The Imperial Dominion of the Consanguine

Macavity

I am not sure if this the correct location for this or if there is already something started on this subject, but I want to express my thoughts on the Dominion and see where everyone else stands in this.

I really like the concept and idea behind the Dominion and there is a TON of potential here, however there comes a problem with this system:

1) currently in order to change Primus you need 4/5 votes from the Blood Council, this presents a problem as if two characters decided to, they can hold the Dominion hostage and not allow any new Primus to take over. Currently this is what we are seeing, two members of the Blood Council are holding up the process, a process mind you that has not been written down and only been verbally communicated, which can change based on who remembers what. From my observation it seems that certain House leaders are afraid that if a new Primus comes up and does not like them or what they are doing within the Dominion or their Houses then they will be replaced, as the Primus has that power. It seems that people are so afraid to lose power that they would rather hold back an organization just to keep it. It seems they are not willing to work with anyone to relieve this stress that is causing all of us, and no one seems to want to step up and do anything.

2) There is so much within the Dominion that is undone or not finished, in terms of scrolls like DHELP or other basic group set up. In case someone people do not know the ENTIRE Blood Council has access to change and update DHELP, yet no one seems to want to step up and do it. I have heard that the current Primus said not to touch them and he will do it, however it is very clear he is not. So why is the Blood Council just sitting and waiting for someone else to do it or tell them to do it? Clearly if the Primus is not waking then someone needs to step up and do it. If anything just post your own House's information. There is also a commercial prospect to think to this and not just RP, consider this: Let's say you are a brand new player never hearing about Aetolia ever and read about Vampires and the Dominion, then decide you want to take a look and see what it is about. You log in choose the Vampire class and then get placed in Bloodloch and the Dominion. You are greeted by Bloodloch and told what to do, however no one greets you in the Dominion. Ok cool you got things to do in Bloodloch to get out of Novicehood, so you finish that and then you start to look further into the Dominion and see what that is about, you are told about CHELP so think there is a DHELP and find it. Then you start to see that the scrolls there do not work. You wonder if it is something you are doing wrong, or if the game might be broken in this aspect. You try but keep failing, then you speak on DT and someone finally helps you and may even express that DHELP does not work or is not fully created. Your image of this game begins to tarnish because of the lack of things setup. Do you see my point here?

3) I believe the Houses, in their first conceptions, has run their course and is now over. I really think they should be destroyed in a glorious battle and either leave the Dominion completely in their place or dissolve the Dominion altogether and leave the Consanguine as a Race like the Lycans. The Vampire class is a race all in itself anyways and no other race in the land has a central organization like we do. The issue will be with the Blood Lines and how that would work. I am sure someone more created than I can come up with a solution for that.


The point here is that we need solutions and actions to help bring this group to a functional level, as of right now we have sisters fighting with themselves and is holding back the group in itself. I really wish you all would see that you are making this much harder than it really needs to be. I would like to see solutions presented to the Admins so they may get an idea on where we want to go as a player base.

WIth that here are a few of my suggestions for Solutions:

1) Instead of the 4/5 votes drop it down to 3/5 vote, that way the majority of the Council will be picking a Primus and make it harder for one character to band with another character to hold the Dominion hostage.

1.a) Another idea, create a new system in voting..... When a call for a new Primus is needed, allow any member of the Blood Council to put forth a name and this will start a Referendum for all to vote on, however this will work differently than current elections. When a Blood Council puts forth a name then it will go to all the Houses individually and an election process will start within that House, to vote on the new Primus. The winner of that election from that House gets 1 single vote within the Dominion, those that get 4 vote, in other words win 4 elections from 4 different Houses, will then rise to the power of Primus. This can also be set up where it takes 2 Blood Council Members to confirm the election so that it does not start right away with one person being presented. Also there should be an election started within the DOminion to track the votes from each House. For example....

Nebre'seir puts up a name to the Dominion, this starts the setup to send an election to each of the Houses, and also in the Dominion. The other Blood Council members have a chance now to add their choices to the election as well. After that it will take two or three Blood Council members to approve the election and kick off the system. Once this is done others can be added if they wish, but the elections have started within each House. Once a House election has ended, it will send the person with the most votes name up into the Election within the Dominion. This will show their persons name and the House that has voted for them. Once all 5 houses have completed their elections the Dominion election will show which houses supported which candidate, and if that candidate has gained either 3/5 or 4/5 houses approval, then they will raise to Primus.

2) Create further positions within the Dominion that have the powers to create edit and/or delete scrolls within the Dominion. If the Blood Council does not wish to do it then have others do it. Can also build in a system where the Blood Council has to approve the scroll before it goes live? maybe? Just something to move this along.

3) Delete Houses. sorry not sorry.





So there are my thoughts, what do you all say in this matter? Admin?

Macavity

@Tiur I hope to hear your thoughts on this.

Haven

I may have misunderstood you @Macavity so please correct me if I'm wrong but I think you're looking at this the wrong way. This issue of leadership preventing progress sounds like it could be completely resolved in game.

If the leadership is holding the system hostage, regardless of the reason, do not forget that they can always be replaced. By design, they only hold the power because they either have key support from the population or the population doesn't care enough yet to do something. The means for change is readily available to everyone via contest.

If no one else is stepping up to address/fix a problem, first ask yourself (or your character) how much do you really care about the issue? Next, how can YOU fix the problem? If you cannot, then the task is to search for someone who can. Once you answer those two questions, the next task at hand is to take initiative and start campaigning. Join the political process, rile the people up, and play to your strengths.

If you fail, it's part of the fun of politics learning how to do better for next time. If the players are clearly cheating/breaking game rules then that's different and I'd recommend filing an issue.

Otherwise the way things are is likely something the characters/players don't actually mind. At that point you'll either have to wait til people care enough or find a way to better convince others to see your viewpoint and join you or leave for someplace where you'd be happier and more successful.

Rhyot

@Haven You're forgetting a lot of the problems that are inherent within the House system. A couple of Houses have the leadership/entire House stacked and swayed against anyone new going up. I know a very specific case of people being kicked out of a House for attempting or speaking of contesting leadership and I know of a specific case where someone complains enough and they get handed back HL. That's an inherent problem in itself and is not easily rectified because the players in power don't want to lose that power. But this problem cannot be fixed by admins because it can be handled IG by the players, so any issue (even if players did send them up) would get dismissed. Not only that, but the Houses make laws to where most House leadership is designed to NOT be done through a contest and is more of a passing down. The HL will appoint a second in line, and when the HL decides they no longer want to be HL, the contest is formed by the second in line contesting and then winning because the current HL said "This is who is going to lead you next" and then suddenly everyone just bends the knee and accepts the fate because "It's tradition and has always been this way."

Now, the 4/5s vote would actually be a good method if it were actually utilized the way it was meant to be utilized, but it isn't because we have to factor in human emotions. That said... currently, 2 of the 5 Houses want control of the Primus seat through inadvertent measures because they want someone who they can bend toward their own agenda, sympathize with, won't really cause any fuss, or is someone they can control. For some reason, the Blood Council isn't looking at it from a "What's best for the Dominion" standpoint and more of a "What's best for me" standpoint. But again, this is human emotion and the perception of control.

Tiur

I have a headache, so instead of my usual verbose ramblings...

I think the 4/5ths vote can work as soon as players MAKE it work. I do not want it to feel like a democracy; the Primus is extremely powerful. I MIGHT be tempted to make it more like a Roman Dictator, but that would have to wait on a war system.

If anything, I think this will fix itself when Trager falls from the list, and the generations start ticking down. Consider this: The House problem would be fixed if no one could have childer, because there would be no structure anymore. Essentially, the punishment for not working this out is the House system being destroyed.

Haven

Rhyot said:

@Haven You're forgetting a lot of the problems that are inherent within the House system. A couple of Houses have the leadership/entire House stacked and swayed against anyone new going up.

@Rhyot To be fair, that is a player established power structure, not a game/admin mandated rule. An in-game problem with an in-game solution. Players that wish to change the status quo must either in turn play politics to swing into power or bring in their own stacked crew to coup the current regime. Easier said than done, I know, but the means are there.

Rhyot said:

...I know a very specific case of people being kicked out of a House for attempting or speaking of contesting leadership...

Hmm, assuming there's no other details to that instance... Unless things have changed and Houses adhere to different game rules than Guilds, I'm nearly 100% positive that someone committed an issueable offense and broke a rule there. You aren't allowed to oust someone just for contesting.

Rhyot said:

...I know of a specific case where someone complains enough and they get handed back HL. That's an inherent problem in itself and is not easily rectified because the players in power don't want to lose that power. But this problem cannot be fixed by admins because it can be handled IG by the players, so any issue (even if players did send them up) would get dismissed. Not only that, but the Houses make laws to where most House leadership is designed to NOT be done through a contest and is more of a passing down. The HL will appoint a second in line, and when the HL decides they no longer want to be HL, the contest is formed by the second in line contesting and then winning because the current HL said "This is who is going to lead you next" and then suddenly everyone just bends the knee and accepts the fate because "It's tradition and has always been this way."

Again - to be fair, that's a player established power structure and not a game rule. If the players/characters of that house wish to change how things are done then it's a matter of garnering enough key support to win the game provided CONTEST command + 10k gold if that's still a thing. Then once they're in power, they too can set up whatever power structure they want (HELP LEADERS). If other players choose to abide by, follow and enforce those policies then... it's what the people want. Does it suck if you're in the minority? Sometimes but that's the name of the game for politics. Influence = Power.

Rhyot said:

Now, the 4/5s vote would actually be a good method if it were actually utilized the way it was meant to be utilized, but it isn't because we have to factor in human emotions. That said... currently, 2 of the 5 Houses want control of the Primus seat through inadvertent measures because they want someone who they can bend toward their own agenda, sympathize with, won't really cause any fuss, or is someone they can control. For some reason, the Blood Council isn't looking at it from a "What's best for the Dominion" standpoint and more of a "What's best for me" standpoint. But again, this is human emotion and the perception of control.

Honestly? What you described there is just roleplay. Whether it's legitimate roleplay or not... I mean it's hard to really say because it's both subjective and I don't know the OOC/IC motivations of the players/characters conducting those actions. The system isn't broken. It's the leaders choosing to act that way for whatever reason. The rest of the characters/players/underlings/whatever have a choice to make at this point:

1. Support the leaders / Do nothing to change
2. Reject the policy / Enact change with the means available

That's what it really comes down to honestly. The exception to all this, I think, would be what happened in Duiran a while back with the metagaming and toxic behavior where Admin felt they had to intervene for the sake of the game's health. Don't know much of the specific details there but that's the gist of it from what I was told.

Kalak

Actually the political system is fun and dandy from consequence standpoint, people trying so hard to tighten their grip on their chair to the point which can be detrimental to the state of the organization on the whole. But that is also the weakness of the organizations when the admin tries so hard to make them appealing. They are not appealing, really. When an organization is led towards stagnation because their leaders and vocal members want everything calm and as boring as possible...there is not much you can do. And it is really not appealing to go from organization to organization since there are costs associated with that also; social and material. And if your RP is restrictive, you are stranded with less and less options. A manageable cost, nonetheless for some. Unsure if it is for all.

Regardless this situation is an IRE-staple. You could be punished on organizational level by players for one reason or another (and sometimes, no substantial reason even) and it will be seen totally fine. You should get back to them, through the mechanics of the organization or from outside the organization via RP and PvP. That could make a fine conflict and story in the end, who knows.

Haven

@Kalak I agree with you to a certain extent. However, I don't believe the players stabilizing their environment to be calm do so with the intention of making things "boring". Nor do I believe the stance spells doom for IRE or the game.

Experience has shown that more often than not the players usually are looking out for their fellow base. It's a style/preference thing usually to take a predominantly reactionary stance. Which is within their right.

While it is true the side effect can be that it shifts initiation to an outside group (other cities or the administration), it is all part of the cycle. Ideologies naturally rise and fall with the times as people go about their business. That's what's cool about politics and story development.

Kalak

Calm and boring is the "end result" accumulating over time not the intentional result. And I did not mention doom for IRE or the game at all.

By experience I can say people can keep you out of an organization for RL years, they can keep leadership for RL years and they can truly just look out for their fellows for RL years.

I am not saying this current system is unfun or something. Just saying that it really does not mesh well with "encouraging organizations" policy. I have seen organizations which were teeming with people under leadership offering proper channels to advance/participate and often seen them shrink massively when given to a person who cling to the chair persistently by "looking out for their fellow base". Because the effort goes for maintaining status quo and power rather then making the organization fun for everyone. They refuse to expand and create tools that encompasses everyone. Though again I will state, it is a natural consequence of politics.

The show must go on and will go on regardless of what happens.

Rijetta

Plenty of politics happening behind the scenes, it's not just stalling. The 4/5 vote is clearly designed to create these kinds of backstabby artisocratic vampire politics, and it's working. I don't think it's people being afraid of losing power. I think it's more, people afraid to give someone as much power as the Primus has without some pretty serious consideration behind the choice.

I do agree with being able to move privs around the Blood Ranks/create Dominion Positions. That'd be nice, because there are some folks who are lower on the ladder but have more time/initiative and would happily help out with scrolls and other clerical things.

Tiur

@Rijetta I could be persuaded to move some powers around... by the Primus

Kelliara

Tiur said:

@Rijetta I could be persuaded to move some powers around... by the Primus

The true hierarchy of power reveals itself.

Rijetta

Tiur said:

@Rijetta I could be persuaded to move some powers around... by the Primus

@Tiur I'm working on it! I don't know which winky face-worthy thing you were hinting at, but I'm working on both of them.

Erzsebet

The problem with the Dominion is not the Houses, the problem with the Dominion is that while everyone ICly likes and approves of the general concept of Consanguinic Unity, only one or two people per House actually try to reach across that divide. You have to piss the members of the dominion off to get any kind of fire or response from them.

Re: 4/5 vote. The biggest problem with this, is that currently Sarita's player is out of town, so she won't be back for a couple days, and it's impossible to get 4/4 of those who are awake to agree. One Empress of those four will only support herself, which she cannot do mechanically. Two are each formally supporting a person. Sarita did not choose before she left, though she did make it clear who of the options given she would not support. The problem is that of the options, literally every one has at minimum two people who won't support them. The real problem, is that we don't have a pool of leaders large enough to support five Council members and a Primus that all five of those council members will support.

Re: Undone and unfinished. Frankly, Trager's scrolls are an eyebleeding mess. We have no idea what he wanted to put in them, and frankly, most of them are unnecessary on top of blinding. I'm not saying this isn't something that needs to be addressed, but honestly, we have more important things to worry about just now, with all the political stress and headaches that come with having to not only make this decision but make it on a time frame. Particularly when we don't know exactly when the blood will start falling and no one seems to be willing to answer the question.

Re: The Houses. The Houses are the only thing that makes Vampires fun. I -hate- the Dominion with a passion. It's nothing but headaches, and a rehash of an idea that has failed three times already. Imperium, Imperium 2, and Gens Sanguinis ALL went the Consanguinic Unity route. There isn't enough substance there to base an organization around, and bluntly, the people who are IN the Dominion all chose to join different organizations for a reason. We're too different to coexist peacefully, or even with any meaningful conflict. To get you to offer viable in-game solutions--well, when we figure that out, I'll let you know.

Primus should not be, and is not a popularity contest. I strongly disagree with putting it to an organization-wide vote. Especially because we're choosing someone to not only be the ruler of our Organization, but also to be our individual Sire, which for those Empresses who RP is not something to consider lightly. Obviously, personal sacrifices may need to be made therein for the good of the organization, but frankly, I feel like because it IS partially choosing our personal Sire, only the five of us should have any say.

Re: @Rhyot Not sure which 2 of 5 you think are trying to control the Primus seat, but partially this is stalling because Sarita is out of state and not able to log in just now. Every candidate offered has, at minimum two Empresses (different ones, in most cases) stating 'No, I will not support X, because Y'.

@Tiur So what you're saying, is the punishment for not working this out is essentially the entire Vampire side--the self-stated biggest draw to Aetolia, having to Quit (at minimum) class/orgs because the entire point of the class is fucked? I think that's a bit extreme. Correct me if I'm misreading that though.

Frankly I think the underlying problem here is the Dominion itself and its concept, not the Houses that comprise it.

Aishia

I gotta say just from my OWN time as a house leader, I always sort of implicitly felt like the Imperium was trying to undercut my OWN power base any time it tried to exert its power. It was so many years ago now I'm not ashamed to admit my first inclination was to stifle/marginalize it.

Erzsebet

I feel like they did at least fix that, by making the leadership base the leaders of the Houses and by making the Primus neutral/part of all houses.

It feels more like the Dominion is the parent org, and each House more similar to the Paths the Bloodborn used to have.

The problem--and the reason I think they should nuke the Dominion entirely, is that very few people are willing to work towards the stated goal, and an overarching goal besides 'exist' doesn't really make sense for what is essentially an entire race of people. We're not held together by collective ideals--in Houses yes, but not in the Dominion. Unity is not a strong enough ideal or goal to bind us.

Incidentally, at all the people complaining about the 4/5 situation IC--you're totally allowed to bring that up ICly. This is not really something that needed to be brought to forums when it can be addressed ICly.

Macavity

I agree the Dominion does not have anything to work towards, there is no bonus or positive reasons for the houses to work together at this point in time. Perhaps if we had a common enemy that must be dealt with collectively by each house doing their parts or something maybe that would help?

It would be interesting if the lifer side had something to balance the Dominion, like a group of Vampire Hunters, sworn to rid the realm of our kind, those who would stop at nothing to kill us. Or some sort of power grab between the two groups.

As for the bonuses I mentioned here, I realize the Primus and all of us have options to sort of blood bless our lines and what not, but thus far I have not seen that happen at all. I was actually looking forward to the Primus using that power for all of us, something I am still waiting for, to be honest. Would be a nice RP where all the houses go out and kill to bring blood back to Him/Her and then they bless us for it and feed on the blood.

As for the 4/5 vote being brought up here vs ICly, I believe someone did try to do just that or try to bring up issues with the Dominion and was quickly removed by the Primus. Although he is not around now, perhaps this is a better time.

Macavity

also it is possible that the player base is just simply in too many organizations to begin with?

I mean we have City, House, Dominion, Guild, Order and some Clans...... that is a lot to put your focus on. What if there was a restriction on some of these for us to belong to? Maybe then that would force us to interact a little more? Maybe?

Just a thought at this point. I really like the Vampire class and what it has to offer, just really want to make something work.

Erzsebet

Fun fact! Individual Empresses have some of those kinds of powers over their own line, too! So Ellenia could shinybuff Nebre'seir, and so on and so forth. Trager used them a lot when he was playing.

Frankly, the common enemy thing is only fun for so long, and then we would need a purpose again. It's hard to take a hardline anti-light stance, because from an RP perspective, we don't -want- to destroy the light, because that's our food source. Subjugate maybe, but there's no way to really do that without making the game unfun for the other side.

The person you're referring to did not bring up issues with the Dominion, they brought up issues with they themselves not being elected Primus. Big difference. I can't speak for the other Empresses, but in general, everything I've made vague reference (vague to avoid potential metagame issues and flamewars) to here can definitely be discovered in-game, and in more detail, dependent upon how you choose to go about it. RP, ftw.

Haven

Pride is a helluva drug.

Rhyot

Erzsebet said:

Re: @Rhyot Not sure which 2 of 5 you think are trying to control the Primus seat, but partially this is stalling because Sarita is out of state and not able to log in just now. Every candidate offered has, at minimum two Empresses (different ones, in most cases) stating 'No, I will not support X, because Y'.

The two Houses in which I'm referring to is Ve'kahi and Bouchard. Ve'kahi refuses to accept ANYONE else but Eliser because they can control him. Names have been sent forward and still Ve'kahi refuses anyone else. Hell, even new names were sent forward but because the Council doesn't like these people they get shat on for no other reason than "I don't like you." And even more, a few people have asked a few of the Council members, "Why was this person not selected as a candidate?" and their response is (essentially), "Because the Blood Council doesn't like them."

Bouchard will only vote Cariv, because Cariv and Neoma have a close relationship and she possibly believes that she could gain more favor for her House if Cariv was Primus. Likewise, Bouchard refuses to accept ANYONE else but Cariv for this precise reason.


Yes, each candidate has two empresses supporting them and I'd be willing to bet that the other Houses are essentially saying "Don't you vote for this person because we don't want them as our Primus." And much like electoral college votes, the Empress won't vote against their House because it means we now have a reason to replace them.

So it's not so much that there is a lack of people available to step up to the position. This is DEFINITELY a popularity contest. To think that it's not is very much so a bullshit statement.

Trager

I feel like I can chime into this conversation and maybe give some feedback on the pros/cons of the Dominion as I see/saw them.

Firstly, the Imperial Dominion should 100% be a dictatorship. Without a doubt. ICly when we were laying down the Dominion foundations, I pursued a sort of partnership that I came to regret incredibly. When it came to making decisions for the entirety of the Dominion, it was very often met with resistance based around one sole idea: Houses losing a bit of their power.

Now, you may say something like, "Well sure, Trager, of course House Leaders need to defend the rights of their Houses!" You'd be correct, of a sorts. The problem with that comes when you try and consider the actual use/role of the Dominion given its reincarnation. I personally feel like it should have been spread farther and wider that with the Dominion revamp, HOUSES ALMOST DIDN'T MAKE THE CUT. They were made to be the palest shadow to what they were previously, removing a good deal of their privs/abilities, leaving only clan-like roleplaying group for like-minded folk. I think that for MOST of my tenure, and please don't feel insulted HL's, that this idea wasn't understood or simply ignored. It didn't happen all the time, or from every HL at every step, but it happened a fair bit.

So, that was my first failing, in trying to ensure everyone was happy. In hindsight, though, I wasn't making sure everyone was happy. I was making sure the HL's were happy. Give me a break, I didn't want to be fired. Who does, when stepping into such a monumental role. Don't assume I did it for the name and title and prestige (what prestige, ha!) alone, because I wholeheartedly went into the role trying to do my very best for all of the ickle vampires around.

My second failing came from giving all of the HL's feedback ability. Starting from the beginning, I did not publish nor post a single change/outcome/decision without a majority HL approval. At first, it worked. Everything was shiny, new, exciting. All the HL's wanted to be a part of it and provide input. Then it wasn't so shiny, and it was outright work, I imagine. So I stopped getting responses. I wasn't getting approvals but from one, maybe two HL's on a regular basis. (Shoutout to @Erzsebet for being on your game with that.) So there would be DAYS without any changes. My google doc still has entire help files made up, written, coded, etc that are fully ready to copy/paste into Aetolia. But I wasn't getting any feedback. (Interjection: Yes, my files were eye-bleedy as said earlier. It was my first time working with colors, and I'm sorry. I think the writings themselves were solid enough, but the colors, god.)

What really started to turn me off from wanting to do a SINGLE damn thing, was when I decided, 'Screw it, we're doing it anyway' and copping attitude or unrest from some of the previously quiet HL's. Like, you didn't want a say to begin with, but now you're upset I did it anyway? GTFO. But that's a separate tangent altogether, and again, one of my own failings in how we cemented the rule in the Dominion.

We'll call a spade a spade and say: I burnt out. It was a damn hassle. Not the workload, because I honestly enjoyed that bit of it. It was something I could do alone, listening to music, chattering with my woman, whatever. But it was the struggle that killed me in the end. If I had to say what I thought would be the single most beneficial move going forward with the Dominion, it would be the absolute removal of all the Houses. Treat the Dominion like a GUILD. SECRETARIES. PATHS. GUILDLEADER. But that's just my own opinion.

Tldr: I'm sorry if I let some of you all down in bailing at this point. I had a lot of RL stuff get into my way in dealing with Visa's and immigration statuses, and paired with the struggle I felt I was receiving in-game, I decided to go watch movie with my lady than log in.

Also, delete Houses. It'll make the next Primus' job infinitely easier and less head-achy.


EDIT: That may all read really sulky, or petulant, but I just want to add in that I made plenty of mistakes myself. I went in pretty bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and should have initially given more consideration to the magnitude of what the Houses were losing in all. But, hindsight is 20/20.

Macavity

My biggest complaint about the Dominion is the way the setup process has gone with it. I do not know how much the coders helped with the transition from the old Imperium to the new Dominion, but in the first week or so of it being given to the players, the Primus and Council should have came together and got it setup, or at the very least assigned stuff out to each House to create and post to the Dominion.

Right now, and excuse me if this is metagaming, the Blood Council is stuck waiting for the Primus to come back and give out orders, because he stated do nothing the primus will do it all. This is what I have been told. So even though the Blood Council has the power to create, edit and delete DHELP stuff, they do not.

Yes the Dominion should be a Dictatorship that is what the Blood is really about, being a slave to your Sire and having someone to answer to and take orders should they call them out. However at the same time in any organization you need to empower those below you to get things done if you step away.

I am not sure how others run their stuff but when I run something, I am always thinking what happens if I leave, or the person down the road in my position leaves, what fail safes do I have in place to insure the group can still function without me. This also helps if I get burnt out I can just step away knowing I put in what I think is the best and if they want to change it then so be it.

I get being burnt out, lord knows I have left the game for years at a time and came back, like I have now.


But at the same time, and I am sorry to play devils advocate here, but what did you expect stepping into this role? The first ever Primus in charge of a group that expands for I say about half if not more of the player base population itself. And they become an Overlord of BLoodloch at the same time. If the person does not have leadership roles they can draw from then it is going to be a very overwhelming role to play and it will feel much like you are just gasping for air. I sometimes feel that the Primus was released to be a player a bit too early, and should have stayed Pools controlled till the Dominion was set up better, but on the other hand, it was interesting to see the player base attempt to create something of our own.

I just wish something would give at this point, as I see the Imperion for its full potential and do not want to see it go the way of the past what.....3 Imperiums??


dont mind me just frustrated

Macavity

well that was certainly a plot twist just now! I wonder what will happen next?!!

totally going to get exciting now!

Erzsebet

@Rhyot Two points, though I'm probably speaking to a wall to say them. One: Eliser is swayed by logic and data, he is not tractable. He IS competent, so Erz is totally cool with not being able to control him. Two. He is not the ONLY person I'm willing to support, he is merely the only person of those currently OFFERED I am willing to support for a wide variety of IC reasons.

Can't speak to the other Empresses, but personal dislike is not the source of my reasons for opposing those I have rejected as options.

Each candidate does NOT have two supporting them. Each formally has one, and one or two who haven't stated either way. Eliser has two. And then each has at minimum two AGAINST. Apologies if that was unclear.

It's not a popularity contest. If I thought Cariv was the best choice for it, I'd support Cariv, even though he's not my favourite person. Last go 'round, Aecian was the candidate from my House, and he's cool, I like him, I didn't really know Trager all that well, except for him murdering my face from some previous event and taunting me like a Brat when Erz was freaking out about the Bloodlines being ashambles. Just because you don't see the RP that goes into these choices doesn't mean it's not there, is my point.

Not that anyone is likely to believe me, but I'd rather keep Eliser in Ve'kahi and out of the politics because that means more RP time for me and also less work for me. I pawn off a ridiculous amount of work on him that I'll have to do myself if he's Primus because he'll be doing Dominion work, not Ve'kahi work. >.>

@Trager --Not trying to pick at the statement but I don't recall objections being made for that reason? There was a lot of stuff, so I may be forgetting something. I know I was trying to help push the Dominion before Houses agenda. Which is why I was being pushy on the shop thing.

I feel like asking us for input was a good way to go, though personally, I never had the illusion that I actually had veto rights? I felt like if we could sway you, we could do so with logic and reason, and -why- X shouldn't be a thing, I didn't realize you were actually just catering to us to keep us happy. I mean. That actually kind've makes me grumpy. :<

Did want to apologize though. The timing on it makes me feel like my pushing at you was at least partially responsible for you burning out. Wasn't my intention as a player, was just the IC thing to do. Wish you'd said something about the burnout though. I don't know what I could have done to help, but burnout's not a place we want our game leadership to be.

As to the removal of Houses. Bluntly, the Houses are the only part of Vampires that are actually fun for me. I know for a fact I'm not even remotely close to the only person who feels that way. Everything else is an unmanageable headache. I'm fine with them being subsets of the Dominion, though honestly I still feel the Dominion needs more direction that we don't really have room to give it inside the lore, and I also feel like the Dominion itself is 1) a waste of time and effort 2) annoying 3) deserving of implosion. I don't expect the latter to happen, but the removal of Houses is definitely a mistake. >.>

Plus, if you remove Houses and collapse it all into the Dominion, I'll have 8 Vampires in a single org. >.>

@Macavity You're seriously harping on those scrolls, man. It's less that we were told DON'T TOUCH THEM and more that we have no idea what Trager wanted to put IN them. Also, personally, I think a lot of them are unnecessary. Also, bluntly, I would have to uncolour them to be willing to do anything with them, and Trager clearly wanted them coloured, and see aforementioned thing where I didn't think I had veto rights. I bitched about the colours, but I didn't touch them.

Tangentially related: Trager severing won't light as much of a fire as it should, because ICly we have Rhyot, Cariv, Zenobia, and Macavity all sitting there going HEY THIS IS NO BIG DEAL, WHATEV. One Empress has already expressed that the populace isn't worried, why should she be.

Don't really want to suggest more negative effects, but if it doesn't motivate anyone to do anything, why is it even a thing to begin with.

Amusing side effect, we can't talk on DTS or do any of the empress privs now. So now we literally CANNOT update scrolls.

dhelp edit requirements
You don't have the authority to do that.

Rhyot

Erzsebet said:

@Rhyot Two points, though I'm probably speaking to a wall to say them. One: Eliser is swayed by logic and data, he is not tractable. He IS competent, so Erz is totally cool with not being able to control him. Two. He is not the ONLY person I'm willing to support, he is merely the only person of those currently OFFERED I am willing to support for a wide variety of IC reasons.

Can't speak to the other Empresses, but personal dislike is not the source of my reasons for opposing those I have rejected as options.

Each candidate does NOT have two supporting them. Each formally has one, and one or two who haven't stated either way. Eliser has two. And then each has at minimum two AGAINST. Apologies if that was unclear.

It's not a popularity contest. If I thought Cariv was the best choice for it, I'd support Cariv, even though he's not my favourite person. Last go 'round, Aecian was the candidate from my House, and he's cool, I like him, I didn't really know Trager all that well, except for him murdering my face from some previous event and taunting me like a Brat when Erz was freaking out about the Bloodlines being ashambles. Just because you don't see the RP that goes into these choices doesn't mean it's not there, is my point.

Not that anyone is likely to believe me, but I'd rather keep Eliser in Ve'kahi and out of the politics because that means more RP time for me and also less work for me. I pawn off a ridiculous amount of work on him that I'll have to do myself if he's Primus because he'll be doing Dominion work, not Ve'kahi work. >.>

1) You're not speaking to a wall, but I will attempt to alleviate that perception.

There have been a few people that have come up to an Empress or two and asked why isn't X an option and the response they get is. "The Blood Council doesn't want them." Either that or they don't even get a real answer, the Empress beats around the bush, or they are just plain out ignored because that means more discussion on the BC's part.

I understand that you believe that Eliser is the best option of the offered people. But if two of the Council are rejecting him, wouldn't it be in your best interest to maybe nominate others then? That would seem like the more logical course of action. I'm not saying the RP doesn't happen, I know it happens. Even I have RP that happens that you don't see (which is quite more than you would realize). If necessary, nominate others not of your House. The Primus is the leader of the entire Dominion, there's no written rule/law that says you can only nominate someone of your own House.

Onto the topic of negative repercussions. Yes, a few of are saying that its not a big deal. However, allow me to explain why I say its not a big deal. Reason being is because there are no real side effects to not being Blooded. You lose 1% every 10 minutes, but your regen counters that in 2. Sure, this can affect future Sirings if this isn't resolved. Absolutely. But that's more of a reason to do as I previously stated with maybe nominating different people.

I understand that the Primus will be the HL's personal Sire and that you want to have the best relationship possible, (and this is just a thought) but maybe you or the other Empresses should ask the Dominion who they feel would be best and going with a suggestion they say. After all, the Primus is to rule over the Dominion... not just the HLs.

Kalak

Bloodloch Camarilla leaders need their Sabbath to play nice with each other apparently.

Erzsebet

The problem, is that -everyone- offered has at least two people saying hell no. I've gone into detail to every person I've veto'd as to why not. I haven't shared that with the rest of you, and again I can only speak for myself here, because it feels like talking behind people's back when they're not around to defend themselves. And even if they are around, I don't want them to constantly have to endure a list of publically-cited flaws every time one of you lot asks for the information. I've told THEM my concerns with them as Primus. If you (or anyone else) wants them, go to the only person besides the Blood Council who knows.

I only offered Eliser because I looked around and saw no one that wants it that is suited to it for various IC reasons to Erzsebet's opinion. There is another waking and active she'll support, but I suspect she'll have the same problem as everyone else. Ellenia has decided SHE wants it and will only support herself. Neoma's still clinging to Cariv. Three of us, including his own HL don't support him. So as long as those two are unmoving on those two points, this isn't ging to get anywhere. I'm willing to move from Eliser--it's why I didn't formally confirm nomination until we started falling. I'm just not being offered any options I consider viable. Frankly, we need someone who will actually do the work that needs to be done.

Re: Negatives. YOU regen that in two seconds. We have members in the Dominion who don't passively regen yet because they're not endgame. Also, it has already negatively effected us as an organization rather than as individuals. We have no ability to -touch- the dominion files now, unless Trager logs in and does it for us. All of the abilities listed under Empress are closed to us as an org until we fix this. In roughly 3 days, all of the things under Princess will be closed to us, in another four-ish days, Grand Duchess etcetc. And eventually, all the blood will descend to be unable to take childer, which is super crazy bad from an IC perspective. But because we have people like you chirping OH I'M NOT WORRIED, IT'S NOT SO BAD, one of the uunmoveable Empresses is like 'Tch. The populace isn't worried, why should I care?' My point here, was that if the negative effects aren't going to be sufficient to motivate people, why do we even have them at all.

Re: Asking the Dominion their opinion. I know how this political game work. If Erz asks you lot, and you tell her you want someone who Erz strongly feels is not suited/won't do the work, and then doesn't support him/her anyway, I'll get the range of 'why did you even ask' nonsense. Not to mention Erzsebet feels like it is her decision (and the decision of the rest of the council) not the decision of the org. It's not supposed to be a populace vote. If it were, it would be.

For what it's worth, 'I'd hate having you as a Sire' only factors if I think someone would be a power-abusive Sire. Spying and beckoning at random, and blood will. All that jazz. And none of the offered people I feel would fall in that category. So while I don't think having any of the people would be OMG THE BEST SIRE EVER YAY RP, that's not a hindrance here. Really, she doesn't want any of the options as a Sire (including Eliser, because previously, she's always had a trump card to shut him out and if he gets it, she won't.)

Antehe

If the options are, "Compromise and risk not getting your way," or "Houses are deleted," which would you prefer?

Erzsebet

I'm not unwilling to compromise. I said that. I've been saying that.

Toz

I humbly put myself forth as Primus. I'll afk and let you do whatever you want, I'll use powers on cd and you can bribe me to declare a blood hunt for 200k gold any time!

On a note that is more on topic, the trouble with politics is there isn't a way to twist someone's rp arm. I can pk you into dirt but why do you care? I can post about how you are mecha-Ruin but if your 4 member House doesn't care, you drag the rest down with you. Finding a balance between the Houses is hard, and I think part of that is going to eventually involve pop size - if an active House 10 strong wants something, they SHOULD overrule the 2 strong House of equal activity by virtue of having that weight. Don't know where I'd draw the line but I think 1 House 1 vote is unfortunate given the size differences in Houses (or perceived difference anyway).