person took this as license to kill for whatever reason, and i think you'd risk attracting such immoderate people.

plus, like, frankly? PK in Aetolia is an arcane, time-consuming pursuit. many people simply don't have the energy or interest to become Good At PK, and i think that's both fair and something we ought to nurture. players all have different strengths, right? i'd hate for somebody with great leadership skills, organizational skills, and creativity to be passed over simply because they'd rather dig deep into lore than spend untold hours learning about mechanics, writing and debugging an offense, testing it in the live combat, etc. i don't think that's the healthiest thing for this game.

frankly, "good at PK" doesn't even register in my top five qualifications for an org leader. i want someone knowledgeable, personable, articulate, passionate, and engaged. some PKers check these boxes! but lemme tell you, most i've met don't even hit 3 out of 5.

soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yeah. please let's not make PK the bar anyone has to clear for org leadership. thanks!

Emir

I think being a PKer adds appeal to someone leading an org. I don't think it should be a requirement. 

Unless your characters last name is Nebre'seir. 

Justus

Dominion is a waste of stress levels. The player base isn't big enough to support all the houses, as most people have been cured or moved on from VAMP RP. Really need to delete two houses if you want any chance of keeping the dominion alive and making it a best out of 2 out of 3 vote instead of a 4 out of 5 vote. Also a way for people to over throw house leadership outside of elections would be a good way to keep balance. The vote system based off of play time is kinda meh, cause naturally people who don't like the leadership will just play less.