This doesn't happen enough

Mjoll

MORE LOGS ON THE FORUMS!
Constructive criticism welcome.

https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/hRYbqb3y

Haven

Take what I say with a grain of salt since it's been a long while since I've played and am sure they've made changes.

That said... a couple of things I noticed with just a quick glance: Against a Syssin you're prioritizing Paresis/Paralysis far too high above kelp. For Syssin, paralysis is their distraction/"anxiety" to help stack their real goal of sticking asthma. They only care about sticking paralysis later once the soft-lock (asthma stuck on you) has been established.

The second thing is that you aren't really hindering Fezzix much. A genuine bravo for opting to fight through hyponosis but between dissipate, void, and the likely successful landing of impatience - you have a small margin for error during that period his hyponosis chain is running. It's absolutely imperative you hinder unless you're near your own kill condition.

Things I'd recommend: As a Carnifex, or any class with fitness really, you can afford to ignore the paresis long enough to recover a single kelp stack. Maybe even until it turns into paralysis as they do not have anything to really capitalise off paralysis specifcally whereas a Templar might impale you or something. Unless the hypnochain has started, you might want to try something like if TREE is on cooldown and paresis + asthma + kelp aff then choose to cure 1 kelp aff then paresis. Or if you don't mind the hinder and feeling ballsy just ignore paresis all together until asthma cured down if you're confident in your hindering/healing ability. It's a tricky balance. I also believe the Carnifex also have an ability that allows them to function through paralysis, right? That might come in handy here too.

I also noticed a couple of times as well where you had Asthma + Kelp Aff (clumsiness or hypochondria or weariness) and stupidity and your system cured stupidity instead? Maybe it was attempting to reduce the impatience stack, not sure, but that's dangerous against a Syssin. Granted, that might have been latency or lag or something since your system didn't always do it. I'd need to look a bit closer at the log but for sure your priorities are hurting you against the kelp stack.

The second thing I'd recommend is taking a look at how much hinder is available to your class and see if it lines up with your kill condition. You really have until the time a Syssin snaps their fingers and start their hypnochain to acquire some sort of lead because once it starts... You either need to be transitioning into your midgame/kill condition or be able to hinder/turtle like hell.

I'm not sure how epilepsy plays into your kill condition but it's not being delivered fast enough to be an effective hinder. So unless you can deliver and stick impatience, you might be better off with a different hound. Breaking limbs (arms for hinder, legs help your kill condition via wrench if I'm not mistaken) is an effective method of hindering to help your system catch up. You could also prioritize clumsiness over paresis for your offense. This helps for situations where you're razeslashing and he's off balance for many cures (recon is on cooldown, pill balance off, etc.). While, yes, he can still attack you through both, at least with clumsiness he has an increased chance of missing you. If he misses, that means more time for your system to heal and recover.

TL;DR Adjust your curing prioritization against Syssin. Hinder, hinder, hinder during hypnochain. Find a more competitive (faster or equal) kill condition. Syssin are more susceptible to limb classes and anything that can burst them down via damage. My information may be out of date, so again, grain of salt.

Fezzix

@Haven People typically cure paresis when they have tree balance or will recover tree balance before they're able to eat again. Some people also cure paresis early so they can spam shield tattoo, which can be effective against syssin. Another thing I saw in that fight was a dstab happening on the exact same prompt as a cure that was parsed earlier, which happens no matter what system you use.

Impatience is a higher priority cure against syssin than digging out of the decongestant(kelp) stack. This is especially true for carnifex, who have access to Deathlore Purge for a random physical aff.

And yes, clumsiness is the best way to hinder any class that isn't unaffected by it. This is why every venom class pushes clumsiness first in their venom table. Mjoll is no exception.

Also! Void no longer procs during the hypnosis chain, and Savagery Recklessness delays the transition from paresis to paralysis but does not prevent it. You're likely thinking of Shapeshifting Berserk.

EDIT: @Mjoll is one of the more difficult people to lock and kill because she DOES cure impatience and asthma alongside each other; she goes after the one that isn't as deeply buried and favors impatience thanks to Deathlore Purge, which she capitalizes on well. She also recognizes when a hypnosis chain tries to push berserking or loneliness over each other, and chooses to run or turtle accordingly.

She's able to survive and keep me on the ropes for an entire fight because she's one of the most frustrating people to lock thanks to how she cures, not because she plays a class with a plethora of passive heals and access to stun+limb damage for an arm cripple delay. Part of the reason I won was because I got luckier than she did with the clumsiness/dodge RNG.

Mjoll

That made me smile. Thank you @Fezzix

Fezzix

Fighting people used to be easier, because they'd try to dig out of asthma or impatience while completely ignoring the other. If someone tried curing an asthma stack, they'd cure hypochondria and clumsiness while leaving alone a naked, unbuffered impatience or vice versa.

Now people will cure whichever isn't buffered, so I can't push the lock as quickly. You'd be surprised how big a difference an extra venom in a table can make when pushing for a lock, especially since hypnosis speed is largely unpredictable and if impatience or loneliness/berserking are lost, the lock might just not happen and the fight is reset from my end.

Haven

Unless they've changed how several of these afflictions work since I've played, digging out of impatience against a Syssin should always be a lower priority than digging out of asthma because of the simple fact that asthma is the key to all the Syssin's kill conditions. Sure, if you can potentially cure both because of an ability then do so but the herb priority should be on removing asthma. Even curing paresis before it transitions into paralysis while you have an asthma stack on you is often a dangerous and a poor trade UNLESS your goal is to run away and not fight OR you're making a gamble to combo shield with rebounding via a lucky tree or ability cure of asthma to reset the fight. Just spamming shield for the sake of shield is terrible against any class with a razeslash. Using shield must have a tactical purpose otherwise you're more often than not just hurting yourself and helping the aggressor.

The log highlights why repeatedly: Mjoll cures paresis and shields (4 seconds off balance, meaning if reconstitute is up cannot use it. Also means you're not attacking/hindering. Also means you're unable to move of your own accord.) Fezzix razestabs and delivers paresis again (which means if tree comes up, it's now disabled). What makes this a terrible play is that you're STILL off balance while Fezzix recovers his and proceeds with a follow-up of two more afflictions. What is Mjoll gaining from these exchanges? The only reason she managed to break out of the venom-lock cycle the first time is because of a lucky ring tick that cured asthma. After that she shielded then changed her mind and fled altogether in order to fully heal up. Later the cycle starts up again and she isn't so lucky and is killed.

If you're curing paresis first and not running then you're only playing into the Syssin's hand of maintaining the asthma stack and getting closer to their kill condition. The exception to this scenario is if you KNOW you have tree balance back and you're willing to gamble that tree randomly cures asthma so you can smoke rebounding and shield again next round for the reset. At least then shield has a real purpose since it potentially flips the round onto the Syssin and will likely reset the fight next round when you shield again as rebounding comes up.

Example: Mjoll cures paresis + touches tree (plz 2 cure asthma) and shields. If tree cured asthma then rebounding should have been smoked. Which is phenomenal for Mjoll. The Syssin razestabs. If they razestabbed with paresis again then the Syssin hurt themselves because you've already got your use of your tree tattoo that round. If they stab with asthma whatevs; you still smoked rebounding. They dstab 2 more affs. You have balance again (reconstitute should be going off, hopefully curing something good) and shield again as rebounding comes up in unison. You've effectively reset the fight for the Syssin's offense and given yourself 4-6 seconds of recovery time. If tree randomly cured something other than asthma...well. At least you tried and still have fitness to fall back on as a Carnifex. Classes without fitness aren't so lucky and must flee, hinder or die.

Keep in mind - during all this playing defensively Fezzix is curing up and undoing anything you might have done to him to further your kill condition. And because you haven't hindered him and hypnosis is unstoppable, he's building another hypnochain for his next burst that put you on the defensive in the first place. As a Carnifex, between Deathlore Purge (I'm assuming it's like reconstitute) + delaying paralysis skill, if you prioritize the asthma stack, it means you have more time and opportunities to approach your kill condition. Especially because you have fitness to which you can fall back on if the Syssin gets too far ahead. I don't know if the Carnifex kill condition is still centered around locking but you have to ask yourself whether your offense is competitive. Because again you have until the time a Syssin snaps their fingers to be transitioning into your own mid-late game or hindering the Syssin. If you are not at that point then you're going to lose that fight.

Haven

Again I am not an active player and could very well be derping. So take what I say with a grain of salt. Going off of the log and what I remember of the game.

Toz

Syssin's kill conditions are gated behind asthma and impatience. If you have stupidity+impatience and asthma+buffer, eat broot and run/shield because you're boned curing-wise. If you only have asthma, or only impatience, while the other is stacked, dig that one.

Clum+ast+imp->eat kelp->dstab locks
Clum+ast+imp->eat gseal->no lock

Impatience is also harder to give for Syssin, since it is hypnosis-only. Since Syssin lost disrupt they're reliant on aff burst to kill you before passive curing/active curing bails you out again, so your best bet to survive against a lock/near lock condition is to stall until something procs- that's also why she shielded. Flay (1 aff at 1.86) is better than 2 affs at 2.44. Reconstitute is 1 aff removed at 20s. The APS net change of shield is in your favor if lockbreaks are down, even IF your recon is up.

Fezzix

@Haven While one hypnosis chain is ticking down, a syssin can't just start up another one. When that chain is done, THEN I can start building my momentum again.

Impatience is more important to cure over asthma against syssin because:

1) Focus cures anorexia, and only two afflictions mask that: Stupidity and Egocentric. Impatience prevents it outright. While I'm setting up for the dstab that finishes the lock, the target will be in the middle of curing paralysis or whatever affliction is buffering asthma. Upon gaining anorexia, they simply focus it away and then cure asthma and smoke to cure slickness all on the same prompt. With impatience, all I need is impatience and asthma, then I can hit you with slickness/anorexia.

Now, you might argue "Hey Fezzix, that doesn't sound too hard." It is. Without impatience, I have to stick asthma AND slickness and THEN doublestab with anorexia/stupidity (meaning they can't have rebounding up) so that stupidity absorbs the immediate focus. This setup requires more dstabs, leaving me more prone to RNG failures, passive cures, tree, reconstitute, clumsiness, rebounding, dodges, etc. It also means that if they manage to cure asthma, slickness is also cured on the same prompt. Two cures for the price of one curative balance.

You might also say, "Fezz, just load your hypno chain full of hypochondria or clumsiness or stupidity so your stabbing isn't inefficient!" In theory, that's a great idea. In practice, it's not nearly as good as using impatience because it leaves all the other good tools from hypnosis unviable and relies too heavily on favorable hypnosis tick times. Putting those in my chain means I can't utilize berserking or loneliness in any real capacity, and following up after a lockbreaker is more difficult with this approach for reasons I stated in the previous paragraph. This approach is only viable if the target never tries to flee and I'm able to keep the area darkflooded with mental_fatigue (which doubles focus recovery time) so I can hit a slickness/anorexia stab and then stab with stupidity before they ever recover focus balance.

Dstabs are slow and prone to dodging and clumsiness for good reason. Syssin have to deal with rebounding for good reason. Putting extra steps into chasing a lock makes you more likely to lose the lock or even establish one in the first place. The kill window for syssin is actually quite small, and you have to trim a lot of fat to keep it as open as you possibly can. Impatience lets me do this by removing focus from the table. I can keep berserking, loneliness, vertigo, and anorexia firmly buried and easily re-lock after the breaker this way.

2) Like @Toz said, it's harder to deliver. Cure my impatience, and I'm far less likely to get you in a lock and then re establish it after the lock breaker.


EDIT: Something I should add about hypnosis:

The utility affs are absolutely necessary against people who are good and shield/run. Loneliness, vertigo, and berserking are very useful, and going with the full decongestant(kelp) route means none of those affs will stick unless I spam stupidity dstabs to buffer the focus. Doing that means I'm not pushing for a lock at all.

You have to be picky about hypnosis afflictions. If you put too much diversity in your hypnosis chain, then the important affs for the lock are spaced too far apart and your kill condition takes too long if they manage to cure something. If, however, your chain is too simple, then it's liable to fall apart too easily.


EDIT EDIT: @Haven Something else you have to consider is that tree or erase could also cure any affliction that is buffering either impatience or asthma, then the pill balance could be used to cure either of those vital affs. The random cures are one of the bigger obstacles for syssin regardless of what route we decide to use.

Sryn

I somehow beat Benedicto. Granted he's in a class he's still working on building, but yeah.
I say 'somehow' because contrary to what Stine says, I really didn't know a whole lot of what I was doing. I have no parry or anything really setup. And my pre-restore was set literally at the start of that fight.

Stine

@Sryn You made the comment "I have no idea what I'm doing" and I replied "That's clearly not true". That doesn't mean you're the best fighter ever. I'm not implying you have everything figured out. You busted out a Luminary offense from seemingly nowhere, clearly you have some idea what you're doing, as noted in the log you posted yourself.

Emir

@Sryn Your tracking is off with Hallucinations/Discernment/Clarity blocking it. It's weird. The line saying Bene resists hallucinations comes before the line saying he gets hallucinations. Later on you track him as curing hallucinations with focus, even though he never had it.

The only other advice I comfortable giving is: Don't be so quick to Hellsight. All he had to do was eat steroid once to be able to smoke the cure. Devotion Peace gives peace/pacifism to pad soulburn/soulfire a little, even if tracking pacifism is a pita.

Edit: I've read that log like 4 times. Can someone clarify just what exactly I'm seeing? I'm 99.99% sure Bene was just straight bashed to death.

Stine

@Emir He was. He had 16% blunt resistance and didn't really do anything to stop it. We were in web and he confirmed it was straight damage. 

Benedicto

Stine said:

@Emir He was. He had 16% blunt resistance and didn't really do anything to stop it. We were in web and he confirmed it was straight damage. 

Rockin' the ol' Powerful statpack blunt malus! Yeah we were in the sparring room in Temp GH and the fight was a test run to see if his offense was working. Me trolling him with banish/web wouldn't have been overly productive.

Fezzix

@Benedicto @Keroc Delete Banish. Or make it so that you need two monks to do it to someone so you can't spam it in duels for a free reset.

Sryn

Much like when Achaea had it, I'd just leave if I got banished more than once in a duel. Waste of time; monk has so many tools to deal with momentum that it's utterly boring if banish is their goto.

@Emir What do you mean pacifism is annoying to track?

Emir

1.5s after a target gains pacifism, any attack made against them cures the affliction. There is no 3p message, so it's annoying.

Sryn

Emir said:

1.5s after a target gains pacifism, any attack made against them cures the affliction. There is no 3p message, so it's annoying.

Solo that doesn't seem like it'd be a big deal. Unless you mean after 1.5s, if someone attacks, then it fades. And not within 1.5s like I'm thinking.

Emir

Pacifism lasts until cured (focus, renew, pill, etc) or an aggressive action is made, so long as that action is made 1.5s after they initially received the affliction.

Sryn

An aggressive action against that person, I take it. Lots of different nuances to get used to compared to other games...
Also, re: Hallucinations, I didn't notice that... I also didn't have the clarity block line, anyhow... Fixed that.

eta: Just realised one of my contemplate triggers were broken, because I accidentally broke the fg() function in that trigger. Could have absolved him at 15:40:38.715 ... Fixed that, too.

Sryn

Sryn vs Jeromy (Sentinel vs Sentinel)
Open to criticism. Definitely feeling what others told me before I made the swap, with clumsiness hurting Sentinel real bad. Missing a few lines, which I've since fixed (namely Lysirine expiring, and Paresis transitioning to Paralysis, both of which made me waste attacks). There are a few times where I doubled up on affs, or did anorexia right as he cured impatience, can't do much when I'm playing with 1000 ping (don't ask why I decided to join Sect while having that high ping, I don't know).

Toz

Lethargy > vomiting, not sure why (outside of damage I guess) you would aff vomiting before most of those.

Throatcrush disables fitness, Jeromy could have broken your lock at any point because I don't see it landing, you just rush spinalcut.

Impairment is also good there, it turns off all race skills (including the endgame cure).

Don't forget about nick, either- a fast single venom aff can secure a lock on the follow up hit.

Sryn

Toz said:

Lethargy > vomiting, not sure why (outside of damage I guess) you would aff vomiting before most of those.

Throatcrush disables fitness, Jeromy could have broken your lock at any point because I don't see it landing, you just rush spinalcut.

Impairment is also good there, it turns off all race skills (including the endgame cure).

Don't forget about nick, either- a fast single venom aff can secure a lock on the follow up hit.

1) Minimal venoms, at the moment it just goes through the venoms I have. Probably should have made it use other dhuriv hits after asthma/clumsy are stuck. There's a few things I don't yet have lines for, my stuff was just as rushed setup-wise as Jeromy's was. Kind of an 'alter as you go' thing. Weaken is one of the things I'm missing lines for (I also forgot about it completely).
2) No answer for that- meant to throatcrush before the double break. Dunno why it didn't go off.
3) Only got the lines for crosscut like an hour before that fight. When I work out the best place to add it, it'll be added.
4) I did overlook that. 90s cooldown is kinda gross, but it might be workable somewhere.

Mjoll

it warms my angry little heart to see logs getting posted to the forums again.

Vyxsis

not to be curmudgeonly or say anyone's Doing It Wrong, but i'd personally find it more helpful/easier if people made their own posts/threads for their logs rather than adding them to a single thread. i'm less likely to lose and/or forget about unread ones that way.

just my imo, nbd if not agree, ymmv, etc etc etc

(p.s. i liek 2 killllll [in the game])