Wisp/Leer Discussion

Eliadon

Hello friends and foes alike!

Here is a dedicated forum post for wisp and leer. Please discuss here - my own opinion will be in a comment so that the main post doesn't get downdooted into oblivion.

Emir

@Stine your post came off like a PC version of Benes claim that all we do is whine and get shit, hence the swearing, because it is un-fucking-believable that such a statement would be made in light of the last God damned year of balancing decisions and the current line up of abilities.

@Benedicto I'd rather whine and get shit then have Keroc feel sorry for my tether due to extreme levels of incompetence and then buff us.

Which is where wisp came from in the first place.

Eliadon

I think you're all being babies about an easily bypassed mechanic.

With the overall size of group battles, as ylem is rarely <4v4, wisp and leer are almost meaningless if your target callers do it right.

Everyone in the group should know the preferred target order prior to engagement - all wisp/leer/isolate do is stop you from seeing a) target calls and b) ally aff callouts (which are, by design of the game, not visible in 3p messages for several reasons).

Regarding target calls: wisp/isolate/leer should do next to nothing here. If you only have one target caller and they get wisped/leer'd/isolated, it's your own fault for not having a backup caller. If your team doesn't know the target list, you're doing it wrong. If your team is incapable of typing T NEXTPERSONONTHELIST after they stop seeing their own attacks or see a death message, they're doing it wrong. If your team doesn't know when to swap targets regardless of a target caller having to say <X> SHIELDED/PRISMATIC'D/ETC, they're doing it wrong. Turning your brain off and letting your system just run your offense for you while someone else calls targets should not be rewarded, and this mechanic helps with that.

Regarding aff callouts: Good, such heavy automation of offenses trivializes small group combat and I will happily see aff callouts gone (looking at you, support Templar).

Regarding class distribution: Lack of Praenomen is a bit of a problem, but that's at least partially due to bullcrap inconvenience mechanics that come with being undead, and partially due to lol Dominion. Hopefully this change will make people want to use it more in groups I guess? As for monks: show me the Sentaari bb. I'd put money on Shadow having more people with Monk that PK in any capacity than Spirit does, but that's a somewhat tertiary thing 8^).

As it is a different case than the >3v3 situation laid out above -

It could very well be worth a round or two to kill the wisp in <4v4, as it hinders coordination. I'm not sold on it being completely busted, other than stopping the aff callouts bit as described above, but it's definitely strong.

Antehe

I am going to go ahead and state: If you're feeling heated, take a walk and come back please. You aren't enemies or against each other OOC, you're on the same team against a problem. You share the game, and both tethers want people to participate in PvP.

Rijetta

I think Wisp is annoying but Eliadon raises some excellent points - it could do a pretty good job of punishing people who just hit button expect kill... the issue therein became that only one side had it, and that we're not exactly flooded with people who even want to bother with PK. I think a large number of the people who do the hit button expect kill only did it because Foci PK is accessible, both because of no exp loss and because of things like Sunder/CATS. If Eliadon is right, Wisp kinda directly punishes that.

My issue is that QUIT DOMINION came too long after the fact, and while these Praenomen buffs are absolutely incredible, most of us who could make use of them have already cured with no intention to go back.

EDIT: Of note regarding Praenomen, too, for me at least, I can't really go back without taking pretty much all my recent RP and huck it out the window. So if we continue to dislike wisp (and Leer, since it is the same skill), we are simply not using all the tools available to us.. but Praenomen is the only full class that has such a heavy RP commitment to it. It's a lot less RP-intense for a Templar who wants to support his allies with isolation to go pick up Sentinel.

Iesid

Make wisp and nightingale mutually exclusive a la crocodile and cockatrice.

Or just delete wisp and delete leer.I don't really care which of these are picked.

I don't understand why my class was given isolate (hey cool, a Duiran 3v3 team would, on paper, dismantle most strategies in circulation due to 2x isolate) but I was happy to play around with it. I do not look gift horses in the mouth and I trust Keroc to know what is and is not too much. I do not use it as often as I should due to a bug I can't seem to entirely replicate where it decides the wisp wants to isolate ME.

It's assuredly a game changer... but you all need to remember that the counterplay was present. I was greedy and didn't pack Nightingale. I usually don't, frankly - not bringing it hasn't screwed me yet and that's not really my fault.

I'd have rather we received something else to encourage more representation of the Sentinel class, since that was almost assuredly the aim of giving us the skill. I only say that because it's clear that this wasn't the right thing to give to us based on how it allowed warping of the information game. With easier access to the Telepathy classes, Spirit has more ubiquitous sources of Isolate already. Sentinel also getting it was just begging us to make your channels and etc eerily quiet.

We packed 3 sources of isolate yesterday and it clearly did some damage, but remember that two of those sources are neutral tether. Maybe the issue is also one of class availability and I would be down to analyze that.

Oonagh

Honestly, having played Sentinel in the past ala Quickfoot days (SHUUUN) compared to now....Sentinel is super strong, and I feel like Wisp was added as per the discussions for other utility skills being afforded to make group combat more engaging and less BASH. However I do feel it was a bit of an overstep, because its a disable skill, we already have monks who can isolate, we definitely didnt need a second class to do that.

That and I would rather use another more useful animal and afford more afflictions or ability to block, or freezing to push salve.

Like anyone who knows me knows im not a huge combatant, but like I do have an okay grasp on mechanics and am happy to engage and conversation and afford insight where I can.

PERSONALLY - I would like more ranged utility over a disable, but thats just my two cents. We have LOS but perhaps some more area-wide ability ala Star/Doppleganger would be nice. Currently we have Kai Choke/Cataclysm/Overgrowth for area ability on spirit compared to Doppleganger/Kaichoke/Cataclysm/Star Tarot/Sand. I feel like I might be missing something im at work and just using my noodle real quick here.

But that would be way cooler.

I love having to think more and use my skills in combat, even if I am not good at it, the last few fights have been really enjoyable I have been part of

Mjoll

The ability to play that mind game must be nice. "Do they have nightingale? How much time do we waste finding out? Hey there's two sentinels and two wisps; Which wisp is protected by the nightingale and which isn't?"

Oonagh

Rijetta said:

I think Wisp is annoying but Eliadon raises some excellent points - it could do a pretty good job of punishing people who just hit button expect kill... the issue therein became that only one side had it, and that we're not exactly flooded with people who even want to bother with PK. I think a large number of the people who do the hit button expect kill only did it because Foci PK is accessible, both because of no exp loss and because of things like Sunder/CATS. If Eliadon is right, Wisp kinda directly punishes that.

My issue is that QUIT DOMINION came too long after the fact, and while these Praenomen buffs are absolutely incredible, most of us who could make use of them have already cured with no intention to go back.

EDIT: Of note regarding Praenomen, too, for me at least, I can't really go back without taking pretty much all my recent RP and huck it out the window. So if we continue to dislike wisp (and Leer, since it is the same skill), we are simply not using all the tools available to us.. but Praenomen is the only full class that has such a heavy RP commitment to it. It's a lot less RP-intense for a Templar who wants to support his allies with isolation to go pick up Sentinel.

Honestly I had alot of fun at a lesser recently with you cause I had to use some evasion skills to avoid dying, you played some cat and mouse with me on the highway, I was able to leap back in and poorly fight a couple times cause my eye trigger made me wield a vial in one hand.

RIP

But I agree that it should be more than a button push, you need to be aware and prepared to change things up, have a few aliases to switch between. Make it Semi-Automatic instead of Automatic. Overall getting into combat has been fun and I am learning alot of things, I mean the last time I really got into fighting, Teradrim had sand wands and Sentinels just had dropped spears and axes for dhurives. Thank you Fighterbois for teaching this frog some new tricks.

Fezzix

@Oonagh Sentinel has bear ent, which is a total block that can't be bypassed. They also get access to impatience on demand and traps, thus making them already more useful in groups than the other "venom" classes. I'll argue that with the utility they already had, they didn't need Wisp at all.

@Eliadon The Dominion RP and nature of vampirism from a lore standpoint is a major turnoff, like @Rijetta already mentioned, but they also have to deal with a very inconvenient Blood resource, arguably the most annoying in the game. And no, Spirit side -definitely- has more people who both own and actively use the monk class.

@Mjoll Also, sentinel ents take several rounds to kill, and the sentinel can just resummon both. It isn't worth it to attempt a "counter."

@Iesid You are correct, monk is neutral so its Isolate stuff is fine since it's technically available to both tethers, albeit with a credit price tag for Shadow folks. The tradeoff is that we get syssin and phase shenanigans for free (even though you can't use Phase in the arena, which I'm totally fine with not having).

Oonagh

Fezzix said:

@Oonagh Sentinel has bear ent, which is a total block that can't be bypassed. They also get access to impatience on demand and traps, thus making them already more useful in groups than the other "venom" classes. I'll argue that with the utility they already had, they didn't need Wisp at all.

I agree with you on this 100 percent, I think wisp -IS- unnecessary. - I thought I made that clear in my post my apologies for not.
I definitely dont think sentinel needs buffs, its been a strong class for quite some time, IT DOES NEED SOME PVE BUFFS.....just a little damage.

Rhyot

Delete wisp, delete leer, delete Dominion.

Done.

Emir

You have to question the state of the game when Rhyot makes 3 suggestions and all 3 are the best suggestions made in a thread. 

Oonagh

The End Times are upon us.

Eliadon

Fezzix said:

Eliadon The Dominion RP and nature of vampirism from a lore standpoint is a major turnoff, like @Rijetta already mentioned, but they also have to deal with a very inconvenient Blood resource, arguably the most annoying in the game. And no, Spirit side -definitely- has more people who both own and actively use the monk class

Yeah, I did mention vampire BS. ;P as for the monk bit, that's probably what I get for avoiding ylem recently. Alas, my bet

Keroc

So what's the consensus here?

The wisp idea originally spawned from the thread requesting we have more utility skills in team combat so that better players could utilise them to overcome big numbers but weak preparation. Isolate mechanics almost perfectly fit the role here, and encourages everyone to watch who their team is hitting hit and follow along (or call target order beforehand), rather then rely on a target call. Mostly a small skill to learn, which is why I never really thought of it as being a massive game changer.

Maybe there's some argument that in smaller groups it affects affliction tracking and the like, but there's way more efficient strategies then perfect affliction tracking. Just going for writhe/disable strats in a low team number scenario is probably more effective.

Sentinel got picked as I felt trading out a Woodlore entity for wisp (or two if you want nightingale too) was a fairly big trade off, as you'd lose out on extra damage, and Dhuriv doesn't exactly do a whole lot of damage on its own. Maybe it could've gone on a better class, but it seemed like the easiest fit at the time and I like to pick lesser used classes to draw attention to them AND limit how much you end up having to deal with it so people can get used to it slowly. Bad choices perhaps?

Anyway, feel free to let me know here as I'd like to know. Is it specifically the mechanics of wisp/leer that you dislike? Or do we not like that it was Sentinel that got them initially and should've been a different class?

Mjoll

I wasn't going to comment because I don't want to come across as the salty rage monster than I can be, but I SPENT A LOT OF TIME CRAFTING A RESPONSE THAT I HOPE SOUNDS NOTMAD(tm) AND I REALLY WANT YOU TO SEE IT PLEASE.

Personally, it felt staggeringly bad that the already stronger skillsets (single person blocking in 2 classes, mass beckon, defend, rites, on-demand force, through block yank, psy_tether) got a side specific, coordination killer, with no counterplay because nightingale exists.

Benedicto

I'm of the opinion that we should bin wisp/leer.

Rhyot

Benedicto said:

I'm of the opinion that we should bin wisp/leer.

And the Dominion. Can we do that at the same time while we're binning things??

Church

I think severed communication is an interesting mechanic and having to adapt to it is a fair and reasonable expectation HOWEVER BEFORE YOU RAGE I ALSO THINK that applying it essentially passively via wisp is absolutely nutso. An effect like this might be better implemented through a trap or a standalone Dhuriv attack, if it is going to remain a part of the Sentinel kit.

Aishia

Make nightingale not work/make it sigilable make it mutually exclusive with another ent idk

Iazamat

Keroc said:

So what's the consensus here?

[snip]

Anyway, feel free to let me know here as I'd like to know. Is it specifically the mechanics of wisp/leer that you dislike? Or do we not like that it was Sentinel that got them initially and should've been a different class?

From my perspective, the initial dislike for Wisp had more to do with the fact that there simply was no counterplay, though there was some disgust that it had been given to a class that absolutely didn't need it. The onus was on a single side that has, rather consistently, been outnumbered (but not outgunned) to come up with more code solutions for yet another skill on the opposing side whose toolkits already required that sort of group effort and coordination - a skill specifically meant to sever that coordination. If isolation as a mechanic was limited to being used by the smaller group so as to give them the edge a fighting chance, this would have been a very different scenario, but as is, it was given to the side that regularly fields far more people (even if those people go untrained and uncoordinated) in what felt like an attempt to give them another leg up. Whether that's true or not doesn't need debated, that's what it ultimately ended up feeling like to us, though.

To further compound issues, Leer has a counterplay element to it. It can be easily re-applied, no doubt, but the fact of the matter is that these sorts of imbalances exist pretty heavily across both sides of the games and lead to a lot of bitterness and resentment, especially when the concerns regarding them go unheeded for long periods of time.

Edit: I also think it's pertinent to point out that you consider it a "small skill" to learn who to target in group fights as a workaround to this isolation mechanic, but it's more of a problem for coding than it is one of personal player skill (which is already all over the place as is). Code is more reliable and spam is difficult to see through for a lot of people. So it requires someone or multiple someones to create a solution and then teach others how to implement and use it. It goes quite a ways beyond being a "simple skill".

Iesid

Iazamat said:

From my perspective, the initial dislike for Wisp had more to do with the fact that there simply was no counterplay,

There is absolutely counterplay to Wisp if Nightingale isn't present, and stating things the way you have in the above is disingenuous at best. It's not conducive to an effective discussion on this topic, so please accept that both skills have their benefits and weaknesses. Some people here need to admit that there is counterplay to this skill if Nightingale doesn't exist. You can test for the presence of nightingale via something as easy as POKE NIGHTINGALE or PROBE NIGHTINGALE.1;PROBE NIGHTINGALE.2;PROBE NIGHTINGALE.3 - these have no opportunity cost. It's free information. Make use of it.

If we then continue this argument and people move the goal posts, claiming that 'no sensible Sentinel will bring Wisp without Nightingale, so your counterplay argument is moot', why do I keep getting away with doing exactly that?

A lot of the complaints here come off as tether tribalism. That's no way to balance a game or convey your mechanically-minded concerns.

Keroc said:

So what's the consensus here?

I like Wisp, but I would not be sad to see it go if Leer is also going. That doesn't, however, address the concern that Monk Isolate is a powerful team skill that both tethers should have equal access to - but do not, because the Monk class is in a Spirit guild. I suppose the Syssin balance this out in... some way, as @Fezzix pointed out. If we're going to be real, I think that if we can't solve that problem, we should just put Wisp and Leer under the magnifying glass until they're fair.

I have questions: are you alright with Wisp/Nightingale as a combo?

Can you run with a Wisp attached to you and kill it outside of the Nightingale's room? [EDIT: I no longer need confirmation on this. There is counterplay EVEN IF NIGHTINGALE IS PRESENT.]

Keroc said:

The wisp idea originally spawned from the thread requesting we have more utility skills in team combat so that better players could utilise them to overcome big numbers but weak preparation. Isolate mechanics almost perfectly fit the role here, and encourages everyone to watch who their team is hitting hit and follow along (or call target order beforehand), rather then rely on a target call. Mostly a small skill to learn, which is why I never really thought of it as being a massive game changer.

It assuredly does this. I like it for that reason. I would like more game-changing skills like this spread out among classes; it would make class composition and knowing your enemy's composition a far more important. Warping target orders for both sides, etc.

Keroc said:

Sentinel got picked as I felt trading out a Woodlore entity for wisp (or two if you want nightingale too) was a fairly big trade off, as you'd lose out on extra damage, and Dhuriv doesn't exactly do a whole lot of damage on its own. Maybe it could've gone on a better class, but it seemed like the easiest fit at the time and I like to pick lesser used classes to draw attention to them AND limit how much you end up having to deal with it so people can get used to it slowly. Bad choices perhaps?

This makes a lot of sense and clears up my confusion. I also think the balance was built in via the opportunity cost of "you can only take 4 of your animal buddies" - moreso even when you consider nightingale/wisp taking up half your choices and it doesn't mean the enemy team can't just whack you directly to get rid of it. I think that, through this lens, you made the right choice... especially because some of the other things Sentinel can do in teams would require I use up the other half of my animal choices (icewyrm/raloth) and miss out on elk or give up nightingale for elk... and then suddenly I also don't get bear, so there goes that powerful block that people keep bringing up!

People are looking at Sentinel as a whole kit and listing its strengths, utility, etc... but some of that utility is very clearly gated behind the fact that I can't bring all animals. I often find myself sacrifice Nightingale for Bear and then that makes my entire entourage vulnerable... in theory, anyways.

Sentinel was an interesting place to put this. If I had to choose where else I'd put it, I don't think I'd have an answer for you.

Oonagh

Okay so upon testing wisp....stuff.

Wisp attaches to you to isolate you.

[SND] You: LOSE def_rebounding.
You use Tenacity Lob on a wood wisp.
[SND] You: HIT lob a wood wisp!
A diminutive nightingale weaves together a melody of protection, saving a wood wisp from harm.
[SND] Balance: 1.04s.
[Source]: Info: +DEF+ REBOUNDING
[none]
You take a long drag off your pipe filled with reishi.
[Source]: Info: 6 smokes left in reishi

[[MOVE SOUTH]]

The seventh landing in the Temple (56131) - The city of Enorian (428)
Resting on the ground is a cube-shaped silver sigil. There are 2 steadfast Templars here. Swathed in
white cloth, an alert, gold-marked temple warrior patrols here. There are 3 Ascendril mages here. A
sigil in the shape of a small, rectangular monolith is on the ground.
You see exits leading north (open pine curtain), east (open pine curtain), south (open pine
curtain), west (open pine curtain), up, and down.
[7068(100%)|5464(100%)|0|99%|100%|74.17%] [HMcsdb eb] [none]group
You are following no one.
The following people are in your group:
The following creatures are in your group:
A wood wisp#320005
[7068(100%)|5464(100%)|0|99%|100%|74.17%] [HMcsdb eb] (+2e) [none]kill wisp
[Source]: Info: -DEF- REBOUNDING

[SND] You: LOSE def_rebounding.
You use Tenacity Chop on a wood wisp.
[SND] You: HIT chop a wood wisp!
Damage done: 102, cutting, brute
[SND] DEATH: a wood wisp
--------Leveling Stats--------------------
EXP Gained: 0xp (4615265 total)
Next Level: 1607372xp (1.#INF mobs)
Haven Point: 51712.75xp (1.#INF mobs)
------------------------------------------
[SND] Balance: 1.94s.
[Source]: Info: +DEF+ REBOUNDING


A single hit with 102 damage killed the wisp and I could go back in, literally negating the wisp and having to make it be recalled.
--I now am not sure if this is as bad as it is being made out to be for a group strategy.

I am still on board with delete wisp/leer, but it seems to be an easily negated thing. Especially if people can strategize and not just depend on a single person.


EDIT: Cause this was an appropriate afterthought....

You give a Keroc plush toy a friendly squeeze.
[7068(100%)|5464(100%)|0|99%|100%|74.17%] [HMcsdb eb] [none]

As he is squeezed, the oversized, grey head of a plush Keroc doll turns towards you before he offers you a tiny bag of salt and a bright smile.

Fezzix

@Iesid I can think of an even better counter for group combat. Bear/Nightingale/Wisp. Now they can't get the wisp to follow them outside the room to kill it.

It seems like every argument I see for countering Wisp can in itself be countered. And if we DO manage to kill the wisp, you can just summon another one.

I'm in favor of deleting Leer and Wisp entirely.

Iesid

Fezzix said:

@Iesid I can think of an even better counter for group combat. Bear/Nightingale/Wisp. Now they can't get the wisp to follow them outside the room to kill it.

It seems like every argument I see for countering Wisp can in itself be countered. And if we DO manage to kill the wisp, you can just summon another one.

I'm in favor of deleting Leer and Wisp entirely.

Are you implying that every fight in Aetolia is in a one exit room? If so, doesn't that mean you could just as easily keep me trapped in one of those rooms against Leer?

Let us be very clear: the skills are more the same than any of you want to admit.

EDIT: You can also kill the Sentinel, much like you can kill the Prae.

Iazamat

The skills are more alike now that Leer exists, yes. This was not the case previously when only Wisp existed, which is the state from which I was answering Keroc's question. I don't appreciate claims of being disingenuousness when counterarguments themselves continue to be just as disingenuous. I especially don't like claims of tether tribalism when I was simply voicing concerns and know both sides are guilty of it (especially regarding the addition of Leer).

Frankly, I find it hypocritical. I've said my piece, though, and will leave the thread to everyone else. 

Fezzix

Someone mentioned it earlier, but the solution to a problem isn't to create another problem on the opposite tether. I'd prefer balance over an arms race of unfair abilities.

Vyxsis

Shadow folks should refer to my latest post in Raiders for a target calling workaround. thanks.

ETA: once we all (myself included) learn to use it, it should be quite effective.

Keroc

Fezzix said:

Someone mentioned it earlier, but the solution to a problem isn't to create another problem on the opposite tether. I'd prefer balance over an arms race of unfair abilities.

What is unfair to you? Where's the line you draw. I realise other people may have already answered for you, but indulge me!

Vyxsis

Keroc said:

Fezzix said:

Someone mentioned it earlier, but the solution to a problem isn't to create another problem on the opposite tether. I'd prefer balance over an arms race of unfair abilities.

What is unfair to you? Where's the line you draw. I realise other people may have already answered for you, but indulge me!

i'm not fezzix, but to answer for myself: i don't think it's fair to buff classes/abilities because the users aren't performing. certainly, buff or nerf abilities that need to be, but essentially rewarding doing poorly (or punishing those doing well, whichever way you prefer to look at it) sets off all my unfairness alarms. from my understanding, there's a relatively trans-tether consensus that spirit doesn't do as well as shadow on the whole not because their classes aren't viable, but because of a lack of player effort, engagement, interest, etc. in my opinion, performance is only a useful metric for comparison when other variables are equal - in particular, skill & optimization. if syssin has a high winrate, is that because it's busted? or is there some other factor that ought to be considered, like that its main combatant has honed his offense to a razor's edge and has nigh-impeccable situational judgement?

i get the temptation to give people "morale buffs" lest they just continue to disengage, but at some point, you can't buff away disinterest or lack of effort. people with greater skill will *always* find a way to work past it, and you've really only imbalanced the game further while fueling the cycle of bad feelings on both tethers.

similarly, i don't think it's fair that, on the one hand, you have classlead guidelines saying that reports that aren't well-thought-out or lack reasonable solutions will not do well, but then on the other, you'll approve incoherent and frankly nonsensical reports while providing some other solution (coughtarotwheelcough). again, it's like... why bother? why should i put in the effort to write a thoughtful report when people who *aren't* putting in effort are getting rewarded for it? it seems to me like, at best, you're deciding completely without reference to the reports, which again begs the question of why should i bother writing them?

so, uh, yeah. tl;dr - the line i draw is about balancing philosophy, and in particular, my perception (and i do recognize it's my perception) of your balancing philosophy.