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Tethers and Conversion
Guess, that is true, before you need a feature you generally tend to not notice it at all. Currently there are 4 tetherless classes (despite one of it is obviously very connected to the Shadow lore it is a neutral class) which can change sides fairly easily.
While all other classes has no such conveniency. 50% forgetting return is a bit punitive in that regard. Perhaps similar classes should convert among each other once again, in order to be able to alleviate that. Or at least a better percentage return while changing to such a class.
I shall not hide that, I am heavily considering the case of character I am playing and currently remaining as a Sciomancer, rather then being an Ascendril seems far more economical on the outset. I would like to know what other people think about while going from one tether to another. Are the conversion costs fair?
While all other classes has no such conveniency. 50% forgetting return is a bit punitive in that regard. Perhaps similar classes should convert among each other once again, in order to be able to alleviate that. Or at least a better percentage return while changing to such a class.
I shall not hide that, I am heavily considering the case of character I am playing and currently remaining as a Sciomancer, rather then being an Ascendril seems far more economical on the outset. I would like to know what other people think about while going from one tether to another. Are the conversion costs fair?
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Comments
Having switched sides before, I know it is a costly thing if you have classes that are not neutral, however, it makes it an incentive to think through your actions before making the switch. Admin have always encouraged RP, and if side-hopping was too easy, there are several people out there would would ignore rp-reasons and simply switch sides if a new or improved class was released. I'm not saying doing this is wrong, just that my personal preference is different.
It might be an economical decision making you stick to your Shadow class, but there will undoubtedly be consequences to such actions. Rarely do people accept that someone uses "their" side's skills against them. There have been uproars when Druids have helped Bloodloch, or Teradrim have been assisting Duiran. As long as you are aware of the consequences, no one is really stopping you from this kind of play.
I think the main thing I'm trying to say is that it's up to you to weigh your economy against the consequences. The Admin are doing the same here, and I don't think it is unreasonable for the Admin to try to earn money from those who prefer switching around more. They need to make money to keep the game running after all.
They already say that they try to encourage organizational stuff rather then roguery, but this punitive measure rather encourages roguery. I mean, ylem stuff is nice but really not mandatory to RP and PvP.
There is of course no problem with the admin trying to earn money, but the majority of stuff around is already credit-investment intensive. Just thought, this discrepancy among classes could be something worthy of discussion.
During my last stint as a rogue, however, I was heavily considering hopping sides to Spinesreach, but hesitated because I didn't want to have to drop Templar class - not just because of the investment, but also because of what it meant for Phoe as a character. The investment forces you to really consider what you're doing and why, and what your character is willing (or unwilling) to do.
You can stay rogue and not give up anything and attempt to interact with people in the capacity you have, or you can use the side-hop as a major event in character development. It takes a lot to leave something behind for some people, and it can be reflected in how you play your character. Switching sides isn't and shouldn't be a meaningless thing, hence why it's so difficult on both an IC and OOC level.
I don't remember if this was the case, but I swear for Mages in particular, if you switched sides, whatever you invested in Mage skills just got ported over to the counterpart skillset. I think it used to be the same way with Paladins/Infernals way back when they shared two skillsets. I could be completely wrong and imagining things, though.
What is the advantage of a class other then its RP when it is tethered? Syssin could do as much as Shadow-related RP as a Sciomancer (though their flavor is different). But Syssin can also join all cities in the continent while Sciomancer cannot. There is no redeeming stuff offered in exchange for being stuck to the tether. It is more about fairness in the whole.
Wayfarer are loners. That is what their skills are built around. They travel and keep to themselves. Their class is built around the ability to move and shift between cities at a whim because of their restless nature.
The lore behind monks is similar to any type of peaceful religion. They do not turn outsiders away to learn the more peaceful aspects of self-defense and mastering the mind. It is their duty to educate the world around them in the ways of balance.
Finally, shapeshifters, they are a sub-race. Animal instincts that characters can let consume them. Their freedom comes from the fact that it is considered a race more than a class, again, lore-wise. It is pure, primal instinct when you are shapeshifter. You can't ask a wolf to stop being a wolf when it is their makeup.
So why don't we do similar lore with other classes? Because that will take away the importance of the tethers and the classes and guilds, with their beliefs and goals, in a big way. Although Spirit vs. Shadow is not the ONLY thing Aetolia has to offer, these tetherless classes being a good example, it is an important facet. Ingrained into Enorian guilds is the teachings that removing the taint on Sapience is what will bring about the age of Dawn. that their sparks and fire give them purity that is better than the alternative. Sentinels and Shaman? A primal spiritual connection that SHOULD stay close to Duiran. The wilds. The forests. Teradrim are connected to the earth. Bloodloch is built into the earth. Carnifex are knights of carnage. Again, fits with the lore of their city being one seeking domination of all living. Archivists get up to some shady knowledge grabbing and experiments, Spinesreach looks the other way. The Ascendril and Sciomancers are weaved with the nature and elements of their respective sides. They are black and white, in lore with subtle shades of grey due to their origins.
It is less about the investment and more about the lore and stories that develop within them. However, the heavy investment DOES make you think twice about breaking out of the RP developed and the nature of the guild or side you are potentially leaving. It is a reason to pause and ask: why?
There are arguments to be made about both syssin and monk. Kai supposedly is a spirit-based energy source, and syssin quite obviously make use of shadow. But they are neutral classes by virtue of balance necessities.
As someone who recently side-switched, I can tell you that yes, there is a very real cost of entry involved. But it would be the same as quitting any other class for one on your same side already. It is just that because of multiclassing that is not something that people have issue with much anymore. Ultimately, I think the costs are enough that it makes changing sides without a class that is considered neutral something that needs to be considered carefully. Do I think that losing 50% is fair? Eh. Not really. We're talking about a loss of about 300 credits or so for quitting a class. But do I get why it costs what it does? Yeah, I think so.
I'm not a huge fan of tethering myself, but from what I remember, tethering was done for class balance (having to account for every class being used on both sides of the game was seen as a balance nightmare) and because people claimed that having Spirit side classes serving Shadow side orgs didn't make any sense. I feel anything can be spun really well with the right RP, but...more often than not, as it has been in the past, people don't switch sides for character development. It's usually been because of PK scene, and switches were done with very little thought behind them.
Ever since tethering got put in, there has been a huge push on the admin level to make things more and more polarized. All Spirit and Shadow tether classes are the way they are to prevent people from taking classes to the opposite tether because each one has been made to thematically match its tether. Kind of hackneyed, but whatever.
I'm pretty sure most people if they were to switch sides would be screwed out of at least one class unless the entirety of their class slot list consisted of nothing but neutral classes.
Syssin abilities stem from Severn as a gift and its spread has not much to do with lore but rather balance. Most of the abilities within it screams of heavy shadow-themes.
Wayfarer gives off itself as a loner and wanderer but that has been stated several times that rogue gameplay will not be supported at all. Then it has been presented that Albedos taught the trade and does not care about the rest. Moving between cities and organizations is not being a loner. Just having a convenient advantage to be able to switch regardless of tether. As a tetherless option it is bound to make more money and otherwise it would be unfair if it had a tether. (i.e. "You gave them that, did not gives us anything!" issue)
Well, apparently someone from Bloodloch, a vampire trying to learn your "peaceful" religion will do very much good with those abilities. They do not turn people away, is a bit of a weak argument. Again it should be considered as a balance matter, and lore following suit. It is a common practice in IRE games to fit the lore to the mechanics. Aetolia is no exception.
Shapeshifting is a mutation, you can ask a wolf to stop being a wolf. Like the way you ask a vampire to stop being a vampire. Like the way you ask an Archivist to stop being an Archivist. Lore is not strong over there too when it clashes with the mechanics.
So it is about other concerns rather then "lore". Please, we should be careful when we throw the word "lore" because I have seen it used to justify many shady practices and additions within several games. I see 50% refund as punitive and that really does not make me think about anything but yet another old IRE practice. It actually makes remaining rogue more desirable. Regardless, it is about character development for me and I do not play a character which gathers classes like a collection. And really come on, competitive stuff around is already investment heavy: You have inordinate amount of skillsets, Eq Crown, ylem stuff, relics etc. etc. Giving a break on at least in some point would make the game seem more like a game instead of a business for once. Though this is my perception. Take it as an honest criticism from a player.
@Phoenecia When I consider for one new player, one could have no idea for a long time that one might be screwed while switching sides. I know from experience with Imperian there are costs to switching sides. But let us say someone entirely new to IRE would not know. And I do agree that tethering is a hackneyed approach. Tethers provide rigidity and forced sides, rather then encouraging organizational RP.
I find this helps me out in times of trouble, though.
The neutral classes are there to allow a more economical way for people to switch around if they care to play side-hoppers. If you have one neutral class, you at least have a way to fend for yourself while rebuilding your capital after switching. It's an improvement, since before Multiclassing, this was the cost every time you wished to switch class, not just tethers. Now you can keep at least one class (without paying extra credits), if you switch guilds within your tether. The extra cost comes if you wish to make a larger RP leap and switch sides. Some games don't even offer 50% back, as @Xenia said. In a sense you are right, it is about money. I, for one, think it's fair that the game tries to earn some from its players.
When it comes to credit investment, it is all on you, as a player. Yes, I know that since there are a lot of people out there with loads of artifacts, it is needed to stand a chance in the top field of fighters, but it is still up to you if you wish to be there or not. If you invest a lot in artifacts that are specific to a certain class, it will naturally be a greater economical blow if you then decide to drop that class. It is still your choice, so no reason really to pull that into this discussion, as it has little to do with the base cost of switching.
Wayfarers (in their original sense on Albedos) are loners. It doesn't mean that it translates to loners on Sapience, because we were simply trained in the art, not the complete mindset. It's not connected to any specific tether, just like shapeshifting isn't connected to anything (anyone can shift form if they learn to), making them both neutral. Syssin and Monk skills are leaning heavily in their separate directions, but as @Kyna said, it makes sense for their arts to spread outside their original guilds. Yes, it also has to do with balance, but you can't just wave off the background.
When it comes to said background, I'm sorry, but I have to say this: Of course you don't care about lore, because it seems to me you never have. You should know by now, after all the times you have been told in threads, over clans, and in the game, that lore is something we care very deeply about in this game. It's not something you can just ignore to suit your needs, at least not on a grander scale. We mention lore because it matters. To the rest of us.
This game has been a continuous story, with things happening in it since way before you began playing in March, and there are things that have been established as canon. It is, I hope you can understand, extremely frustrating for us when you choose to blatantly push all that aside as irrelevant, just as it can be frustrating being blamed for actions (or lack thereof) because a character is adhering to game rules or mechanics.
Now, I realize that the last part is somewhat flaming, and I apologize, but I felt it had to be expressed, and it is related to what was written above. This game is built on lore, don't ignore it.
I really do not find explanations of @Kyna as satisfying at all. You may find. That does not mean I disregard lore. And before that I have been playing Imperian which has Anti-Magick, Magick, Demonic circles. Tethers, circles and such as far as they go, all provide rigidity and artificial barriers instead of the intended encouragement of organizational RP.
And I really do not care about your "My way or highway" attitude. You may dislike my view of the lore or even the RP of my character. Be my guest. Generally I prefer to take a proactive approach instead of the reactive approach pervading the game. I mean can you blame me for that? Just do not presume that I do not care about the lore or I do something considered as ICly insane.
At the end of the day, I will continue to enjoy the game and offer my criticism where its due.
Severn's gift of training does not mean that the class itself is as infused in shadow as characters (and players apparently) believe. Was there some intended bleedover for some time? Yes. Should anyone be shocked that the God of Artifice might lie to his own people to prop up this sense of being really *special* pets, in lieu of the history of the Ankyreans? The most prized and trusted rellyw? No.
As stated, Wayfarer is not native to Sapience and is offered training. The true Wayfarers do not move between cities, they are off protecting borders and hunting in Albedos, which is Hard Mode compared to what Sapience deals with. Willfully ignoring the clarity offered on this point does not serve any purpose.
Monk's one tie to Spirit is through Kaido, which is primarily the manipulation of that amount of essence inside of you rather than a link or draw from the larger element. Every mortal, even Undead, still have a bit of Spirit in them. It gets dominated by Shadow with their state, but it holds out.
Shapeshifting is a non-genetic mutation rooted in an ancient ritual. Someone being able to drop the training bears no relevance to the conversation, regarding lore or without.
I am sorry you see the well documented refund rate as punitive, but those are the breaks. I am sorry you do not find our explanations satisfying (though I will say that that is reciprocated, the arguments themselves and the attitude in which they are conveyed. This is becoming a reoccurring situation where tone clouds meaning to everyone's discredit.).
The tethers are in place for several reasons: both the mechanical balancing, as well as the lore. A Templar channeling the gifts of the Spirit plane makes little sense assisting Shadow as a Spirean citizen, just as a Sciomancer has little place warping the balance of the elements in Duiran or Enorian. There is a hard polarity with these two elements (which are physical things, not just propaganda for politics), which group some training in ways that are incompatable with others. It is easy to come up with personal narratives as to why you might toe the line, but the elements are not so forgiving once you try to immerse them within each other.
I mean when going from Shadow-Knight Archetype to Light-Knight Archetype, making refund rate 75-80% will not suddenly make the game go bankrupt. Rather it would have a positive impact while still having serious limitations.
And when I say tethers provide a very rigid environment, I do not argue lore but rather a design decision. I would say it creates a politically constipated game at the absence of admin directive. Like religion system, at the absence of god-players it is stagnant. And PvP? It is investment heavy, too much system-reliant, detached mostly from the RP and stringed with draconian rules. If you think, right now you have a seamless world which molds strong lore, RP, PvP and PvE together, I shall be direct. No you have not. You have a game which reshapes lore with every different design decision and sews new tunics over old bodies.
And as for my tone and threads, I leave them for future when someone decides to tackle those issues and make this a better game overally. I am not ashamed to be the Devil's Advocate once in a while.
It still sucks switching sides when you hold opposite tethered classes, but when making a big decision like that, it's a penalty that you kind of have to accept given the magnitude of the decision.
A few months ago, I had considered joining Spinesreach for RP reasons. Of the classes I have, I have all four neutral classes, plus Templar and Ascendril. If I had switched, it wouldn't have hurt me quite so much, but I considered Templar my primary class, and the idea of giving it up was painful. I had to really think long and hard about the decision, and if I had gone through with it, I'd have taken the penalty.
Sure, you might be able to justify why a Teradrim might want to help Duiran, but you're skirting a very fine line with lore as is, and potentially disregarding others just to be a snowflake. Everyone remembers that one character that was a Priest and was helping out Bloodloch. Yeah.
The penalty, I feel, suits the magnitude of the decision, and kind of prevents frequent side hopping. It's a paradigm shift, and with that comes certain restrictions.
If you actually want to get anywhere with your ideas, you need a consistent argument for any of your points. You have not been "the Devil's Advocate once in a while", you have been instead "Consistently arguing against the established lore of the game when you don't like the effects thereof and seeming to ignore answers when met with reasonable explanations and arguments for why your preferred way of things isn't feasible."
So, please: improve your arguing skills, don't act like lore and game design are mutually exclusive, actually listen and absorb what the administration and players tell you about why the established lore will not support your ideas so that you can refine your ideas into something that fits into aetolias's mold, and then maybe something you would like to see will happen.
Also, you really need to stop throwing around insults like that one above if you actually want anything to be accomplished, insulting those involved in changing things is pretty much the least effective method of achieving it. And, lastly, if you are going to throw out insults: make them not so drenched in hyperbole that I could wring them out and fill a bucket.
Other people have said better what I'd be saying to argue your points made in this thread, so instead I'm going to directly address a portion of your last post (which is on topic given the thread creator brought it up) - your tone and status as 'Devil's Advocate'.
Last thing first: Devil's Advocate is a role from the Catholic Church in an official capacity, tasked with arguing against sainthood by uncovering flaws in a person. What you are doing isn't Devil's Advocacy, you are arguing with a specific agenda for selfish gain. In more casual circles this is known as whining (whinging here sometimes) - there's not anything particularly wrong about it, but it is entirely self-serving and you should do us the courtesy of not insulting our intelligence by pretending this is for the greater good, or that your constant thread creation is some noble work.
Extending from this, your posting style grates because you tend to mix in think veiled (or not veiled at all) jabs at anyone who disagrees while asserting some measure of superiority over the rest of the population- you are the newcomer here. Newcomer opinions are welcome, but you would do well to remember that not only are you a new face, but of unknown quality relatively speaking. Just because you had an idea doesn't mean any of us should care, or agree with it. And when things fail to become an echo chamber, you should mind your tone because as it stands you are failing to convince anyone else of your ideas - repetitively doing so seems, to me, like a you issue and not a them issue, since you're the only constant.
Tl;dr- you are whining and insulting people and that's why people are treating you like this. Self-awareness will go a long way in preventing threads from going like this; as it stands, you are like 0 for 4 on these and the only constant variable is you.
As a final thought, I am sorry MKO went under. This is not MKO and you are not any more special than any other player, so if players (and admin) are consistently chiming in against your ideas, maybe the problem is that x in MKO worked there but will not work here, and while perspective from another is nice, you should accept you are the minority and not everything in this game will be tailored to your liking.
Anyways, as I see, criticizing has become insulting nowadays. Okay a quick checklist of mine:
- Religion mechanics: Are they fun without admin intervention? No? ( - )
- PvP: There has been great lapses in exciting battles? Yes? ( - )
- PvP (Ylem&Sect): Are those treated like detached minigames? Yes? ( - )
- RP forms: Are life out of cities supported even on minimal degree (tutor etc.)? No? ( - )
- PvP Barrier: Do you need a lot of investment to compete? Yes? ( - )
- Ingame economy is going towards better? Yes? ( + )
- Ingame economy is still heavily dominated by external stuff such as relic pieces, credit sales, auctions, ironcoins etc. Yes? ( - )
- Conversion prices from tether to tether is non-existent for one class, while it is exorbitant for another? Is it fair? ( - )
- Eq Crown is still a thing? Yes? ( - )
- Tether mechanics are forcing people or encouraging people? Depends. ( + - )
- Is it fun to RP in this game? ( + )
See there are even some positive sides! But those positive sides would not make me detract from putting forward the other points. Call it whining if you wish. If I did not say my piece, it would be disservice rather.
So let us take a step back, hmm...no one thought that for one moment, PKing someone to ground because they do not give up a class is griefing? I mean, what kind of fucked up thing that is?
This thread gave me enough feedback on what kind of story I should follow. Really thanks for that.
You want to be Duiran's pet Sciomancer. But all the history of the game is going to oppose you for that.
For one moment consider as someone who played a character which changed sides, whether you would benefit from a better conversation rate or not? Yes? Yes.
Now if you have nothing constructive to add, keep your IC observations away.
It's set me back a huge amount of lessons, despite going from Ascendril to Sciomaner, and Crystalism (the one skill of the three I actually use) being exactly the same.
The loss is well-documented. And you won't find anyone in this game as mechanically inept as me! Side-swapping — truly side-swapping — is hard. But it was absolutely worth it to me. And in no way did it feel punitive. It's no punishment. It is a cost, yes. But it's a cost that can be mitigated by proving yourself to your new faction and actually engaging with it. @Tekias gave me the two last credits I needed to get back to trans Crystalism, and told me he was just paying it forward.
Far from being some kind of punishment, the cost created a whole transitional period. It makes you take the side-swap seriously; I don't only mean the decision to do it in the first place, either. Resolving to take the step is one thing, and hard enough to decide. Every step after that brings you to a place where you can't turn back, and have to keep moving forward.
And the recuperating the cost, once you've suffered the loss, isn't just the wall that slams shut behind you: it becomes the thing that helps you move forward from there.
But then, you're not actually interested in switching sides and crossing tethers, right? You are happy to be an independent Sciomancer, and that is your only goal and has always been your only goal? So then this whole hypothetical cost doesn't apply to you to begin with, yes? It's entirely selfless, concerned with other people like me? You're only trying to benefit the game as a whole, by bringing up something you've noticed that would have zero benefit to you personally, out of the goodness of your heart?
(I happened to have a bank of lessons, since I have never once invested a single one in Enchantment. Was planning on using those for whatever my second class happened to be, but didn't realize my 'second' class would also again be my 'only' class when it came.)
There's a sunk cost fallacy. I invested my time into the Ascendril Guild, and while that didn't end well for me, at the time I got back what I was putting into it. As far as time invested in Sciomancers, I'm back to day one. But that's not punitive either.
Even more than that time cost, though, the true cost of tether-switching is social. If, during my time as an Ascendril, I had made a nuisance of myself in Spinesreach, then no amount of bound credits would have helped me. If for some reason today, I bought 500 credits and asked to be let back into Enorian, I'd be laughed at. That bridge is burned.
Side-swapping is a larger investment of social currency than it is either credits or time. The lesson loss forces us to pause and consider all three. If there was no mechanical drawback to side-swapping and it was left entirely in player hands, the social currency would become a much more vicious black market of feelings.
We have said, repeatedly, that you can play your role as you wish, but you will have to accept the concequences of your RP. The reason people are calling this whining (and I'm speculating here) is because most of your post seem to come directly in connection to what happens to your character in the game. For someone who can't stand/doesn't want to/refrains from discussing OOC matters related to the game, you are awfully blind in certain aspects, especially if you cannot see the correlation between these things yourself. Kalak is in an altercation with a Divine, you post about religious systems and changing so that the Divine are not so powerful when it comes to their way of influencing stuff (or something). Kalak switches tether, you post about the cost of switching sides. In both these cases, you have perpetually ignored the counterarguments made against you. People (including a previous Producer and Admin) who have a better grasp of this game than someone who is new to it. When joining a game and a community, why not try to assimilate instead of trying to pick it apart and change it according to your preferences?
Back to the discussion about shifting tethers and the cost: this is a game, so of course there has to be some kind of rigidity, some kind of system to follow, some mechanics and some rules. This particular thing is an additional way for the game to make a profit, because even though people might not purchase credits for artifacts, they might decide to support their character's decisions of switching careers. If you want a less costly way of doing this, you can of course choose to stick to neutral classes only, as you are allowed to keep one class without buying another slot. This means you can be a Wayfarer/Syssin/Monk/Shapeshifter and hop from guild to guild to guild... to guild, without really paying anything, unless you wish to learn that particular guild's class skills.
If you wish, you can even be a shadow-tether/neutral class and switch between Bloodlochian and Spirean guilds without there being a cost at all. Or a spirit-tether/neutral class and hop around between the Duiran and Enorian guilds until they tire of your inability to decide who to stay loyal to. The only time this cost becomes a factor is if your character makes the tough decision to turn against former alliances and switch tethers, because LORE means that it makes less sense for someone to keep their skills when fighting on the opposing side. And in this case it is backed up by mechanics.
That said, and I really want to keep on that friendly point of that whole thing with the, I like you...
It's cool. Is it fair that one class can go between all cities with less of a cost? Well, yes, actually it is. Why? Well, first point, because anyone can pick up those classes. Heck, shifters don't even take up one of the slots -and- you get a bunch of the skills for free so that's pretty sweet, right? Grab that and hang out as a shifter for a while as you save up to make the transition! Nifty, no?
Think you might bounce around a bit? Go wayfarer. Fo' rizzle though, these guys? They made to roam.
You're looking at Duiran so Monk is super open to you right now!
There's at least one ex-Syssin running around in the world somewhere who has no issue teaching people their ways.
The world is your shellfish or reasonable approximation thereof of your choosing.
Want to invest heavy into your new tether? Okay, but that will cost. It's just kinda how it is. Is it fair? Yes. Why is it fair? Because from a mechanical stand point, there has to be something that stops people from taking classes that harness counter-elements to places that don't accept them. From a business stand point, dey gotta make dat chedda. From an RP stand point, having something that stops a vampire mommy of three from waking up one day and going 'you know what? I think bloodsucking's gross, let's go give that totally awesome Illuminai girl in Enorian her way and join up with the cause' pause for a moment makes those decisions more important and impactful.
Does it suck? Sure. I've got syssin so swapping sides for me would be a bit easier because I'd have at least a bit of a class still, but you're ignoring the fact that the detriment, the cost, would still be there for me. I'd be giving up zealot which I have put more lessons into. (Hypnosis is booooooooring.) So it still sucks for people with untethered classes. Thanks to multiclassing, we all get to enjoy a bit of the suckage! But that's how it is. A mix of lore, business, and mechanical necessities get us to that point. And that's okay. What's more, it's fair.
Would it be fair if that cost was less? Sure. Would IRE get less of dat chedda? Yeah, and you know, we like supporting them because hey, Tiur gotta get those hot tubs some how, right?
Now Kalak-guy, to leave all this off... you might be trying to play devil's advocate, and that's noble. You might be honestly trying to improve things when you find issues. There's nothing wrong with that. The issue is you're coming off super combative. You probably don't mean to. You probably don't realize you're doing it. But I'm reading your stuff and wanting to punch you in your little Kalak face for how you're speaking to Kyna and let's face it, I don't even know Kyna. I just think her text color name is pretty. So try and re-read your posts with that in mind, look for that kinda wording that we're seeing, and try and tone it down? Maybe that'll help you get your devil's advocate point across more and people'll see you less as a whiner?
For real though, lotsa love and I hope I didn't just make a jerk of myself.