Some questions regarding Praenomen

Riannon

Hello, I recently switched to Praenomen. Wayfarer was fun, but I found it wasn't very much for me. I think I have Praenomen roughly worked out; here's a spar I did with Tymas (who is also working out his own offence) - I know it's gonna be difficult since I don't have any plans to buy a crown, but I like Vampire's playstyle so far regardless.

I just had a few questions:

1) Which path tends to be the preferred choice? I was leaning towards Insidiae because blood_poison seems like a brutal affliction. But I'd also heard Rituos is pretty powerful as well.

2) How long is the stun from Rituos seize, if anyone knows? As well as the stun from the 'overpower' pulse modifier for frenzy, when it fires.

and 3) The AB says nothing about it, and I couldn't seem to find any affliction related to it... What exactly does the 'upset' modifier on frenzy do? Just checking with Tymas, it seemed to give weariness when the effusion triggered? Does it have a list of afflictions it can do, or is it just an added weariness on top of everything else?

Thanks in advance.

Emir

1.) Insidae was the preferred choice since the revamp but has recently seen nerfs. Rituos was a strong second contender before those nerfs, so I would rate them pretty evenly on paper right now. I no longer have access to the class though and no one is currently using it in 1v1, so it's hard to get a good read. Phreneses is a great group spec but lacks in 1v1.


2.) Can't remember xD. The stun on seize is long enough though that you won't lose a whole lot of pressure affliction wise when you use it. The stun wears off before you regain EQ however.

3.) Upset does just that, causes the next successful proc of the effusion to give an affliction. I don't have the full list on me but I know the first 2 are weariness > vomiting. 

Riannon

Emir said:

1.) Insidae was the preferred choice since the revamp but has recently seen nerfs. Rituos was a strong second contender before those nerfs, so I would rate them pretty evenly on paper right now. I no longer have access to the class though and no one is currently using it in 1v1, so it's hard to get a good read. Phreneses is a great group spec but lacks in 1v1.


2.) Can't remember xD. The stun on seize is long enough though that you won't lose a whole lot of pressure affliction wise when you use it. The stun wears off before you regain EQ however.

3.) Upset does just that, causes the next successful proc of the effusion to give an affliction. I don't have the full list on me but I know the first 2 are weariness > vomiting. 

I shot Rhyot a message, but apparently he has some newfangled thing nobody else has access to. I dunno the details on that chaos lord thing.

Regarding 3, yeah I figured as much. Was just curious if it was weariness only, or if there was some pool it chooses from. Source's tracking doesn't seem updated for the newer vampire stuff, so I can't pull any info from there either. It's a slow process!

Can't log back in right now, so I'll just ask here as a (potentially) final question... Can you combo seize with anything? Frenzy / gash? Dwhisper? Or is it something like siphon that has to be used on its own?

Emir

It's something you use on its own.

Riannon

Damn, okay!

Generally speaking, what is the better minion mutation to use? I was just using hallucinate because it was super easy to stick, and the stun was nice (albeit not guaranteed I know).

I'm guessing paresis is better?

Emir

Kinda fight/spec dependent I guess. I almost always defaulted to paresis ent but hallucinations does have its uses, more so for Rituos I think. 

Tedrunai

Few things I noticed:

Clumsiness (xentio) is just superior to weariness (vernalius). Clumsiness is a better effect and it can't be focused, unlike weariness.

Asthma (kalmia) is the best option to slash with though if you're Insidiae. The standard thinking of using other kelps to bury asthma doesn't apply to Prae because your venom slash is so slow and you have impatience buried pretty much all the time. Basically if you're in a position to stick a venom long enough to slash again with asthma, you might as well have made that stuck venom asthma and just gone for the lock with your second attack.

Weariness worked out for you in this situation because your opponent's cure order is sub-optimal and has impatience above kelps, but you shouldn't rely on opponent error.

You are using blood poisoning too early. You want at least 2 trees stacked before unloading it, else they're most likely just going to cure out as the attack is slower.

You don't want to slash slickness (gecko) because it can be dodged/rebounded. Use Deadbreath instead, it's a guaranteed hit for slickness.

Epilepsy is just straight up better than stupidity. You should be using both, but epilepsy first for sure.

Siphon is not a great post-lock tactic, you should go for the secured lock (add confusion + disrupt). After that just keep piling on slash + whisper affs so stuff like purity necklace has less of a chance to get them out. Once you have every Mentis aff on them you can do whatever. Feed is probably the best choice to get your blood back.



Overall:

Insidiae and Rituos are both great. The offensive shell is the same (slash/whisper) but the two have very different end games. Insidiae tries to stick a big blood poison, then constantly slashes asthma until the opponent's delayed curing can't keep up before you get balance back and you can lock them. Rituos tries to bury blood confusion and a huge amount of Mentis affs before using Seize for an Annihilate kill.

Phreneses lol has niche uses.

I'm undecided about paresis vs hallucinations minion. It's probably still paresis because it/paralysis are such strong affs, but there's at least a conversation to be had with hallucinations since the stun got buffed. I guess it helps bury blood curse too for Rituos but I think confusion + dementia should accomplish that just fine.

Keroc

I would argue that at a certain point, such as after getting blood poison to full potency, you might be better off swapping to single whispers to speed up your asthma delivery.

Otherwise I concur with Ted, minus Phreneses. I think it has niche uses.

Riannon

Holy poop. Didn't expect to come back to such a huge wall of information, and from an immortal no less! I'll try to clarify a few things...

Tedrunai said:

Few things I noticed:

Clumsiness (xentio) is just superior to weariness (vernalius). Clumsiness is a better effect and it can't be focused, unlike weariness.
I was actually testing my group stuff out on him, because I messed up my solo stuff. And yeah I noticed he had impatience over weariness, so I tried sticking that to get asthma locked onto him, otherwise I definitely agree!

Asthma (kalmia) is the best option to slash with though if you're Insidiae. The standard thinking of using other kelps to bury asthma doesn't apply to Prae because your venom slash is so slow and you have impatience buried pretty much all the time. Basically if you're in a position to stick a venom long enough to slash again with asthma, you might as well have made that stuck venom asthma and just gone for the lock with your second attack.

Weariness worked out for you in this situation because your opponent's cure order is sub-optimal and has impatience above kelps, but you shouldn't rely on opponent error.
Yep to both of these! I was mostly just hoping for the best; we started out just testing things out on each other, then did an actual spar or two to see how they ACTUALLY hold up when the person's fighting back.

You are using blood poisoning too early. You want at least 2 trees stacked before unloading it, else they're most likely just going to cure out as the attack is slower.
Is blood_poison not an 'adaptive' affliction? For some reason I was under the impression that it was, that was... Basically my only reason for using it so early. If I'm mistaken, then well that's a dumb error on my part! Although I've since gone Rituos to give it a whirl; I'll keep that in mind for next time!

You don't want to slash slickness (gecko) because it can be dodged/rebounded. Use Deadbreath instead, it's a guaranteed hit for slickness.
This was another dumb error on my part, yeah. I originally had breath, but for some reason I changed it to gecko; probably some stupid error in my code that I couldn't be bothered fixing while I was tired.

Epilepsy is just straight up better than stupidity. You should be using both, but epilepsy first for sure.
I mostly just used stupidity first since it has a higher cure order than Impatience, so wanted to guarantee impatience would be stuck as early as possible... No other reason, really >.<</b>

Siphon is not a great post-lock tactic, you should go for the secured lock (add confusion + disrupt). After that just keep piling on slash + whisper affs so stuff like purity necklace has less of a chance to get them out. Once you have every Mentis aff on them you can do whatever. Feed is probably the best choice to get your blood back.
...Yet another dumb error on my part, yep. Completely in agreement here! Don't ask why I hit siphon, I really have no explanation!


Overall:

Insidiae and Rituos are both great. The offensive shell is the same (slash/whisper) but the two have very different end games. Insidiae tries to stick a big blood poison, then constantly slashes asthma until the opponent's delayed curing can't keep up before you get balance back and you can lock them. Rituos tries to bury blood confusion and a huge amount of Mentis affs before using Seize for an Annihilate kill.

Phreneses lol has niche uses.

I'm undecided about paresis vs hallucinations minion. It's probably still paresis because it/paralysis are such strong affs, but there's at least a conversation to be had with hallucinations since the stun got buffed. I guess it helps bury blood curse too for Rituos but I think confusion + dementia should accomplish that just fine.

Appreciate the flow of information, nonetheless! I know I still have to work on my own curing.

Tedrunai

Epilepsy also cures above impatience, so it's a mask just like stupidity. The order of the two doesn't really matter for that purpose since both are above impatience and that's the important part. Epilepsy's effect is far superior though since stupidity was nerfed.

Blood poison is indeed adaptive, however with the long recovery time they'll most likely be able to cure it if you only use a one-tree hit since you only have one venom to layer over it. Rough numbers but pill balance is something like 2.1, blood poison takes 3.01 seconds with +2 eq (3.26 for you without crown), so you need the poison to keep them from eating 2 pills (one for asthma one for blood poison) in that time. A one-tree delay often won't knock pill bal for long enough to accomplish this, so they get to cure both affs before you regain balance, so then you're at a net negative as far as aff pressure.

You look like you have the general gist of Praenomen down, the rest is just fine tuning really. One tip I'd offer for Rituos is to Contemplate your target before every attack since your whole shtick is based on their mana. Have your system adapt its attack method based on your opponent's mana; queueing is awesome and latency-free but can cause you to miss Annihilates since you can't Contemplate offbal/eq, so once you notice them getting near the threshold (33% or 41% with rune, usually following a Seize), switch your attacks to trigger off the Contemplate mana line instead to ensure you don't miss/fail Annihilates.

Oh and since you look like you've got a superfast weapon, damage really matters for Rituos. The best way is to have a hard-hitting weapon that matches up with your eq time and use that most of the time, while swapping to a much faster weapon if you get hit with lethargy or plodding so you don't slow down from those affs.

Riannon

Tedrunai said:

Epilepsy also cures above impatience, so it's a mask just like stupidity. The order of the two doesn't really matter for that purpose since both are above impatience and that's the important part. Epilepsy's effect is far superior though since stupidity was nerfed.
I... Honestly didn't notice this; for some reason my brain remembered the cure order being shyness>impatience>epilepsy, not shyness>epilepsy>impatience ... I'll fix that.

Blood poison is indeed adaptive, however with the long recovery time they'll most likely be able to cure it if you only use a one-tree hit since you only have one venom to layer over it. Rough numbers but pill balance is something like 2.1, blood poison takes 3.01 seconds with +2 eq (3.26 for you without crown), so you need the poison to keep them from eating 2 pills (one for asthma one for blood poison) in that time. A one-tree delay often won't knock pill bal for long enough to accomplish this, so they get to cure both affs before you regain balance, so then you're at a net negative as far as aff pressure.
Hmm, it was sticking for a decent while in that spar. But it could've just been because of sub-optimal curing; will keep this in mind if I go back to Insidiae.

You look like you have the general gist of Praenomen down, the rest is just fine tuning really. One tip I'd offer for Rituos is to Contemplate your target before every attack since your whole shtick is based on their mana. Have your system adapt its attack method based on your opponent's mana; queueing is awesome and latency-free but can cause you to miss Annihilates since you can't Contemplate offbal/eq, so once you notice them getting near the threshold (33% or 41% with rune, usually following a Seize), switch your attacks to trigger off the Contemplate mana line instead to ensure you don't miss/fail Annihilates.
I'm so used to Achaea with this; I was trying to contemplate AFTER my attacks, rather than before. That'll help a ton... Thanks! - Although not sure the 'offence off of contemplate' thing will be very good for me. Playing from NZ, I have an average of ~250 ping >.<

Oh and since you look like you've got a superfast weapon, damage really matters for Rituos. The best way is to have a hard-hitting weapon that matches up with your eq time and use that most of the time, while swapping to a much faster weapon if you get hit with lethargy or plodding so you don't slow down from those affs.
Nope! Just another thing I didn't change, since that was before I got to see what the balance was like on Mentis... I see that now that you mention it; I was using the LIGHTLY modifier for gash >.< It's usually around ~3.1 iirc. Would the physical damage minion be better than the mental one, then, now that you mention this? Or keep both to pressure both vitals? Although I think anabiotic outheals the minion...

Also I didn't have trans'd survival in this spar, likely would help a lot in surviving through his no-impatience lock. Still getting used to all the different curing times compared to Achaea.

Tedrunai

Mana damage minion is better, impatience cuts mana sip in half so you get more effective damage from mana drain. Plus a lot more people have +health sip artis than +mana sip artis.

Riannon

Yay, I got that right then!

I knew that about Impatience, at least, from Achaea and Imperian.

Thanks for all the advice! Certainly unexpected.

Tedrunai

Yup, good luck! Your stuff looks great, I didn't comment on general strategy much because you've got all that down, so everything I mentioned is just that extra 10% really. So if it seems nitpicky, it's just cause you've got the 90% down already.

Riannon

Nitpick away!

The unexpectedness is mostly from an Immortal pitching in so thoroughly! Not something I'm used to Though I'm certainly not complaining, either; it's appreciated.

Prae certainly looks fun!

Rhyot

So from my own experiences. I much prefer using Rituos over Insidiae. I enjoy the fact that with Rituos I have the ability to hide my whispers and destroy your mana usage at the same time to the point of Seize to secure a kill. Even then, if someone decides to SHIFT out of the 44% range for Annihilate, I'll typically kill them with damage because I use a 2h bastard sword for my damage.

That said, Insidiae was fun, but I pushed Insidiae into a vlock and then damage kill with sensitivity. Not the most ideal route, but it was fun and it pissed people off. Blood poison is your friend in that case. Make an affliction counter and once you've got about 5 afflictions loaded up, throw up a blood poison. In most cases, people won't cure it as asthma or impatience will be much higher priority than blood poison will be.

Minion selection, I always enjoyed the Festering mutation. Haemophilia, for most, is a low priority cure and it allows them to bleed out more without Moss tattoo helping it much. In most cases, this either secures a damage kill or someone using CLOT so much they enter into Annihilate range on their own.

Riannon

@Tedrunai Your advice definitely helped a lot, I think. Hopefully we'll both be Tekal soon, and get to do a more thorough test. Gash is hurting him quite a bit right now
@Rhyot not focusing so much on locking definitely seems to be working out better for me now, as well. I think without a crown, just pushing for annihilate as rituos is gonna be the better path for me, and keeping locks for groups instead. Maybe one day I'll be able to get one, or it'll just get removed and baked into EQ classes by default to make Toz happy.

This is pretty fun!

Riannon

Somehow I also managed to beat Cariv, Rituos vs Insidiae (him)... Wasn't expecting to fight him! He had me locked almost a few times there, but lucky shield and purify bloods. Though that was only like half the log, it was a pretty long fight.

Justus

I love vampire! I switch between the paths depending on who I am fighting personally! Some people don’t ever really cure their mana while others might have trouble handling your onslaught of afflictions due to pillar backing you up! Vampire has a amazing locking opportunity but the issue I had with it is if someone actually knows how to cure against a vampire it can be hard to achieve a lock. Luckily you don’t need a crown anymore since you have the amulet out that will give you the same benefits.

As for the stun, it’s just long enough if they don’t have a stun reduce artifact to let you pull off annihilate before they run away!