Regarding the 'no quest information' forum rule.

Mihaketi

Hi. So this came up on Discord and I wanted to raise it here for discussion.

To quote the forum rules:

1. No posting confidential materials.
This includes but is not limited to:
- Non-newbie quests and skill information.
- Any type of non-public documentation including, but not limited to, non-disclosure agreements and private Iron Realms employee or volunteer contact information.
- Confidential guild/city/other org information such as help files or private posts.
- Disclosing, discussing, speculating on, or hinting at alternate characters of any other player without his or her strict permission.
- Posting, or paraphrasing, the text of another person's issue or issue reply without his or her explicit consent.

My question (other than 'why is skill discussion permitted despite this rule') is, basically: why? What does this rule achieve, other than making it harder for people who are new to the game pick up on quests and things to do in-world? I feel like it's an inherited bit of cruft from a different era of the game, when secrecy was a tangible benefit to the apparent depth of the world, but with IRE pushing newbie retention and accessibility so hard these days, I can't see a purpose for it. It just makes it more difficult for new players to find things to do post-newbiehood without hoping that someone in their guild or city will take pity and show them the ropes.

Tl;dr: is there a meaningful reason that we can't document or discuss quests on the forums?

Rhyot

Because it ruins in game player interactions. If you could find every bit of information you ever need on forums, in Discord, through skype, etc.... what is even the point of talking to ANYONE in the game??

Mihaketi

Socializing? Crafting? Buying things, pursuing politics, playing the game?

Seriously, are you suggesting that the only time you speak to someone else ingame is to ask them where the gold quests are?

Lin

Rhyot said:

Because it ruins in game player interactions. If you could find every bit of information you ever need on forums, in Discord, through skype, etc.... what is even the point of talking to ANYONE in the game??

Twelve years of role-playing and I don't think any of it has ever meaningfully involved doing a quest.

Rhyot

I find your final question a bit aggressive and a tad bit insulting. But, be that as it may, I'll respond anyway.

Socializing is unnecessary. I hardly do any of it outside of giving someone a hard time or when someone approaches me about something, to include how to gain gold.
Crafting doesn't really require a whole lot of communication.
Buying things requires 0 communication now that there is the Directory in each city to help you find things.
Pursuing politics is a choice.
Playing the game is such a vague suggestion that I'm not even going to entertain the reasons behind communication in that regard.

In any case, you asked why we aren't allowed to make forum posts regarding gold quests. The answer is exactly like I said before. It would ruin in game interactions. Communication over which quests provide the best money, quickest money, etc is critical to rapport building and character interactions. Additionally, if novices/newbs could just jump on forums and find every bit of information regarding gold quests, there would be no need for them to ask on GT/CT how they could possibly gain gold, where to go to gain gold, who to talk to to gain gold, etc. It would eliminate that line of communication, which for a novice, is quite critical.

If you want to make a GHELP/CHELP file regarding every last gold quest in the game and do it from Point A-Z, then that's on you and you are well within your right to do so. At least then you could just refer them to GHELP NEWBTUBING and be on your way. I find some of the best communications are done when people are legitimately asking for help with where to hunt or how to gain gold.

Mihaketi

Rhyot said:

I find your final question a bit aggressive and a tad bit insulting.

It was a rhetorical response to your post. There was no insult or aggression intended.

Rhyot said:

Socializing is unnecessary.

I cannot understand let alone respond to this statement. Aetolia is a social roleplaying game. If you aren't socializing or interacting you might as well be playing something in singleplayer.

Rhyot said:

Crafting doesn't really require a whole lot of communication.

In the decade plus I've played Aetolia I have done vastly more communication with both novices and long-time players concerning crafting, curatives, tattoos, etc. than I ever have about gold quests or even questing in general.

Rhyot said:

Pursuing politics is a choice.

Literally everything in the game is a choice. I don't understand how this is a rebuttal.

Rhyot said:

The answer is exactly like I said before. It would ruin in game interactions. Communication over which quests provide the best money, quickest money, etc is critical to rapport building and character interactions.

I have never once experienced this as 'rapport'. It's a momentary inconvenience that is usually sorted out via webs or messages.

From your post I get the impression that our view of the game is wildly different and probably incompatible. I'm honestly quite confused by a lot of your responses there.

Rhyot

Mihaketi said:

I cannot understand let alone respond to this statement. Aetolia is a social roleplaying game. If you aren't socializing or interacting you might as well be playing something in singleplayer.

Aetolia is a roleplaying game. Again, not much socialization is required to play. I don't do much of it. I bash/pk. That's it. I don't roleplay a whole lot, I don't emote a whole lot, I don't have a congregation to sit and discuss the ins and outs of a religious order and why we do what we do. So for me, socialization isn't really a huge thing unless I'm approached first by a player who wants/needs something or when I'm talking to the one of the five people that actually like me in OOC tells.

This could also work to anyone not in a clique or has a group of friends to roleplay with. Socialization isn't really going to be a big thing.

Mihaketi said:

In the decade plus I've played Aetolia I have done vastly more communication with both novices and long-time players concerning crafting, curatives, tattoos, etc. than I ever have about gold quests or even questing in general.

I've been playing IRE for about 10 years and I can honestly say that most interactions regarding crafting/curatives/tattoos is relatively quick. "Can I get X?" "Sure." "Thanks." /end conversation.

Mihaketi said:

I have never once experienced this as 'rapport'. It's a momentary inconvenience that is usually sorted out via webs or messages.

I've never felt a novice asking about gold quests or how to gain gold is an inconvenience. Again, I very much so enjoy those conversations because it leads to so many different resolutions that can get the novice into so many more different areas than just focusing on one thing. Additionally, I try to do as little IG/IC building via OOC mechanics to include messages/webs.

Mihaketi said:

From your post I get the impression that our view of the game is wildly different and probably incompatible. I'm honestly quite confused by a lot of your responses there.

We probably very well do play the game wildly different. But I have had a multitude of new players and some handful of people who I assume are alts actually start discussions with me asking about how to gain gold, what they can do to gain gold, etc. These interactions provide a foundation through which they know, "Hey, I can talk to Rhyot and ask him X and he'll answer because he's mindful." That is a form of rapport building.

If I just sent a novice to the forums or GHELP NEWBTUBING that, in my honest opinion, is cutting a line of communication that can be used to help someone on multiple different avenues of gold gain and seems like I'm just not caring about them as a player and that they are an inconvenience. Sure, there are VARIOUS forms and reasons to communicate, and gold gain is one of them.

Mihaketi

I meant an inconvenience to the player asking, for the record, not to myself.

Teani

Admin has put in a very good system (CONFIG QUESTS_ALERT) to make it easier to spot quests. If you ask around in the game, people can send you to an area and you can walk around until you find someone with that kind of hint. It's a lot better than blurting out all the secrets on the forums. Asking people in the game also breeds more interaction (which is good for the game in general).

I know this is not a popular way of thinking, but some of us have worked damn hard to find these quests and we don't want someone to just be able to come on the forums and say "Hey, I need some gold, gimme quest info" and then get it without putting any effort into it.

The only time I could consider mentioning quests on the forums would be:
A ) to check if they are broken or not. Some quests are very old and sometimes NPCs have been killed off, leaving half a quest behind but no way of finishing it.
B ) if it is in a Newbie area, to help new players out (which is allowed)

Buford

Devil's advocate here, how would you rationalize your character having knowledge of how to complete a quest that you as a player learned of in a 100% out-of-character environment?

Sure, you as a player may know that you need to visit Todorf the Grand in Delve, find his lost cat in room vnum22345, know it only comes to you with food that can be purchased in the shop at vnum1123 after saying the words "cat food", then lured towards you by LURE CAT WITH FOOD, and subsequently brought back to Todorf for a reward..

..but how does your character suddenly know all of that? If you were caught by another player and asked in game "Wow, how'd you know exactly where to find that cat and the food it needed? How'd you know the shopkeeper sells cat food?" does it get brushed off with an "Ehh, lucky guess" type deal? If that's justifiable and allowed, where do we draw the line with bringing out of character knowledge into the game?

Disclaimer: This is just my two cents, not an administrative viewing or ruling on the matter or anything please don't sue me. Also please help Todorf find his cat guys, he's really worried.

Mihaketi

I don't justify knowing quests between alts as it is, I don't really see how it matters. Quests themselves often pop up arbitrarily and inform you how to complete them - do you need to justify that information being IC as well?

@Teani: don't you think that mode of thinking is a little exclusionary? What actual effort has been made other than spending enough time being part of the game community to have picked the information up? Are gold quests even 'secret' at this point, when asking someone even briefly ingame will get you several?

Jaymi

As a newbie myself, I have to say, Trikal teaching me quests, Vyxsis helping me figure out how to save Caela (dear gods, not cool) and several other interactions with people in dealing with quests has been very fun and rewarding for me. It's easy to build a rapport, as stated, over something built into the game, and that small thing can lead to longer conversations or, in the case of some quests, can really impact character or relationship growth. If I'd found this stuff on a forum I'd have missed out on at least one moment of incredibly satisfying RP and several new relationships for my character.

Buford

Mihaketi said:

I don't justify knowing quests between alts as it is, I don't really see how it matters. Quests themselves often pop up arbitrarily and inform you how to complete them - do you need to justify that information being IC as well?

These types of pop up notifications are predominantly (though some bizarre cases may exist otherwise) more along the lines of "Todorf has a quest for you to undertake! GREET TODORF to speak with him" and less "You complete this quest by doing A, B, C, D" as a collection on the forums would allow. You're partaking in the quest system without necessarily having all of the answers handed to you, thus still requiring the in-character function of learning in-game where to go and what to do to proceed from there. It may not eradicate the IC justification entirely, but it certainly does minimize it, which I think is definitely a perk in a game that prides itself as one centered on roleplay.

Leana

Jaymi said:

As a newbie myself, I have to say, Trikal teaching me quests, Vyxsis helping me figure out how to save Caela (dear gods, not cool) and several other interactions with people in dealing with quests has been very fun and rewarding for me. It's easy to build a rapport, as stated, over something built into the game, and that small thing can lead to longer conversations or, in the case of some quests, can really impact character or relationship growth. If I'd found this stuff on a forum I'd have missed out on at least one moment of incredibly satisfying RP and several new relationships for my character.

The mention of "fun and rewarding' is my entire point and I don't have to explain that thanks to Jaymi.

I consider researching ooc to be akin to cheating, but in the same category as 'acceptable' cheating where it doesn't affect anyone the player. We each have a different way to play Aetolia and some don't consider the quest system to be interesting to them and the level of help the QUEST_HINT system offers to not be enough. That's a personal choice. BUT, having them on forums/websites/whatever then just sending newbies to go there and get all the answers is not acceptable to me.

Like the Indyuk questline. A lesser was in the ice caverns, cutting who could participate in half. Rather than tell them how to start it to get it, someone decided to just blurt the answers in WEB with all the newbies, making the choice for them. Maybe they don't care, but I would be upset if someone told me there was this epic quest and then the answers for it. I just need to know it exists and where to go.

Toz

I hate quests as a gold mechanic and hope they die, and the malicious part of me dreams of writing and releasing an auto quester so the rest of you see how awful it is and all quests are always done.

It involves the strangest, arcane dance of greet/keyword spam, sometimes you go to do a quest and it's broken or maybe changed and there is no way to tell, items are missing or moved, or any number of things. There is no immersion (I hate helping the same guy find the same stupid spear every day. Nail it to his hand already), and it drives me nuts that it is now how you are supposed to make gold.

I guess to stay on topic, I don't think you can call quests 'immersive' enough to merit a consideration, @Buford. How do you justify your character being able to find the same guy's stupid crap every hour for the same effect? It's one of those things you just ghost over and suspend belief on anyway.

Mihaketi

I would like to note that at no point was there any talk about 'just send newbies to the forums'. If that was a consideration then doing it ingame via a scroll would be far more direct. The OP regards, specifically, the existence of the forum rule that entirely forbids discussion of the material.

I guess, to restate it in a different way, I want to ask why the forums specifically should be a no-discussion zone when every other OOC medium, including the game itself where the admin could easily police it, have no similar rules about quest content.

Leana

Mihaketi said:

I would like to note that at no point was there any talk about 'just send newbies to the forums'. If that was a consideration then doing it ingame via a scroll would be far more direct. The OP regards, specifically, the existence of the forum rule that entirely forbids discussion of the material.

I guess, to restate it in a different way, I want to ask why the forums specifically should be a no-discussion zone when every other OOC medium, including the game itself where the admin could easily police it, have no similar rules about quest content.

I wasn't clear, so I'll rephrase it. Think of spoilers for movies. A lot of people won't enjoy a movie if you spoil it and likewise won't risk going to a site/place with spoilers. If it's on the forums, based on how Forums are written, it'll be easy to gain this knowledge without ever wanting it. The point is Forums needs to be a safe haven, removed from the IC world of Aetolia, to discuss parts of it with real life knowledge.

Also, as it was stated by Buford, Forums are OOC and this extra-knowledge is hard to justify in character.

Oleis

Usually I'm not one to try to stifle discussion, but it's safe to say this isn't going to change.