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Aetolia, Latin and You.

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  • DaskalosDaskalos Credit Whore Extraordinare Rolling amongst piles of credits.

    Daskalos is a greek word. :(

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    Message #17059 Sent By: Oleis           Received On: 1/03/2014/17:24
    "If it makes you feel better, just checking your artifact list threatens to crash my mudlet."

  • DASKALOS BREAKS ALL OF THE IMMERSION OVER OHMYGAWD.

    >.> Seriously though. Daskalos sounds like a name in fantasy context, not a word.

    Also, I cannot talk at  -all-, on names that are words in other languages.
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  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    Ahaha. Christ, I'm in this thread cracking jokes and people are ranting at me. I've had too much beer for this.
    ErzsebetHaydyn
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Jokes or not, Valenae disagreed with a point and made her case against it. I don't see a reason to chastise her for it.

    Last I checked, forums were for discussions.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    AmaraValenaeCalipsoInfin
  • KiyotanKiyotan spectacular vernacular Summit of the Falconmount
    No one is chastising anyone. Let's drop it and stop derailing the thread.
    Some may say we've lost our way, but I believe we've not gone far enough.
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    Haven
  • ArekaAreka Drifting in a sea of wenches' bosoms
    edited January 2013
    EDIT: WRONG THREAD BUT STILL A GOOD IDEA

    [spoiler]HERE'S AN IDEA.

    To be able to copy entire configs between characters, not just colourconfigs!

    Unless that's already a thing and I'm being dense, which could very well be the case. [/spoiler]
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  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    Wrong thread, m'dear.
  • Why didn't you just move it? You can do more than troll as a mod, ya'know.
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    KiyotanAmaraValenaeLunaAldricDaskalosCalipsoInfin
  • edited January 2013
     
    Erzsebet said:
    The people against latin in Aetolia are more than a small selected minority. Whether we're right or wrong aside, I know twice as many roleplayers who think latin has no place in Aetolia than I do who are neutral, don't care, and/or think it's fine all together.

    There is no IC -source- for latin. It doesn't even go the way of Haernspeak to be called something besides Welsh ICly, if someone asks you what language your title is in in-game, there's no in-character answer for it. And that, more than anything else is why I'd consider straight latin titles, passwords, lore, whatever to be a line that shouldn't really be crossed.

    Yes, some of our language, being latin-based has strong similarities and/or borrowings from the latin language, and no, you're right in that we aren't going to get around that. But most people look at these words and think english/normal aetolian, not latin, so it's not so big of an immersion break.

    ETA: As an aside, Lin isn't on trial and doesn't need to sit here and rebuttal your anger if he doesn't want to. Calling him out personally in the way you did is a bit...edging towards the kind of behavior that gets threads closed.
    I'll start from the bottom and go on up:

    The point of my post isn't to angrily word vomit at Lin. I'm refuting the points made by Lin. No, he isn't on trial but if he states an opinion and I refute it then he posts again in the spirit of engaging me in debate, I'm going to answer his claims. No offense but there is no need to paint him as a victim. 

    As for the ideas presented in Lin's post: these are issues I've debate about for a lonnnnng time in Aetolia. As someone who is a non-com and into bettering myself as a roleplayer; this has been a recurring issue for me. In the conversations I've had with many Aetolians, I've never heard someone say '<random contribution founded in roleplay> breaks my immersion'. I hear that metagaming breaks immersion.and I have heard that drama breaks immersion and that inconsistency of the rules (i.e. people naming their characters Buttfloss and not needing to change the name or even letting combatants have full reign over issues), but I have yet to hear someone say, 'WHAT?! THIS GAME HAS LATIN TITLES AND ASIAN INFLUENCES?!?! PFFT! I'M BLOWING THIS POPSICLE STAND!' When we police rp in that way, not just Latin stuff but the act of policing rp to suit a small substandard, is toxic. I think 'policing' should only be in extreme circumstances.  

    I hear you on there not being a source. To be perfectly honest, though, I've never needed one. My suffix is one I picked out of a book in the guild library at the time so it had a perfectly acceptable grounding in the game. It hasn't been an issue from 2007ish when my character first got the title until now. I have never gotten negative feedback and no one has asked, 'hey, where did that come from?' It was a non-issue. 

    @Ages: Wow, this link is awesome. Thanks for sharing it


    "To be awkward or unkempt, to talk or move wrongly is to be a dangerous giant, a destroyer of worlds...any accurately improper move can poke through the thin sleeve of immediate reality." - Erving Goffman



  • I'd lay wager that no one's confronted you on it because they're pretending it doesn't exist and/or because they KNOW there's no source for it. Calling you out on that ICly is possibly even more immersion-breaking than you having it to begin with.  As for a book in a library being a viable source...unless it's a god/npc book, it's no more automatically viable without outside backing for lore and so on IMO than a player-made project and so on is.

    Shrug. My two cents as it were. I'm not saying you have to change it or any such thing, but I am saying I wish it wasn't allowed in general.
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  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    What's wrong with rolling with the punches and just running with it as your character would? "Oh, you have a made-up title in a made-up/unknown language? My aren't you troubled!" Is just one of many avenues you could take with the issue. Or if it bothers people so much then there is the option of avoiding/ignoring the person as you suggested. 

    The only issue I'd really take with it is if it was being called Latin in game. I don't believe I would practice it myself though because there is already so much source material that goes unused or not used enough as is that I don't see a need to pull that kinda thing into the game. However, since it's already there in guild names and guild skills, the Latin language could just as easily be linked to 'early Aetolian common' very much like the English language is in the real world.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    Valenae
  • ArbreArbre Arbrelina Jolie Braavos
    I don't like Latin in the game, but not enough to flip out about it.  I just think we, as a larger community, should simply work on slowly phasing it out, which I believe has been done, overall.

    Names are less of a big deal in my opinion, as names don't inherently have meaning.  People make tree jokes at me IC, and I mostly ignore them.  When ask, Arbre is some crap my mother made up because she wanted to be unique in a land of Tecpaztlectlmetals.

    I used to carry a french prefix.  I don't anymore, for a reason.
    ErzsebetXavin
  • Hey, those were awful/awesome french titles. Ahem.

    I've grown rather fond of my Kalsu dictionary as a means of rummaging up interesting titles and nicknames, just as an added point. I like that I can base whatever I use on an IC language. I don't find the use of other languages particularly disorienting to my sense of immersion, except when I recognize something, though I suppose I agree with the idea that gradually phasing them out would be nice.

    I would particularly like a language we already have to get a written version, instead of just hearing so and so speak Rajamalan or Atavian. Words we could use to get on with this whole everyone likes interesting titles thing. I want to be able to call someone a worthless sack of meat in Rajamalan.
    Erzsebet
  • Only problem with actual languages for the racial ones (besides having to actually -make- the languages) is that it would take effort and giving a damn to learn it. Which. Would be fun for the small percentage of us who like the linguistics, but RP-wise, if you said 'you're a worthless sack of meat' in a 'written' way instead of 'speak rajamala' >> 'you're a worthless sack of meet TO a rajamala or someone who speaks the language ICly that does NOT give that damn or want to make that effort, they should still understand you.

    And I don't think it'd be viable to have it auto-translate for you, either, alas.

    ...I still think languages for each would be cool, even if they -would- be a pain in the ass to create/put in. Though for creation we could just let Denaari loose on Aetolian linguistics for a bit. :p
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  • Yeah, I considered that after I'd written the reply, but then I thought maybe the help file for the language would open up when you learn it, blah blah coding and nonsense. Maybe just a whole new language then! I can hear the admin cheering now >>
  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    If you wanted to make a language reference, you could always add AB entries in the Linguistics talent for each skill. So AB LINGUISTICS FAE teaches you how to conjugate Fae verbs, how to trill and wear a pretty frilly skirt, etc. That would be hella fun.
    Amara
  • AngweAngwe I'm the dog that ate yr birthday cake Bedford, VA
    edited January 2013
    Runic is gaelic.
    Edit: Or so Haern told me.

    I think the idea that words borrowed from IRL languages is is immersion-breaking is silly. Swords are from the real world. So are pants. Are pants immersion-breaking?
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    HavenValenae
  • I remember getting chewed out once for using the word 'spartan'. That was kinda silly.
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Angwe said:
    Runic is gaelic. Edit: Or so Haern told me. I think the idea that words borrowed from IRL languages is is immersion-breaking is silly. Swords are from the real world. So are pants. Are pants immersion-breaking?
    I lol'd, have a like!
    Alaron said:
    I remember getting chewed out once for using the word 'spartan'. That was kinda silly.
    How'd you use it?

    • Haven says, "This is Sparta!"
    • Haven says, "He fights like a spartan!"
    • You have emoted: Haven clutches his shield close like a spartan as he makes his advance toward Arion.
    • Haven says, "Gather around, I got a story to tell you. Imagine a world called Sparta and they had these fierce warriors called Spartans that had Arion's valor, Haern's tenacity, and Damariel's beard! Too good to be true I know but..."

    The third option is really the only one I'd stand behind as being 100% okay.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • LinLin Blackbird The Moonglade
    Or there could be the other uses of spartan, meaning laconic, austere, brief, reserved in discipline, so on and so forth.
    AngweErzsebetIosyneLiancaIrea
  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    Lin said:
    Or there could be the other uses of spartan, meaning laconic, austere, brief, reserved in discipline, so on and so forth.
    ...wha? Really? o.o Learn something new every day.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
  • In the sense of a room being 'spartan' for lack of furniture? I can't see it being appropriate in any other way.
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    ErzsebetIosyneIrea
  • ...swords and pants are both english words. English AKA Aetolian is the base accepted tongue in Aetolia. It's not at all the same thing.

    I'm with Zun on that being the only version of spartan that's really acceptible, since in the other instances, sparta/spartan is referencing a realworld place/people, which has always been considered bad and is why we can't have like, Angoran Wool or Cashmere.
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  • edited January 2013
    Again, wasn't my intent to start a language war. However, since we are on the topic. I'd like to introduce you language "buffs" to something...

    -Prescriptivism and Descriptivism-

    Descriptivism is an approach that proposes the objective and systematic description of language, in which investigators confine themselves to facts as they can be observed; particularly, the approach favoured by mid–20c US linguists known as descriptivists. Prescriptivism is an approach, especially to grammar, that sets out RULES for what is regarded as correct in language. In debates on language and education, enthusiasts for one side often use the label for the other side dismissively.

    ---

    In linguistics, prescription or prescriptivism is the practice of championing one variety or manner of speaking of a language against another. It may imply a view that some forms are incorrect or improper or illogical, or lacking in communicative effect, or of low aesthetic value.[1] Sometimes it is informed by linguistic purism.[2] Normative practices may prescribe on such aspects of language use as spelling, grammar, pronunciation, and syntax. Linguistic prescriptivism includes judgments on what usages are socially proper and politically correct. Its aims may be to establish a standard language, to teach what is perceived within a particular society to be correct forms of language, or to advise on effective communication. If usage preferences are conservative, prescription might (appear to) be resistant to language change; if the usage preferences are radical, prescription may produce neologisms.[3]

    Prescriptive approaches to language, concerned with how the prescriptivist recommends language should be used, are often contrasted with the alternative approach of descriptive linguistics, which observes and records how language actually is used.[4] The basis of linguistic research is text (corpus) analysis and field studies, both of which are descriptive activities; but description includes each researcher’s observations of his or her own language usage. Despite apparent opposition, prescription and description can inform each other,[3] since comprehensive descriptive accounts must take into account speaker attitudes, while some understanding of how language is actually used is necessary for prescription to be effective.

    ---

    In the study of language, description, or descriptive linguistics, is the work of objectively analyzing and describing how language is spoken (or how it was spoken in the past) by a group of people in a speech community. All scholarly research in linguistics is descriptive; like all other sciences, its aim is to observe the linguistic world as it is, without the bias of preconceived ideas about how it ought to be.[1] Modern descriptive linguistics is based on a structural approach to language, as exemplified in the work of Leonard Bloomfield and others. Linguistic description is often contrasted with linguistic prescription, which is found especially in education and in publishing. Prescription seeks to define standard language forms and give advice on effective language use, and can be thought of as a presentation of the fruits of descriptive research in a learnable form, though it also draws on more subjective aspects of language aesthetics. Prescription and description are complementary, but have different priorities and sometimes are seen to be in conflict. Descriptivism is the belief that description is more significant or important to teach, study, and practice than prescription.

    ---

    See how this applies to Spartan and the two sides of that debate?

    So are you Pro or Des?

  • Tl;Dr Prescriptivism is the method Aetolia prescribes to in general.
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  • edited January 2013
    @Erzsebet Kind of but if it was too long for you to read how will you ever know?
  • ...tl;dr is rarely a serious comment. Just saying. Though you -could've- found a less rambling passage to explain it.

    Prescriptivism is what Aetolia adheres to in general.
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  • edited January 2013
    @Erzsebet Agreed, but I took the tl;dr as just what it means, like Prescriptivist does. You just used in a Descriptivist way, in that it is implied that I should know that, despite the literal meaning. See what I am saying?

    I've got something that will probably drive you up the wall.

    ---

    I know many of you were taught that you shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition, but it’s a myth. In fact, I consider it one of the top ten grammar myths because many people believe it’s true, but because nearly all grammarians disagree, at least in some cases (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).

    Here's an example of a sentence that can end with a preposition: What did you step on? A key point is that the sentence doesn't work if you leave off the preposition. You can't say, “What did you step?” You need to say, “What did you step on?” to make a grammatical sentence.

    I can hear some of you gnashing your teeth right now, while you think, “What about saying, 'On what did you step?'” But really, have you ever heard anyone talk that way? I've read long, contorted arguments from noted grammarians about why it's OK to end sentences with prepositions when the preposition isn't extraneous (1), but the driving point still seems to be, “Nobody in their right mind talks this way.” Yes, you could say, “On what did you step?” but not even grammarians think you should. It sounds pedantic.


  • @Ages I mean absolutely no disrespect to you when I say this, but the above paragraphs sound more like pretentious ramblings than coherent arguments for your point. I'm also not entirely clear on what your point is, since it's completely off topic and seemingly chosen at random.
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  • HavenHaven World Burner Flight School
    :|

    I don't know but I feel like that's going a bit too deep into the issue and making it more than it is with prescriptionism and descriptionism.
    ¤ Si vis pacem, para bellum. ¤
    Someone powerful says, "We're going to have to delete you."
    havenbanner2
    ErzsebetAmara
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