Shrine Defiling

I'm sure over the years most of us have been subject to waking up and seeing mass defiling of shrines outside of order fights, and holy wars. It really serves no IC purpose, for most orders shrine essence isn't a huge concern anymore, they have tons of it. And shrines can just be raised again right after being defiled.

The main point of it seems to be simply to annoy players, which makes it a mechanic that seems like it shouldn't be in the game. In the past I know you couldn't defile shrines unless you were engaged in a holy war, it was mechanically impossible. Something like that, or a limit to how many shrine scan be defiled each day or something, seems like something that would be good against such behavior that just annoys players and actually discourages RP and interacting to find solutions.

What are other people's thoughts on constant mass defiling of shrines outside of Order Wars and fights between orders? Maybe I'm the only one that it annoys and sees it like this, maybe some like it, maybe some would also like to see restrictions on it like other things. I just don't see the point of letting open ended mechanics like this exist that seem to exist solely to annoy players with no other purpose. That seems to discourage RP and conflict. Not even an alert on channel when it happens, so a lot of times it isn't even noticed till well after the fact.


  • EliadonEliadon Somewhere Over the Rainbow
    It is an outdated mechanic that has more or less only ever been used to grief certain segments of the playerbase on any IRE game that I have played.

    Especially nonaffiliated people defiling Gods' shrines.
  • EvalyneEvalyne A Coffin
    Unless you're in a holy war, you really shouldn't be able to defile IMO. People so often just wait around until god-knows-when in the morning and then do stuff like that to annoy people.
  • Use the order shrinewatch skill, that'll alert you for one. For two it's like any other mechanical conflict, it annoys anyone that it happens to. My main issue is that because I'm not in Chak's order I'm not supposed to get in on the fun and murder the defilers? :disappointed:

    I find that your statement of discourages RP and conflict to just be laziness. You've now got many reasons to have increased RP and interaction within the order as you make plans of counter-attack, or organize efforts to get newer members to scout the locations, find new locations, so on and so forth. Often out of conflict can come many good things if you're willing to get past the whole, those guys are being mean and I can't directly counter what they're doing.

    I'd MUCH rather hear ideas of a changed idea on it if it's so distasteful, but something other than lets remove every mechanical means of PvP conflict that isn't straight fighting PvP because we've all learned for a long time that far too few people are willing to even consider engaging in that.
  • I don't think it does motivate because it has no real consequence other than annoying players. It just takes a stupidly long time for players to repair it, but it really doesn't cost any important resources ICly, just player time. Then the massive willpower and endurance drains of raising it make it take that much longer waiting to recover or eating phoenix hearts and bull eyes. Making it take that much longer to raise than defile. The closest mechanic to it would be raiding cities to kill guards, which I'm also not a huge fun of, but there are large differences between them. Mainly it's quick and easy to replace guards now within less than a second, and there is risks in doing that built in mechanically. The guards fight back, each one is harder to kill than the next, and so on. And it's localized in one spot, not spread out defending the entire world.

    You are attacking a god, there should at the very least be build in inherent risks that aren't solely dependent on forcing a small playerbase into an RP or conflict or event they don't want to do at that particular time. I'm not against creating conflict or RP with enemy orders, but doing so in ways that aren't designed to the sole purpose of annoying players and forcing them into PVP. That will motivate more people away from PVP or to stop playing altogether.

    Add risks to it. If you don't wanna limit the number of shrines defiled in the day, have mechanical risks added to defiling. Like each shrine you defile in the same day takes longer than the last. To defile a divine essence it takes some of your own essence, and you lose experience during it, more with each shrine within a day. Add a chance for when a shrine crumbles for there to be a backlash of essence that kills you, increasing with each shrine.

    Could also make repairing it less annoying to the players. Such as recently defiled shrines can be raised much quicker than normal, or instantly if its within a certain time. All of these not applying during holy wars. I think the whole reason holy wars don't happen anymore is because people don't enjoy defiling or raising shrines as a mechanic.

    Encouraging conflict and PVP is good for a game, trying to forcefully cram it down players throats with something that's just straight annoying isn't. Nobody mass defiles for conflict, you can get conflict without it. It's done to annoy players into doing something icly, and I don't think players should be targeted, but the characters and IC things should. I'd like to discuss changes made to shrines and defiling in particular if anyone has more ideas. I don't think the current system works well at all, and does more to discourage activity than encourage it. Many seem to find it just annoying like I do. And I don't believe a good solution is keep around an annoying and griefy mechanic because we don't have enough PVP in the game. I'm for changing it to be less annoying and griefy, nothing against conflict and generating PVP.

    Limiting the number of shrines you can defile each day doesn't seem like it would kill the conflict either. Is there a difference between defiling 2, or 5, or 10, or 100. The same people that will come out and fight you for 2, will be the ones doing it for 100. Maybe even more determined at 2 since by 100 they probably as a player won't even care anymore and be fed up and done with it. So mass defiling decreases the conflict. I'm not talking about any defiling, but mass defiling. And the purpose of mass defiling doesn't increase conflict, just player annoyance and frustration.
  • Is there a reason divine disfavor isn't given for this sort of thing? I know personally I've done lots of defiling and a disfavor would've done a lot to make me stop that shit pretty quick. Losing trans skills is pretty rough when you're someone who's poking the bear looking for fights. If it was a sanctioned war thing the defiler would presumably get a favor from their own God to balance the two out. Just seems like a presently available IC solution. I'd think a Divine who has had a massive amount of their shrines and property destroyed would be upset.

    Not that other solutions couldn't also be given, I'm just curious as to why that isn't the case... kinda figured pissing off God == disfavor, but that doesn't seem to happen except in the most extreme of situations. Disfavor for 1 day is rough, but it's 1 day where you basically can fight in a group, but not by yourself kind of deal...
  • Shrine defiling causes a defile aura upon the offender which makes them pretty much Open-PK for 24 ingame (you have to be in the game for it to disappear) hours as far as I remember. Now disallowing unaffiliated people from defiling would be just an inelegant band-aid.

    This issue cannot be solved properly as long as players continue to think that PvP is forced upon people is a bad thing. That is why PvP in this game feels like not a seamlessly integrated part of the gameworld but just a sort of minigame. There is no conflict of interest among warring parties let it be religious or secular.

    DISCLAIMER: The following is a discussion of a mechanical concept, so please restrain the Aetolian Lore-Nazi inside you while reading. Also since it is a concept study and brainstorming attempt, it is not a fully-fleshed foolproof mechanic.

    In spirit of brainstorming I would propose a God-influence mechanic aided by zero-sum game mechanics. It has two parts:

    Hard Conflict: In this conflict side, every Order has a main Nexus of Power (could appear like different depending on the God and it does not have to be named as Nexus) and then linked to those Nexuses, there are nodes of power which can be conquered by another Order. Though the conflict of interest is this that these nodes are limited in number and not all Orders can reach to the peak level of influence. The influence will directly effect your shrine powers and your God's ability to give you higher favors for their followers. So yes, it is a limitation on Divine's influence upon the continent and your effort will mean something. In the case your Order reaches down under a critical node threshold or influence threshold your Nexus (possibly in the temple) can be sieged, though it cannot be a frequent occurrence. Losing the Nexus will provide a grace period for the Order while causing them to lose any Order-based advantages and could even incur penalties for the believers were not successful.

    Soft Conflict: Since a full zero-sum game would not be appealing to the all of the audience. Soft conflict has to occur. One of the finest examples was in Lithmeria, a proselytizing minigame where you could convert NPCs to your faith:

    Of course, I am not saying Aetolia should have it, just providing it as an example of Soft Conflict. Also religious politics, making RP effort to convert people to your faith, hiring guards/mercenaries for your Order and aided with non-combat influence mechanics (quests, PvE etc) you will avoid a full zero-sum game.

    Final view: The main aim is to increase cooperation among the differing playstyles and making people participate. In a gameworld where you can maintain every advantage without lifting much of a finger, you will not have any kind of action. Ylem for example is such a mechanic that you can maintain advantages easily without bothering with PvP too much. Anyways, if you wish to show the dominance of your religion; RP is not enough. PvP should be integrated and RPing people should stop seeing PvP as something forced but an integral part of the world. So the best way is to marry RP, PvP and PvE with the bond of fleshed out game mechanics.
  • EowynEowyn Somewhere
    I've been in the game since the start, 2001. You have always been able to defile shrines, regardless of Order War or not. There's never been a mechanic to straight stop you from doing it, beyond the master shrine. And frankly? It can be a great way for people, who cannot just go kill others, get involved with a conflict or to cause conflict - not just 'be annoying'.

    The last round of Chakrasul defiles (before the cease fire) were done by my character most liekly. It was her way of showing to her own order that she could 'bring the heat', and she took out..11? I think? I was kind of proud at an OOC level, since I did it within about 24 hours by myself. And although she got enemied, she never once got PK'd for it. I don't know if it's because no one was positive it was her, or people just didn't feel like bothering, but I was actually sad about it. I was trying to stir some conflict with my character, showing that she wouldn't allow corruption to be spread. Etc, etc.

    It takes a solid 20+ minutes to destroy a shrine from start to finish - that's a lot of time to spend doing something just to be 'annoying'. Plenty of opportunity for it to be stopped. Perhaps a notification is in order when one is touched or straight destroyed is in order. But, definement aura will reveal anyone who has defiled ANY shrine, which can only be a small number of people, so you can get your answer and go attack someone. The aura lasts a long time and defiling again just drags it out longer. And what for? To give an order fewer places to offer, if you just look at mechanics and not at the RP of the shrines.

    As it stands, it's as annoying as raiding. So what do you do? You check logs, you see when it's being done, and you watch (literally a shrine ability). Shrinesight, as Trikal said, as well. And, frankly, decide if less shrines in more strategic hiding spots is better. Unless, like most people want to RP, you want as much influence for your order as possible. But you can't want that and not also want to allow people to be able to destroy that influence. It's just a tad silly to think otherwise, in my mind.
  • In announce post 1456 it clearly states they disabled defiling shrines outside of holy wars. It was indeed a previous mechanic they used in the game. This isn't about any one specific time, more of an in general purpose to come up with something that's less annoying and more fun to play. And one good reason disfavors aren't handed out is the god often times doesn't even have a player when they are being targeted and can't hand out disfavors.

    And In your specific case @Eowyn yes we knew it was you. You weren't killed cause whenever we saw you around afterwards, you were always in Eno. You most assuredly would have been attacked had you been seen outside the city.

    But this isn't about one case. Kalak's idea sounds good. It doesn't matter it takes twenty minutes. It's not like cancelling a wormhole were you have to start over again if interrupted. Unless you are outnumbered, it's quite easy to defile shrines. Or get a good lead stealth defiling. I'd say it's more annoying than raiding, as raiding has built in mechanics to stop it or at least make it difficult and discourage repeated mass raiding in short terms.
  • EvalyneEvalyne A Coffin
    Tina raises an important point that I think gets glossed over - it takes a trivial amount of time to defile a shrine, especially if you're hunting already anyways. It takes an appreciable amount of time to raise shrines to replace those that have been defiled.

    Hiding in a city after defiling or taking part in anything that marks you as open PK is pretty lame, but it's pretty much expected of some people.
  • It takes 5 corpses to break the seal on a shrine, after that defiling and raising shrines take the same amount of time....

    One thing with order stuff is for some reason it's generally looked down upon, is when Templars are having a war with Chakrasul, despite defilement aura and open PK. I'm not supposed to kill them because I'm not a part of Chak's order? Does anyone actually have clarification on this because I'd have been happy to murder all you templars, but didn't want to ruin your fun when I wasn't really involved in any way other than you're technically open pk.
  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    I think the fact everyone hates it is the thing some people like about it. (I hate it too)
  • EowynEowyn Somewhere
    Tina said:

    In announce post 1456 it clearly states they disabled defiling shrines outside of holy wars.

    Ah, you know, I don't even remember that being a thing. Looks like it lasted 6 months, and I'm guessing because a lot of people were frustrated with the setup of it. Now, not to say what we have now is perfect by any means, but reading that post - I can see why they were quick to do another revamp after that revamp.

    @Trikal - You technically -could- kill people who have defilement aura just for having defilement aura. There has been a post to say that anyone with defilement aura is open to PK by anyone. But, it kind of -looks- bad right now because they have that event going on between their orgs. So, more of a 'poor taste' thing than an actual rule. But that's just in regards to the defilement aura. Eno and others are p much staying out unless it's brought to Eno directly and then it's city defense. That way, we don't have a bunch of orgs ruining the fun for those two groups just because we're all eager to PK.
  • edited March 2018
    So, first I'm going to take a moment to be proud and crow a little because lifers just got a forum thread complaining about their method of conflict and that's so completely backwards from what traditionally happens.

    Second, I'm going to try to stay as unbiased as I can manage for the rest here.

    No one has any idea what started this. I don't believe anyone who says otherwise. Some cross-over of @Rasani and @Kodaza and who knows who else - nobody was in the room where it happened though and so I'm going to describe this conflict as a neutral, organic occurrence. Which is cool! And really rare. I think more of this, not less, makes for a good game.

    That being said, this conflict suffers from a lack of rules/restrictions. When it started, Templars were declared open pk by Chak's order/Cong. Fine, sure, but we had no way to tell who was what for the longest time, meaning Rasani got jumped about a billion times in Esterport and we could only identify those people to kill after the fact without metagame. In addition, it wasn't just Chak's joining in on the fun. I also fought Spireans who hopped in at the request of people, and those mixed bags have also been showing to raids. Which is fine, in the beginning we pulled a few extra too in order to chase after raid defense. But it did make our side much harder, as we were the reactionary party only.

    This did spread further out though - Phoenecia got targeted and killed ~8 times in an hour because she wouldn't promise not to craft again, bringing more than just Chak's order to kill the person who made an item, not the one who placed it. I think Zarni, Emir, and Trikal showed at some point or other during all that ganking- and that was definitely a line crossed. I didn't care for the poster either, but that was a bridge too far for my taste.

    Further attempts at RP 'defilement' got us hexed for a RL day, obliterating our ability to fight back. Unless guilds can hex back or something, I likewise find that kind of frustrating as we were trying to get a rise out of the Order similarly to the statue left outside of Eno - but fair enough, the evolving landscape of the conflict is 'bring friends and don't touch the temple'.

    During the Feast however, Chak declared a truce **so far as I am aware** so you all could do your thing without interruption, even zapping Akara for pk/raiding during it. This meant we were on hold.

    In that time, several things happened. I started making a list of Chak members so I could 'show my work' so to speak - you can see why everyone is listed in the project. We started building up our noncomms to fighters ( @Jory is the man), and we started scouting.

    When the time ran out, and the feast ended, we waited for word the truce was over. No such word arrived, but people did start raiding again. Akara/Trikal/Fezzix etc. - which is totally fair, don't get me wrong, the world doesn't stop because the Templar are fighting someone else. But @Benedicto sent a letter to Kodaza saying, basically, 'if we are back on then we are back on'. No reply and some raids later, here we are.

    Shrines: I hate shrines. But we got some duels out of you and I'm pretty pleased with how that went. And we got some skirms after I went to bed too, but that might just be Akara doing her thing as normal.

    Raiding: I wish there was a better way to attack cities because this is almost as annoying as shrine conflict and it's harder to stop. You can stop replacing shrines, raids kind of demand a reply and you can't stop them.

    We aren't allowed to mess with your actual turf (the Temple) without getting hexed so shrines are all we got for org property.

    So, at present, the rules of engagement are, so far as I can tell: pk anyone in the Cong/Order as open PK. Templars are open PK to Chak's crew. This includes raids. Shrines are our goal and guards are Chak's and I agree shrines are the softer target but we can't touch the Temple so I'm sort of at a loss there. I'd love some more formalized stuff and some rules, but until then it's a gankfest for those orgs. What can you do?

    I'd be happy to OOC discuss terms, I'd swap raids/shrine defiling as off limits for one another of you find that as annoying as I'm sure Eno finds the raids, we can schedule brawls or I can send Templars out to get jumped if you do the same, I'll swap org list for org list and we can grief until Raz says stop, whatever works for me. I do have limited play time though, and so I'm only going to stir up when I have time OOC to- I know it was frustrating to be the only one really defending and losing duels @Tina because I've been there lots before. It wasn't an attempt to sneak anything by, and I did stay up later than I wanted to get beat up by Akara/Quil some as well. Hopefully next time the fighting goes there are more of both sides on.

    Finally, as for those not directly involved: I appreciate you staying out. This is, so far as I know, one of the first time in a long time and lifer org is going toe to toe with a darkie one in sustained direct conflict in a long while and this is pretty important for both sides. I made a post and Bene made a post telling  others to butt out and we appreciate you all doing the same (outside of raids because again, what can you do?) - in the absence of a codified conflict system, player restraint is about all we got. I have no illusions about it, darkies could absolutely out pk and out last us atm. I'm working on it, and plenty of others are, so that you all will have a stronger enemy to rage against soon as a whole.
  • BenedictoBenedicto Tentacles Errywhere!
    edited March 2018
    I can't agree enough with @Cole. I do also want to offer my appreciation for the restraint that people have shown from both sides of the game. It has been all a bit "touchy feely" as I don't feel that neither side really knows what the end goal is. However, let me, as the primary instigator of this complained about course of action, offer our side of things, or at least the context behind what's happening. I appreciate that the whole point of this thread is not specifically directed at this event in particular, but rather the mechanic of defiling itself.

    I am on the same standing as @Cole, @Trikal and @Eowyn. The Templar were effectively forced into a ceasefire whilst the Festival of Avarice was going on, and truth tell, I don't think we were overly fussed about starting things back up without prompting.

    However, over the course of the last week, Enorian and the Templar have been subject to constant raids by two of Chak's Congregation members, Akara and Sarisa. Sarisa is a former Templar who betrayed them to follow Akara to Corruption. So things are a bit personal there.

    It has been their incessant raiding, more than anything, that's prompted a retaliation of this nature. Rather than escalate things where it ends up being two cities engaged in constant 'tit for tat' raiding, this was the best warning that could be thought of without starting to hunt Order members in response. A letter was sent to @Kodaza and I spent quite a while engaged in discourse with @Tina where Bene offered her, several times, to find another solution. Instead threats were exchanged, she attempted to run solo at each of the Templar defilers and lost repeatedly.

    It is an annoying mechanic, yes. I agree. But it was the lesser of two evils in a game where repercussions are few and far between, there is a lack of conflict mechanics and trying to deal with the two individuals in question who keep raiding won't really have any effect. Therefore, trying to create a more meaningful consequence by forcing Chak's Order to a point where they tell them to stop is the goal.
  • PhoeneciaPhoenecia The Merchant of Esterport Somewhere in Attica
    Just going to chime in a bit here as someone that's been tangentially involved in the current goings on and kind of been watching from the sidelines.

    Is shrine defiling annoying and horrible for everyone involved? Yes. It sucks. But at the same time, it's the only way of striking at a god or their followers short of PKing them into the ground. It's up there on the same level as raiding cities over and over (which certain people do and have been doing over and over incessantly). In many cases, it really just ends up coming off like the person/people doing it are just enjoying being jerks for the hell of it. Especially so when it's done so often or when there's no one around who can retaliate. And when retaliation does happen, it's not exactly fun either, and often ends up turning into an endless cycle, and when no one wants to give in, where do you go from there? Guards can be replaced easily enough, and shrines raised. With no clear goals, endgame, or rewards, what do you end up getting out of it?

    In regards to defiling in general, it was asked not long ago about whether PKing people who defiled shrines was strictly the responsibility of the order (due to past precedent). The official answer: if someone has been defiling, ANYONE can kill them.

    With the stuff that's been going on in this Chak war, though, there's been insistence that it remains between Chak's order and the Templars, and outside of a few instances where that hasn't happened, outsiders have largely stayed out of it. 

    But then there come the gray areas. Akara and Sarisa raiding Enorian constantly? Sure. That could be related to the Chak war. But because they're raiding Enorian, that opens them up to being open PK by anyone from Enorian. 

    And then those same two go and raid Duiran, opening them up to PK from Duiran.

    And then Tina threatening to defile Slyphe shrines in retaliation to Templars defiling Chak shrines.

    The conflict has largely been well contained. For now. But it can easily turn into a dogpile very quickly.  If a conflict is supposed to be restricted to be between two orgs, there has to be effort on both sides to keep it confined as there aren't any strict rules like there are between two warring orders.
  • ZailaZaila Pacific Time
    The only way in which I've seen shrine defiling "discourage PK and conflict" is by players oocly complaining about it instead of actually doing something about it ICly. You might try to do something about it and get your rear handed to you, but that just means you lost, not that the other guys are doing anything wrong. Someone has to lose, that's how conflicts work.

    It would certainly be nice to see some other avenues for players to engage in God-related conflict other than a boring-for-both-sides "sit and wait" shrine defilement system. But in the lack of another present option, (as many people have pointed out) this both generates a lot of RP and PK avenues ("Hey guys, lets band together and fix the shrines/defile theirs back/go kick their butts, those jerks!")

    In a game like aetolia where combat and mechanics are focused on so heavily in terms of development, AND in terms of guild and city design (it's all about how we are supposed to be wanting to eradicate each other from existence!) but there are really no impactful combat-related consequences you can deliver to anyone. Annoying others into submission is ultimately the only feasible tactic left for any sort of mechanical-based opposition. It's frustrating that it is the only thing left in aetolia that can make an impact, but I think it is an entirely reasonable and supportable tactic with the current options in play.

    Especially considering that the other option is just PKing everyone into the ground - and people complain about THAT a thousand times louder than they do shrine defiling.
  • This discussion wasn't about the current conflict, or to spread misinformation about it. Slyphe's shrines also were not threatened, they were posed as an example of how escalation works in these things. If people want to discuss the current conflict either side, more than happy to web and do so, but this is to discuss the mechanics of defiling, in specific mass defiling from people not affiliated with an order fight. It's something that has no mechanics or rules, and is left entirely to the players to govern. Which we have seen time and again just doesn't work. Players will always take it too far when there is no endgame or check. The point was to propose new mechanics or rules to help with it, to make it less annoying and griefing. Changes to make the conflict more fun and entertaining. Or to voice support for the way the system currently works.
  • SeirSeir Seein' All the Things Getting high off your emotion
    Holy Wars are always one-sided conflicts. There has very rarely ever been an instance of one Order declaring an evenly matched Holy War. It has always been used as a means for larger Orders to throw weight around and harass smaller ones.
  • After now having defiled a few shrines after all these curses and such. I applaud the templar guild for the commitment and work it must've taken to raze all of Chakrasul's shrines to the ground. This shit takes a long time, and even more so if even one person shows up to harass you. That's well done, and whoever it was that started it and got everyone on board did a good job of leading the guild into some activity and conflict within the game.
  • I like defiling. I can do it on hotel wifi when I can't PK well until I get home.
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