We're Revamping Our Curing -- Don't Panic Just Yet

Oleis

A while ago, Razmael put in an insane amount of work to genericize our curing and allow you to use messages and cure names from Concoctions and Reanimation interchangeably. While that was pretty great in itself, it also enabled a change we'll be making soon.

DISCLAIMER: YOU DO NOT NEED TO MAKE BIG CHANGES TO YOUR HEALING SYSTEM.

We're going to be unifying curing and dividing the means by which you all produce curatives. What this means is that living and undead will use the same cures: a mixture of pills, poultices, elixirs, and smokes. You can continue to use the old messages and cure names with no problem. Some afflictions, like limp_veins, are going the way of the dodo, but those changes are minimal. If you use autocuring, all that work happens for you. While we're going to offer a cheap starter pack to get you going and make sure nobody gets locked out at first, the two new mercantile skills will involve an element of scarcity, and you can expect to see some economic competition as we get started. There's a bit of overlap between the skills, but the ultimate goal is that no one will be entirely self-sufficient; you'll need to engage with the economy or another player to get your supplies.

As a reminder, YOU WILL NOT NEED TO MAKE BIG CHANGES TO YOUR HEALING SYSTEM. With interchangeable messages and the ability to OUTC and EAT the old cure names (but use the new cures), the transition is going to be pretty straightforward. Expect to see some more details as we prepare for release.

Oleis

Some broad benefits to this change:

1. Consistency. Players are able to change sides without huge investments of new curatives. Combat discussions are not just equitable but truly equal -- the same item for the same effect.
2. Approachability. Newbies (or newcomers to combat) aren't thrown off by two disparate (but ostensibly comparable) systems. We only need one set of vocabulary to talk shop.
3. Economic improvement. In the current system, we have unlimited supply and many one-stop-shop concoctionists. Curatives have almost no value. With an element of scarcity and the means of production split across two mutually exclusive mercantile skills, players must interact with one another to get what they need. This keeps gold flowing and introduces a level of competition among providers of curatives.

Aishia

Fyrren

Wooooo! Economy!!!!

Cordia

What will this mean for those who have artifacts related to the current trades? Such as the scalpel, or gloves.

Oleis

Cordia said:

What will this mean for those who have artifacts related to the current trades? Such as the scalpel, or gloves.

We're going to offer direct transfer from Concoctions or Reanimation to one of the 2 new skills. Artifacts will transfer accordingly (or be fully refunded if we don't have an equivalent -- still nailing that down). If that's not what you want, I'm offering a full refund of bound credits.

Tenshyo

I like this change, though I do have concerns.

My concerns are. if scarcity is to be seemingly a forced thing, what this will do to the economy of curatives.
While of course the prices are going to increase, more than likely, what concerns me the most is the "what ifs" a potential Novice lock outs.

And by that I mean: The availability of a novice being able to get what they need outside of the Academy and able to get things on their own without having to always rely on other, more experienced players. -- Now, I know that comes with being more experience and taking care of the newer players/new characters, but as we all can agree, it is prudent to be able to fend for oneself and take care of yourself too. If that makes sense.

And is this change a few months out? Just around the corner?

Seth

Cool idea.
Are you planning on reducing the number of shops in the game? Oversaturation and no cost to make the cures will always drop the price to nothing.

Leana

Since we don't have more details, I'm aiming these questions for future updates.

Oleis said:

While we're going to offer a cheap starter pack to get you going and make sure nobody gets locked out at first, the two new mercantile skills will involve an element of scarcity, and you can expect to see some economic competition as we get started.

Drawing an assumption on how these new skills will work, would both mercantile skills require each other to produce cures? For example, a raw material skill and a production skill. Or is it going to be a 'Living' version and 'Undead' version, but produce the same results?

Will this mean that combat will now have the element of potentially running out during a fight?

What will happen to the materials in our cache/fluidcache? Are they going to be involved or are they just remnants until the new system fully takes over and they'll vanish?

Oleis said:

There's a bit of overlap between the skills, but the ultimate goal is that no one will be entirely self-sufficient; you'll need to engage with the economy or another player to get your supplies.

The original goal of Mercantile skills was to accomplish the 'No one will be self-sufficient', since multi-class made it so you could be a Druid, Knight, woodcrafter, etc and never need anyone. I would say it worked even though it was never fully implemented (Mage Enchantment was never added). The skills were never fully finished to keep prices at a reasonable amount (Concoctions and Reanimation have a limitless supply).

Will the release of this also bring about Enchantment being added to Mercantile?

Oleis

Leana said:

Since we don't have more details, I'm aiming these questions for future updates.
Drawing an assumption on how these new skills will work, would both mercantile skills require each other to produce cures? For example, a raw material skill and a production skill. Or is it going to be a 'Living' version and 'Undead' version, but produce the same results?

Will this mean that combat will now have the element of potentially running out during a fight?

What will happen to the materials in our cache/fluidcache? Are they going to be involved or are they just remnants until the new system fully takes over and they'll vanish?

They'll target separate types of cures (e.g. making pills and elixirs in one vs. smokes and poultices in another). Only one or two abilities in each will require the use of the other. Existing cures will not be useful.

Leana said:

The original goal of Mercantile skills was to accomplish the 'No one will be self-sufficient', since multi-class made it so you could be a Druid, Knight, woodcrafter, etc and never need anyone. I would say it worked even though it was never fully implemented (Mage Enchantment was never added). The skills were never fully finished to keep prices at a reasonable amount (Concoctions and Reanimation have a limitless supply).

Will the release of this also bring about Enchantment being added to Mercantile?

We can't realistically make Enchantment a mercantile skill until we're able to revamp the Mage classes and provide them a full experience with three class skills.

Oleis

Tenshyo said:

I like this change, though I do have concerns.

My concerns are. if scarcity is to be seemingly a forced thing, what this will do to the economy of curatives.
While of course the prices are going to increase, more than likely, what concerns me the most is the "what ifs" a potential Novice lock outs.

And by that I mean: The availability of a novice being able to get what they need outside of the Academy and able to get things on their own without having to always rely on other, more experienced players. -- Now, I know that comes with being more experience and taking care of the newer players/new characters, but as we all can agree, it is prudent to be able to fend for oneself and take care of yourself too. If that makes sense.

And is this change a few months out? Just around the corner?

That's something we're looking to keep a careful eye on -- Ultimately, it's NOT a bad thing if novices are relying on the assistance of more experienced players. It's one of those things that helps build relationships and gives cities a good day to day purpose. However, we don't want things to be so prohibitively expensive for new players that they struggle to keep up.

The changes are VERY close.

Oleis

Seth said:

Cool idea.
Are you planning on reducing the number of shops in the game? Oversaturation and no cost to make the cures will always drop the price to nothing.

Not currently, but I do take your point.

Leana

What are 'pills' for?

edit: I just got it. Pills will replace herbs/slices.

Ilyon

Unifying the weird mess that is concoctions/reanimation would be very welcome to see. Bit worried about those scarcity comments, curatives are too important, having them more expensive or even unavailable doesn't sound like a good idea overall, even if it does help the game economy. Guess we'll see once the changes go live.

Oleis

Ilyon said:

Unifying the weird mess that is concoctions/reanimation would be very welcome to see. Bit worried about those scarcity comments, curatives are too important, having them more expensive or even unavailable doesn't sound like a good idea overall, even if it does help the game economy. Guess we'll see once the changes go live.

The goal is to give them some value, with the acknowledgement that they'll be a little pricy for the first couple months while people build a supply. The long-term effect is eventual devaluation as the supply starts to outpace the demand, but with the current unlimited supply from harvesting and reanimation, there's no possibility for scarcity.

Seir

Can I state something that may be unpopular to some folks, but I know PKers like @Eliadon will agree with on it.

One of the appealing selling points for Aetolia is that the curatives DON'T cost an arm and a leg and aren't prohibitively expensive to acquire. I understand the concept of creating scarcity for the sake of shops generating a profit and reducing the amount of supply that currently permeates the game. However, one of the reasons I prefer Aetolia is that it is far easier and less costly for my character to return than it is elsewhere. Case in point:

Eliadon informed me that coming back from inactivity in Achaea cost his character 20k in potions alone.

I can tell you that coming back to Lusternia cost me around 100k+ to re-stock fully.

Imperian? Probably around 20-25k.

This is taking into account inflation, reduction of gold, etc. Typically, trends in IRE typically indicate that the amount of gold circulating around increases, causing inflation and for costs of things to rise on average. Aetolia has reversed this a bit by reducing the amount of gold generated by bashing and what not. However, my concern is that with too much scarcity, we're going to make it either too prohibitively expensive for novices to get started OR it'll deter players from coming back because of how it costs just to get geared again.

I'm fine with a centralized means of healing for all organizations, as that expands the market for everyone and means that shops don't have to potentially cross an IC ethical line by providing Reanimation cures when the shop's owner is Duiran or Enorian. However, I remain concerned as to how much scarcity there will be. I actually think the fact that curatives are so inexpensive is a boon for Aetolia, not a curse.

Edit: Also, please do not reduce the amount of shops in the game. The demand for shops is high enough as is with only a limited number of them to go around.

Trikal

@Seir there is the WELCOMEBACK command to get yourself set back up if you've been inactive for a while. Although I do see your point, and hope that my massive amount of fighting isn't going to start draining all of my funds. Especially since I already tend to supply some of the lazier fighters on our side who only show up to fight here and there and don't bother gathering gold and buying curatives and such. Interested to see how this all plays out, and kind of not excited to learn new cures, but we'll see how it goes.

Emir

I've felt the introduction of fluid cache all but done away with the high(er of ye olden days) cost of torpor. Really only need to replace vials and enchants and rags, none of which are going to be directly impacted by these changes from the sound of it, seeing as how those are all made from different mercantile skills. 

Teani

I sent a message, but I'm repeating my questions here in the hopes of some answers:

You say old curatives will no longer work: what about curatives already put in casks? Will these be converted?
If some of said curatives won't need casks anymore, will there be other large-quantity artifacts for storing them?
- If so, will casks be automatically switched to the new form of storing (along with the curatives within them) or can we request to have them altered without an additional cost?
- If not, will we get a full refund for casks that are no longer needed and ingredients needed to make up for the lost curatives?

(Perhaps a partial return replacing lost curatives in the form of ingredients for new curatives? I'm guessing we don't want an immediate shortage of curatives.) Even though it is a marginal cost, dust actually requires gold and is used in some of the curatives.

Oleis

Teani said:

I sent a message, but I'm repeating my questions here in the hopes of some answers:

You say old curatives will no longer work: what about curatives already put in casks? Will these be converted?
If some of said curatives won't need casks anymore, will there be other large-quantity artifacts for storing them?
- If so, will casks be automatically switched to the new form of storing (along with the curatives within them) or can we request to have them altered without an additional cost?
- If not, will we get a full refund for casks that are no longer needed and ingredients needed to make up for the lost curatives?

(Perhaps a partial return replacing lost curatives in the form of ingredients for new curatives? I'm guessing we don't want an immediate shortage of curatives.) Even though it is a marginal cost, dust actually requires gold and is used in some of the curatives.

Artifacts will be converted to the new versions or refunded. Curatives will not.

Tirria

Will there be full return of lessons offered to people who have concoctions/reanimation that don't want to monkey with the new system?

Oleis

Tirria said:

Will there be full return of lessons offered to people who have concoctions/reanimation that don't want to monkey with the new system?

Yep!

Tenshyo

@Oleis And these starter packs, are they going to be free to players initially? Or will their be a Gold/CR/$$ fee for them?

Dato

To be honest, I feel that having expensive curing will also prove an additional barrier into combat, and I think we should be encouraging more pk. If as @Oleis said it will lead to eventual devaluation, then at the very least all it does accomplish is a stall in pk as people wait for the cures to eventually fall down in price.

I feel there are many ways to raise the economy, we have already seen a reduction in the amount of gold gained from bashing and shops are already limited as they are. I think perhaps looking at other avenues to fix the economy would might be a better approach.

But I can see how a slight rise in price would be manageable, if the second issue of scarcity would not be a worse problem. Because if someone is out of curatives, and can't get some ... their choices most likely would be limited to idle or quit.

Just my thoughts on the matter

Emir

The only part of the word 'scarce' that's bothering me is what that means in terms of active population and dependency. I'm not worried about the amount of ingredient/coms available, but what happens if the population dips for whatever reason, or not enough people pick up x or y skillset, etc. Is there even an etc? I think that might be the only two possibilities. Idk.

Rhyot

Everyone is talking about how this is going to "fix the economy" because it introduces 'scarcity'. I want to make a point... the economy can't be fixed unless the gold in the game is actually eliminated from the game through purchases like Gold Arti Auctions, prize bags (which REALLY REALLY REALLY should be looked at), housing expansions/modifications, and whatever other gold sinks I'm unaware of. Otherwise, it's not really fixing the economy... it's not even a bandaid.

Say there's 100 B gold in the game and you say that 'upping curative cost' is going to 'fix the economy'. You aren't really fixing anything because there's still 100 B gold in the game. Only difference is that it goes from player A to player B, swapping hands infinitely. Not even the yearly taxes to the cities help with 'fixing the economy' because each city has reward systems in place that REWARD said gold for doing X.

The bashing change was implemented because of how quick it was to gain gold. With the implementation of a new curing system, all it's going to do is hinder new players until they can run quests for a month with some bashing just to get a few basic curatives. Sure, you can throw the new curatives up to 200 gold per item, but that doesn't help anyone but yourself.

Even with a new system, it won't stop self-sufficiency or even adjust the economy. Married players can just work together to create their curatives, people with really good friends are just going to work together to create their curatives. This doesn't really eliminate scarcity or self sufficiency, nor does it really increase player-to-player interactions. It just forces people who don't have friends, or those not in relationships, or those not in cliques to just immediately go to a shop and cut off their arm while sacrificing their first born (for you roleplayers) to the shopkeeper just to pay for the curatives.

This doesn't fix anything really other than create a headache for coders, who then have to go in and change every line from 'eat kelp' to 'eat rootberry'.... or stop new players from being able to fully set themselves up with curatives, because let's be real here.... shopkeeps are stingy and will very likely throw the cost up super high... even if all you have to do is go out and spend two (2) hours gathering items and working with your super duper awesome friend to create the 10 elixirs.


Not saying that a singular curing system is a bad idea, I just don't think it's going to bring about the solutions you are aiming to accomplish and see. If anything, it'll create MORE problems for both admins AND players later down the line. Just my opinions.

Reux

Rhyot said:

Without details, I'm on the fence. I don't like Imperian's herbs being priced the way they are. I've repeatedly said cheap curatives is a major boon to Aetolia against the other IRE games.

But meh. Details. Can't nit pick without the nits to pick.

I don't mind the idea of a unified curing system, though I'd ask silly lore questions regarding it... once details are available.

Oleis

@Razmael raised a good point as we discussed your thoughts:

When we say scarce, we don't necessarily mean you'll be struggling to find cures. We have tracking in place that'll track cure input vs output, and will be making sure input is exceeding output, even if only slightly. This includes making herbs have a global population again (instead of every individual having their own instance of herbs to harvest), as well as increasing the overall time it takes to harvest the ingredients and produce the cures. The two biggest problems we identified with current curatives was (a) the unlimited supply, and (b) the low-effort required.

I'm using 'scarcity' as a catch-all for "a supply that is no longer unlimited", but it incorrectly suggests a shortage.

Seth

Hmm, global plant population will probably make me go for forging instead.

That will be insane to control with no limit to who can harvest.

Dato

Global harvesting is very punishing against those shop keepers who are not around at midnight or whenever the reset time is set for herbs. That means a group of people who are active at that time always can very easily clear all plants/herbs preventing others from being -able- to obtain them at all. Even if we limit how much a person can harvest, group of people working together can get a monopoly.

Will the respawn time for herbs be once/twice per day or will it be more frequent? And how will you account for the amount of herbs used. Because some of us spend lots of time in training rooms working on pk scripts and tactics, and likely this will mean watching how you spend your herbs.

Reux

Oleis said:

This includes making herbs have a global population again (instead of every individual having their own instance of herbs to harvest),

Unless the respawn timer is random (preventing automated and scheduled sweeps) or really frequent (like no one person can lock a zone down kinda fast), this is not going to be fun. And I'm never going to get moss again.