Limb Damage System

Keroc

Hey folks,

I'm interested in gathering a little feedback about our limb damage system, such as the mechanics behind limbs breaking, restoration healing, pre-restoration, parrying, etc. I've noticed they tend to go much more unused compared to affliction classes, and while that might not be odd in itself since afflictions are better developed, it seems as though we rarely have anyone taking up limb classes in full.

Is there simply a lack of information regarding how the limb damage system works, or do people genuinely not enjoy limb combat? If so, what would make it more appealing to you?

I can't promise much, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Feel free to drop a post and I'll look over them as they come through.

Thanks!

Sivekui

The only thing I dislike about limb classes is the way restoration works on level 2 and level 3 breaks.

You get a level 2 break, press restoration and 4/4.2 seconds later that limb is cured. Tracking that is really hard considering with lag etc you mess up so much more then you do with tracking pill afflictions.

I was meaning to do a classlead to make it easier to track so when you press restoration the break is cured straight away BUT it still uses the 4/4.2 second salve balance. This would make coding for limb classes much easier and less complicated.

I prefer limb classes personally but this really drives me nuts guessing when the person has cured it properly.

Keroc

Unfortunately that'd probably hurt limb classes more, as they'd lose out on their window to apply pressure. For example someone would stand 4 seconds earlier if you broke both their legs.

Triggering is pretty simple though. Don't set your timer for the full 4 seconds, make it shorter such as 3.6. That should solve any overlap issues due to lag or what have you. That gap probably isn't big enough to really hurt you, not any more then say rebounding might as an affliction class.

Toz

A 3p line for it would fix it, IMO. Some classes need to know the second a break is cured, too - shapeshifter (destroy), WF (embed axe) are two off the top of my head. Plus WF's instakill. You won't know you missed your kill window until after you swing and whiff whereas aff classes don't have any ambiguity in things being cured.

Teani

Tracking is the main issue when it comes to this kind of combat. There are far too many times where I try to attack a limb and it's not at the appropriate break, hence you lose a second of balance, hope that your system resets the tracking to the appropriate breaklevel, and then attack again.

Add to that that anyone can simply put up a shield, and a Shapeshifter without a hammer tattoo has no way of doing anything but sit idly by and then start over when the target decides to break the shield after healing up.

Granted, it's been a while since I fought in other classes, so I'm not sure if there are others who have similar problems. I can only speak for this one, since it's the one I use. I can probably hinder like a champ, if things are set up properly, but getting a kill is a different story. If I want that, I have to alter to a tactic that is not hindering, to help build pressure, but that opens me up to damage and... squish.

If you want to change from hindering to salve pressure, you might need as much as 24 seconds for the full effect, more if you just missed the howl tick. Interchange meant it was possible to switch from one set of howls to another, even if it means you lose howl balance for a little longer, and you could change your tactic mid combat.

Again, I'm not an expert. I'm only possibly a mid-tier, manual fighter (unlike those people out there with fancy AIs). Just figured I could add some of my thoughts, since not everyone interested in fighting is a super-coder machine.

Ilyon

Disclaimer: haven't done much PKing these last few months, and I mostly do/did team combat, so you'll want to apply generous amounts of salt to this post.

That said. In my opinion/experience the reasoning is similar as the one expressed over on the eqcrown thread - automation. Aetolia is unique in that its current combat meta is pretty much 100% reliant on heavy automation and tracking, to the point where you cannot afford to make mistakes in your selection of attacks, and even a single attack that doesn't advance your goal can set you back too much.

I will not get into whether such a situation is desirable or not, but, practically speaking, making automation for affliction classes is fairly easy, while making automation for limb classes is not, but both types of classes are reliant on your ability and willingness to do so.

With affliction classes, you can code up a viable offense in a couple hours at most, and with some experience can hack up something passable in maybe 30 minutes. Pre-made trackers are readily available, even for free.

With limb classes, keeping track of the target's state becomes much harder, as restoration is delayed and you do not get much feedback from the game, forcing you to rely on timers and counters. Misrepresenting the target's state for any reason (such as them leaving the room or whatever) also hurts a limb class a lot more than an affliction one. Additionally, it is much less obvious which limb to attack, as the endgame is more nebulous and you need keep track of the target's parrying patterns, incoming restoration, and so on.

I did try to make limb classes (Teradrim/Monk) work with just a limb counter and a highlight for the currently restored limb, but couldn't, as without full automation, attacking the wrong limb was too frequent. I'm sure I would be able to put together a full tracker with all the bells and whistles, but well, it'd be a lot of effort for limited gain.

Again using Teradrim as an example, few people managed to get the class to work, and my understanding is that they all use(d) heavy automation.

Valingar

To be honest, I somewhat like the limb damage system as is, but that might be no secret. The reason is that the vague ambiguities around its tracking mean that compared to afflictions, you'll have a harder time automating limb offenses. And I think that's a good thing.

Limb offenses, at their best, give people alternatives to the automation-heavy affliction game. Every changelog that's eased tracking of limbs has made me wince a bit, since it brings it closer to that day when the better choice is for me, too, to start building heavy automation to my limbs to compete. I know the changelog for reliable restoration tracking might have be paving a road I don't like.

I'm not sure why people want more easy salve tracking. I'm not sure they'd like the result, either. Right now, you can use many limb classes without writing complex AI's. But the easier tracking is made, the more efficient AI's can and will be made compared to humans. A few years back many people were all for adding more affliction tracking in classleads, and these days the same people are now complaining about automation.

Not that restoration salve tracking is that hard even now. 3.8 seconds into a restoration cure, assume the limb is restoration cured. The real number is 4.3. You'll never assume wrongly that way.



^ This is what my limb counter looks like for Zealot. And during my early years, when I was most active in PK, I didn't even have that much. I kind of like that, compared to how much I've had to automate all my other classes, I can choose not to do so with limb routes, beyond the bare necessities, such as shield strips, using wrench instead of kick when target is prone, and so on.

Frankly, if I had my way, I'd take limb classes even further away from automation, though it'd need some classes to be re-tuned. What if you couldn't tell apart a mending salve from a restoration salve? Beautiful dream.

Ilyon

Valingar said:

I'm not sure why people want more easy salve tracking. I'm not sure they'd like the result, either.

They wouldn't. But popularity of limb classes is the topic of this thread, and with classes being as complex as they currently are, there are only two ways to increase the usage of limb ones - making automation viable, or toning down the crazy complexity (of both affliction and limb) to make classes more approachable. Or give all our players superhuman reflexes, that works too

Toz

Yeah, the inherent trouble of wanting limb classes to be both manual AND desirable to the vast majority is that affliction classes AREN'T manual. That means if you want to play an aff class, as others said, you spend 30 minutes writing a tracker and an AI. Welcome to mid tier+. If you want to play a limb class, you spend like a RL month practicing your aliases until it's muscle memory. Welcome to low tier+. Time invested vs rewards absolutely does not match up. I also have AI for all my limb classes but one - it isn't perfect, my tracking is often off, but over time I'm lazily refining it. It's not impossible, or even improbable, it just takes more work/coding knowledge, which cuts down on the amount of people who can play limb classes. Not everyone has a Comp Sci degree, or an interest in digging much deeper into code than a simple trigger/script.

Rhyot

This is just my opinion on the matter. I do not main limb classes, but I do have Teradrim and it works somewhat ok.

The main problem with limb classes is that they don't really have any sort of way to hinder limb curing, stop pre-restoring, there's a couple ways to cure a broken limb outside of mending, and parrying.

Hinder: The inability to stop someone from effectively using mending/pre-resto is a huge negative side effect of limb classes. Sure, Shapeshifters have access to Anorexia howl and Monk/Zealots have access to indifference, and Teradrim MIGHT get that lucky 1/4 chance proc and get an anorexia proc with Sand Swelter. But other than that they don't really have any other salve pressure to the extent that affliction classes have with herb pressure.

*Note: The only thing useful for any limb class would be Monk/Zealot with Kai Cripple. The ability to break 4 limbs immediately, put them on a timer where they can't cure said limbs and then start using WRT. It's about the only thing that helps these specific classes.

Pre-restoration: If timed well, you can pre-restore a 20% damaged limb, cure that 20% and then 4.3s later, pre-restore a second limb of all damage. Granted, your opponent doesn't break the limb first. Additionally, you can hide behind shield (or even rebounding if you're fighting a Teradrim) which REALLY hinders any limb class' ability to push for limb damage.

Broken limb curing: Restore, tree, mending. All three of these are ways in which any broken limb can be cured and you can't really stop Tree as a limb class unless you somehow manage to break both arms and Restore is a skill that can be used by Praenomen to instantly heal broken limbs. And of course, mending (which has a 1.1s balance) and of course, very minimal hindering ability.

Parrying: Parrying is another very difficult problem for limb classes. Reason being, any intelligent fighter will track their limb damage, parry the closest break limb, pre-resto it and move parry to the next closest broken limb. Because of automation, parrying is getting smarter. People run the same routes from A-> Z, so you know where to parry at any given time and do so easily with a few strikes to the keyboard.


All in all, limb classes are fun because they offer a different way of killing someone, but they are incredibly annoying. I both enjoy them, and don't enjoy them. Also, to answer your question what would make them more appealing... give Shapeshifter/Teradrim more active ways to hinder limb curing. (I didn't mention monk/zealot because Kai Cripple is already a super potent ability to 1) hindering and 2) can be capitalized on it easily with WRT and more leg hits to push into heavier pre-restore)

Seir

Momentum is too easily broken by fast affliction classes. It takes a few misses via Clumsiness, lost time via paralysis, and/or having to deal with parry AND rebounding (in some cases like Templar) that make afflictions the better route to pursue overall. Additionally, even if you do set someone behind, limb class momentum is also easily broken by someone running away. The only class that doesn't really lose progress is Lycanthrope because of rips lasting for a bit of time. Not to mention, Lycanthrope is one of the few classes that can really punish over liberal usage of pre-restoration since if you do it incorrectly, it's not going to take them much to limb break and mangle by the time you resto. Monk can do this too via Kai Cripple.

I think that's really the key. The classes need more options of punishing over liberal usage of pre-resto, since a lot of them can't. They need ways of saving their progress (like Rips) if they DO make some against their opponent, and I honestly don't think that some of them should be subject to rebounding in addition to parry.

Eliadon

Ehh, the classes that are subject to rebounding tend to have a higher limb damage rate than classes that are not.

The reason I don't use limb classes is for one reason, and one reason alone - I do not currently have another $300 to spend. Templar's limb route is finicky at best for reasons that have nothing to do with tracking, so that hardly counts ;p.

Trikal

Limb combat is great, hardest and bestest thing about it is parrying. With parry the way it is having a fully automated offense is definitely harder compared to other classes. The random concerns I see here regarding limb combat being worse off than aff combat I don't really agree with. I can kill pretty much anyone with either type with varying degrees of difficulty. My biggest concern with limb combat is in general it's probably too strong, seeing as how it's harder to automate and really maximize the potential that just screams to me that it's strong. If you can beat someone who's running their offense at 100% efficiency while manually fighting you're either very experienced, like Valingar, or the class is probably stronger than it should be. I think limb classes generally do better than affliction classes in chasing people down because while they may be running it's taking them 4 seconds to cure a single limb's worth of damage, while against an affliction class in 4 seconds you can pretty much reset everything on you unless you've waited far too long.

I find limb combat really fun, it's far more intricate than it seems (I just irrationally hate playing monk). I think limb fighting is harder to get into simply because fighting someone with a good parry opposed someone with a bad parry makes it really hard for you to figure out what you're doing well / badly. When you have 10 fight logs to go through and they're wildly different due to parry makes it a steeper learning curve. I'm a big fan of the standardized restoration amount, mainly because scaling off health made limb classes even stronger in groups than they already are because of high damage for 1v1 pressure.

Limb classes in groups are WAY more potent than affliction classes because 5 people attacking 1-2 limbs means those limbs get all sorts of fucked up. Meanwhile 5 syssin/templar dstab/dsl asthma/paresis means the target got 2 afflictions.

Teani

In regards to appeal, I think it's the general difficulty of figuring it all out is what makes it less so compared to afflictions. I shapeshifter. I have since I started this character, and I have struggled (off and on) with becoming better at fighting like one. I sometimes wonder... if it was as difficult to make an AI for affliction fighting, would there be more of a balance between who chooses what to fight as?

Mind you, I'm old school. In a way I like my manual fighting and I liked it back when I fought manually as a Paladin too. It makes me feel like I am actually doing something rather than watching a fight.

Emir

Leaving the room is actually less punishing for limb class tracking than herb based classes. There's much less guessing as to what they're curing and if they're off salve ball due to restoration then you have more time to catch up and not lose any in room messages about applying. There's also easy checks and 3rd person messages about if they did clear something like standing and stuff. 

I do agree with Ilyon about the end game I think. Indorani was the easiest limb class for me to get into because the end game was very clear and reaching it felt much simpler, kind of?

Illikaal

I haven't pk'd as a Monk or a Lycan in years, but when I was doing it I was pretty good at it. Now while I haven't PK'd at all in quite a while, although i'm working on changing that, I've kept up with all the changes made to combat over the years that I haven't been playing. Like Ilyon said, bring on the Morton.

The biggest problem I had with the 2 classes I played were:

Lack of a shield breaking ability. This was fixed with the new scythekick for monks. Lycans still lack one outside of the hammer tat. I think people that play Lycan feel gimped because it's not just that other classes have shield breaking abilities build into their kits - it's that their shield breaking abilities help accelerate their offense in addition to breaking shield (raze+slash for templar, auto shield break for shamans every other shield + a mental aff, Monks + Daru able to break a shield + punch twice in the same combo etc.) This is why some people including myself feel that lycans need something other than hammer tat. The reasoning they didn't get one in the past, at least the reasoning that was given to me was due to the potent nature of the lycan offense being able to constantly break arms. Most classes have gotten updates that let them attack with a broken arm or abilities that let them bypass such effects.

Lack of immediate hindering pressure. I feel this mostly got remedied by the paresis/paralysis changes all that time ago. This probably doesn't apply to lycanthropes as much as it does Monks and Daru. It probably affects Daru less due to boiling blood, but it was hard trying to get your breaks going when fighting fast aff classes like Templar, Luminary, Syssin, Vampires and the like that have hindering afflictions on demand like clumsiness, weakness, lethargy, etc. Sometimes it felt like I'd be locked or close to it long before i could even get some good breaks going due to my offense being slowed down so much, when its already slow by nature to begin with. Now while Monks and Daru do have hindering abilities, they don't really help progress their offense much at all.

Just about all the other problems i was going to mentioned have been completely fixed in one way or another. Now I obviously can't give an accurate assessment on the current state of limb classes, but I definitely feel like there is some potential for the existing ones that primarily use it (Daru, Monk, and Lycans.) As far as the Templar and Carnifex limb routes go, players have been complaining about them sucking for quite a while now and I don't know what to say about it. I've always felt that the limb route could be expanded upon a bit, to somehow incorporate minor herb pressure to help further advance limb routes and make them more interesting. Most of Telepathy and Vocalizing goes largely unused because most of the affs you can give with them just aren't helpful in most scenarios, especially when dueling. Perhaps those skillsets could be looked at touched on.

Lin

Illidan said:

Most of Telepathy and Vocalizing goes largely unused because most of the affs you can give with them just aren't helpful in most scenarios, especially when dueling. Perhaps those skillsets could be looked at touched on.

I don't claim to be a great fighter at all, but I've experienced what you mentioned here. There are so many affs in Telepathy and I have literally no idea when I'm supposed to use them - they seem to simply slow down your offense.

Emir

Ask Serrice or Cariv what they're used for. 

Probably unintended but a monk with a dagger and telepathy is absolutely terrifying in coordinated small groups. 

Satomi

Am I wrong, or are the only classes that do mending breaks are the ones that use epseth/epteth, lycan's standard attacks, or affliction classes abilities (ie. shrivel in Necromancy?)

I don't know, but if that is the case it seems to take away an entire affliction from limb classes, so all they need to do is pre-resto intelligently... which means that the limb class has to trick the enemy's pre-resto so that they can break the limbs they want.. and that doesn't include maneuvering around parry.. so all of salve pressure revolves around Restoration handling. Meanwhile, aff classes have like 5-10 different aff paths to take (though realistically, there are only like.. maybe 2 major ones? Like Kelp).

Dunno.. I don't play limb classes that often, and I never PK as them anymore because they are just outside my scope (aff classes are easy to code for by comparison), but it seems like aff classes have more options to play with, where limb classes seem to just max speed as much as possible and.. wait.. hehe, I forget that most limb classes also have an aff route, and a lot of them prefer that over the actual limb route. (Also noticed that the classes that focus 100% on limb pressure tend to have a static attack speed, like Monk, Shifter, Tera).

Could be wrong, rambly input.

Trikal

Monks do kai cripple which does mending breaks to all limbs, teradrim and templar do bruises which are mending afflictions. Teradraim can also do mending breaks with fracture.

Monk and tera can adjust attack speed / limb damage. Monks have different stances, teradrim have different attacks, as well as the momentum ability which gives you a boost to speed for a couple attacks.

Most limb classes have salve pressure outside of pure restoration.
Zealot - ablaze
Monk - cripple (limb breaks)
Teradrim - bruises/limb breaks
Templar - bruises
Carnifex - caloric (soon to be)
Shapeshifter - breaks
Wayfarer - IDK, no one plays it as a limb class, and I don't have it.

Eliadon

Mind indifference after combo for both zealot and monk, too.

Illikaal

Eliadon said:

Mind indifference after combo for both zealot and monk, too.

Oh don't get me wrong, I know there are some uses for a few things such as indifference as you mentioned, disrupt, blackout, and even paresis in some cases. I don't see how things like epilepsy, stupidity, terror, amnesia, recklessness, batter (by extension), and confusion can be used outside of pure cheese. Even then, disrupt, paralyze, fear, indifference, pacifism all serve the same purpose of stopping things like channeled instakills or slowing people down. Outside of that, again, I don't get what you'd use them for outside of cheesing something. Indifference is probably the one truly useful one.

Eliadon

Illidan said:

Eliadon said:

Mind indifference after combo for both zealot and monk, too.

Oh don't get me wrong, I know there are some uses for a few things such as indifference as you mentioned, disrupt, blackout, and even paresis in some cases. I don't see how things like epilepsy, stupidity, terror, amnesia, recklessness, batter (by extension), and confusion can be used outside of pure cheese. Even then, disrupt, paralyze, fear, indifference, pacifism all serve the same purpose of stopping things like channeled instakills or slowing people down. Outside of that, again, I don't get what you'd use them for outside of cheesing something. Indifference is probably the one truly useful one.

Holdover from Achaea, mostly.

Tina

Most combat that people will get involved in these days is focused around group combat as well. For affliction classes most of the afflictions are the same across the various classes. Unique ones here and there, but by and large they all pull from the same pool. They also work towards a similar goal at the beginning to mid of the fight. Stack these afflictions to bury the one you want in the list, try and lock them then add on your finisher afflictions for your class specific skills, and so on. While not ideal you can share the same priority list across the affliction classes with only a few tweaks. It makes coordinating it for group fights and working and playing off each other much easier.

Now the limb classes we have are wildly different, they don't really have the same goals, and their finishers are vastly apart. And half the classes with limb paths also have affliction paths that just work better, and are easier to integrate into group combat so they don't even bother polishing the limb routes, can be a waste of time. It's harder to get limb classes to assist each other cross class for group fights, since they all want different things. Wayfarers need select limbs broken, Indorani need both arms and legs broken. Teradrim need bruising. Monks just need prone or again limb breaks for wrench. Shapeshifters need rips. And they don't share from a common pool of priorities or afflictions like the affliction class. They all h ave unique ways of applying limb pressure, have to build an offense from scratch for each one, no cross class sharing. It's a much more daunting task for those who don't want to spend forever coding, then affliction classes where you can just sub dstab for dslash or polespin, etc.

I like limb classes being a bit unique, but many people will take the easier path. And if you multiclass or share an offense between multiple people, affliction based is just so much easier in this game to do it with. And affliction classes even going with different priorities/routes, still almost always overlap and help each other out alot. If they cure for one path, the other gets ahead. Limb based classes don't do that. First it is a much narrower pool of possible end result afflictions you can give them. Limb damage builds off each other, but not breaking limbs. Can only break the limb once, and the only way to stack is to pile limb damage onto the same limb. And they just don't build as well. Having all their limbs broken doesn't help teradrim set up their instant. Having them bruised all over, or with a broken torso or head doesn't help many of the limb classes either.

Whole point here being for group combat affliction classes are easier to cross class coordinate and build off each other.

Keroc

Just letting you guys know I still check this thread. It's been insightful so thank you for all the replies

I have a rough idea of what needs to be looked at going forward.

Trikal

Going to have to 100% disagree with the stuff stated for group combat. Limbs meld really well as sure, they're going for different things, but they're all pressuring salves and can't overlap. Meanwhile you get a couple syssin who aren't setup with far more tracking triggers, offensive webcalls for their afflictions and the like and it's the same as fighting 1 syssin. It's the reason I've been able to 1v3 or 1v4 people who aren't setup properly, because they all slash me with the same two venoms at the same time and guess what still only 2 eats to cure out. Meanwhile 3 or 4 monks all hitting me? I can't parry that many different things if they all accidentally overlap and try to break my leg at the same time? Now it's mangled instead of just damaged. Limb classes in groups are WAY too strong for this reason, but it's kind of what we live with.

Dato

Yeah, limb classes are by far the best synergy you can get in groups, tracking can work easily to see what your teammates have broken/mangled and you can pile more on to that. Usually all limb classes do huge amounts of damage and this can add up to easy kills.

The only possible reason I see people not playing limb classes a lot is probably down to the difficulty in coding it, but then again I like them the way they are. Allows for people to fight without needing the coding ability, just make a bunch of aliases/keys and practice a little bit and you are set for group pk which is the bulk of fighting. Obviously to use a limb class in 1v1 pk would require some more experience but that sounds acceptable to me.

Edit: Also no extra lag caused by web calls for limb classes makes them nicer

Satomi

Limb Classes are pros of the echo command. I remember my Teradrim offense back in the day before pre-resto was a thing. The moment they fell down, it spammed me 5 lines of 'IMPALE NOW!' in bright, glittery text with lots of exclamation marks.

Simpler times. -stares forlornly at the behemoth of code lurking beneath Satomi- My code isn't even as big as 90% of the hardcore PKers out there, too..

Ishin

@Keroc - Pre restoration is aids and severely hinders what you can do with limb damage and stuff. Pls to delete and I don't even play anymore.

ETA: Tyrak Tirac or whatever his name was and I used to play Lycan class at the same time and we would utterly decimate people. It's not that limb classes are underwhelming, it's just that when someone can run and apply resto to left leg and smoke your whole setup it's super annoying. At least with affs you can pressure someone to stay in room if you setup right(loneliness). Been playing Achaea, and one of the benefits of a prep(limb) class is that the prep stays even if you leave the room, vs momentum(aff) type classes where you can leave and cure up to come back. Doesn't seem to be anything like that here.

Here it's run and cure, fully reset fight vs any class and gg start alllll over again. That and I feel like limb formula here is even more atrocious than it is there? Not sure tbh, you'll have to weigh in on that. Might hit someone's leg and do 2% limb damage, might hit them in another class and do 8% limb damage. Should probably look at making it be 5% limb damage straight up. Knights there can generally break in what like 10 hits? Makes offensive and defensive play more of a thing I feel like. 5am, going back to snooze for a bit.

Satomi

@Ishin They lowered the amount pre-resto actually heals to a flat 30%. I can't say if that matters much, as I don't play limb classes so I don't know when things actually 'break', but I imagine it was due to the rampant pre-resto cheese that limb classes have to dance around?

Someone else more qualified should confirm or deny, plz.

I can't remember if it was Aet or Achaea but one of them bases the damage to limbs on the damage of your weapon, with the amount they can take dependent on their total hp. That means that people with oodles and oodles of hp can take more of a beating to their limbs than a fragile little squishy.

Again, I'm mostly just talking about stuff I might have looked into years ago, or last week.. I just can't remember solid facts, just stuff I recall seeing/hearing about.

Ishin

I'm pretty sure both games use that in some form or fashion, @Satomi. I know whales in Achaea can take up to 14-16 'points' of limb damage before they break, where-as entry level kids can take as few as, I believe the baseline is, 7 or 8. Things break at the thirds. So 33% is level 2, 66% is level 3. I'm fairly sure it's the same here, though I know that some knight classes have different mechanics there to bypass it there.

For example, the 2h Knight spec there has a move where if you have like, 5-6 leg fractures they can double-resto-break both legs, which leads into imp-dmb for them. At the right strength, that's 96% hp damage unmitigated.

Despite pre-resto only healing a flat 30%(is it still lessened by HP amount?), I still feel that pre-resto is aids as fuck and needs to be deleted. I feel very strongly about that, to be honest, just like I feel that when you apply resto to a limb, it needs to check those affs WHEN YOU APPLY rather than just curing whatever aff is on that limb at time of balance recovery. For example, right now it's possible with good timing to apply before the break, get broken, resto heals the break, mending/tree, and it's essentially no time lost for the healer. That's shit, imo.