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"The smell of dusty fur, sweet smoke, waiting and patience, a thing that time cannot kill. The moth that candles won't burn."
I research the options, and don't see many. The syssin look like sneaky rogues and that's not my style. I'm vaguely aware that multiclassing exists so I can play whatever class I want to, but I'm a newbie. I want the guild experience and it isn't available, so I'll look at different cities.
I'm not saying every city needs 5 guilds to choose from, but they definitely need something for each basic playing style.
As for the people who give up and walk away because they aren't catered to, they'll leave and that's fine. If they can't operate within the confines and expectations of the game, that's not a reason to compromise the playing experience of 50 or so people, it's proof that the person in question should play a game that closely aligns with their expectations. Please don't misunderstand me, if abuse is happening I agree with @Faerah that it needs to be dealt with swiftly both out of respect for the person experiencing it, and for the betterment of the community as a whole. I think it's important to point out, though, that not all conflict is abuse, abuse is not healthy conflict. Discouraging healthy conflict is, however, abusive because it prevents potential growth for the individual, the organizations, and the community as a whole all for the sake of a cool kid's comfortability level. It's not so much that people want to stop engaging with a certain person or group, it's that people are dropping out of the league all together because someone took a shit on the ball and buried it in the field - there isn't a game to play. I'm not trying to be an ass but I think the community needs to stop registering kneejerk reactions stemming from bruised egos as valid critique.
(Spinesreach): Xiuhcoatl says, "Oh man, grab the children-corn. This is gonna be good."
From my point of view, the reason that it is such a big issue is because the guild is still (From my experience) the core of the people you will interact with and the role you play. I agree that multiclassing has, for the most part, improved things considerably. My concern isn't so much for wanting to be a Illuminai in Duiran or a Sentinel in Enorian, but the cities themselves being an active barrier to entry for guilds, either for new players who don't find the new city appealing or old players where the city simply has a grudge which can be maintained. Thankfully, I've not heard a lot about about this recently (Other than Arbre's Spinesreach example earlier in the thread).
There is also the secondary question that makes it more difficult to org hop since the requirement is to go from leaving a guild to join another to leaving both guild and city. Currently, there is the possibility to transition. Say for example, I join the Sentinels but remain in Enorian. This acts as a good point of transition to leave Enorian and join Duiran because I decide "Hey, I like these people". Of course, you have that same transition without a city, but to join the guild you want to join, you also have to leave the city that you are indifferent/positive about.
I don't know about the Illuminai, but I think to some degree that most guilds have the mentality that guild > city, which is what tying the guild to the city could stifle. Again, in my view, the guild is the people you will interact with daily (Newbies and old hands) and build up most familiarity with. The cities are much bigger and it's harder to make those connections.
I agree that going forward, there are going to be casualties and that is necessary for the health of the game. My concern is that a longer term casualty ends up being a guild itself.
Again, I don't want to say I hate the idea. I've seen enough of it to see some positives, but as a player, I am very much indifferent about it. I may just be getting old..
A "rar rar warrior" class could perhaps eke out an existence in Spinesreach as an individual, but a guild matching what you're looking for simply doesn't belong in that particular city. The closest you'll come to it is probably the Sciomancers, but their "rar rar" aspect is based in intellect and magic, and the Syssin (while perfectly capable of making a show of force) are fighters who live in the shadows and prefer finesse and precision.
If you have multiple RP styles you're pursuing but they clash with each other in the framework of the lore that exists, don't be surprised if you have trouble carving a niche for yourself. We can't dilute the lore by catering to every possible player desire that might crop up, either. An example: I would probably make Fezzix a shapeshifter, but that means the grecht in the Dehkay Plateau would dislike him, so I won't pursue that avenue.
Were the Atabahi meant to be militant? Wolf packs have structure and heirarchy, but there are plenty of organizations that have structure without being militant. Every city has a "militant" guild in it, those being the Templars, Sentinels, Syssin, and (originally intended) Carnifex, and putting two of these guilds in one city is clumsy.
I was never around when the Atabahi existed, so I don't have a frame of reference or any insight as to how well they fit the theme and why they were disbanded, whether it was for mechanics or for lore reasons. After speaking with Oleis on the direction of the city -right now- and -in the immediate future-, however, it's harder to justify the existence of an overtly vicious, savage warrior guild.
I/Faerah *loved* the Atabahi Guild. I always viewed them as the Syssin's sister Guild. The Syssin did the intel and the Atabahi were the tanks and both Guilds were pretty dark/shadowy but not really EVIL RA RA thematically. So again, do I think that a warrior/tank class could fit in Spinesreach? Yes. Clearly. It did and has for a long time. That's just not the direction we're moving in now, which I understand sucks a great deal for the players of the Carnifex. I know those players to be incredibly passionate, resilient, and strong-willed, so I know whatever project they move on to will succeed... And I think all the flack they've been receiving for being upset and for trying to defend the position they held for a long time is entirely unfair.
The position they held was fine for the Spinesreach/game that existed up until now. Conditions are changing and so that has changed. But I think to retrofit the story as though they never belonged is to really unicorns on a legacy they have built entirely unnecessarily. That isn't really where the discussion should be. The discussion should be "thank you for your RL years of helping Spinesreach kick ass, it sucks what's happening with your Guild but we really look forward to seeing how you turn these lemons into the best damn tasting lemonade ever."
Moving on... In Aetolia, Syssin is a very strong and viable combat class. That's weird, since rogues tend to be more of a support class, but it does make it so that gamewise, the Syssin can very well be the frontline of Spinesreach. It doesn't mesh well with the standard idea of DnD "combat warrior classes," but such is the unique world that is Aetolia. If you don't believe that, I really recommend you fight with @Trikal and @Fezzix, or have a go with the Syssin in a group format. Add the Sciomancers to that equation (...and whatever they end up doing with the Cabal class revisions) and Spinesreach will be well-protected.
Edit: Also, in a game like this any one of us can draw the short straw at any point. Showing a bit of empathy for the people who drew the short straw, regardless of how much you support the under-arcing reasons for it, just seems to me to be the right thing to do.
The Carnifex don't have the same sort of connection with Spinesreach through that kind of lore. They have their connection with the Infernals, Knights of Death and Darkness. The Infernals were necromancers, as are the Carnifex, working with the souls of people, and they too relied on fealty, so there's nothing new there. They put aside Chivalry for a more savage approach when they evolved, still connected to the Iron Citadel in the city of Undeath. They are still dreadknights.
(I know some of you involved in this discussion already know this, but I'm bringing it up for the benefit of those who don't know much about the Infernals.)
As Fezzix mentioned, there would be an obvious imbalance if there was a switch. Pairing the Sciomancers (who would probably have been the ones to switch) with the Teradrim, would not come close to matching the combination of Carnifex and Syssin. And the conversations that have been held with Oleis recently puts the Sciomancers quite firmly in Spinesreach. Not as a "rar rar warrior class", but something more sophisticated.
Even if Spinesreach is shifting towards its more polarized "intellectual" theme, the Atabahi lore is there, it's solid, and although there is no official guild for it, I would completely understand the formation of at least a clan. As I understand it, @Xenia is already following something in that vein?
It sucks having the rug pulled out from under you after all the work you've put into something that you call your own, but I hope that the affected players can shift accordingly, and I want to help support them as they do so. That being said, I intend to have Fezzix act appropriately to his character in game.
My main character in Aetolia is a die-hard Teradrim, Ivoln follower, Undeath or GTFO kind of guy and while the idea of changing it that living could join Bloodloch would kind of mess up the RP I have invested years into I think that the idea of getting rid of Undeath completely would be a great option. While it would mean a lot of changes to things, it could simply be that in place of Undeath you simply have a Shadow-tethered state of being like being Soulless or such, applying to all Shadow-tethed citizens or people using Shadow-tethed classes.
This would get rid of the idea of conflicts, in my mind, based on the roleplay of a lot of Bloodlochian players who are against living. I see that the Admins have tried to turn the focus of the world away from Undeath-Vs-Living and shift to Shadow-Vs-Spirit but the problem I have noticed is that it has never truly shifted 100%, at least not for entire tethers.
For example, I find that the changes to the Teradrim's direction are awesome but incomplete and have left a lot of players having to kind of improvise their place in the world. The idea that the Teradrim are these allies to the guardians of the prisons of the Sorcerer-Kings has a lot of potential to be great but is very lacking within the guild.
But with this rises another issue that the Teradrim are still largely paying a lot of respect to one specific God, Ivoln. If there were to be a change that Undeath ceases to exist (since it would have made sense to have undeath end when the sundering of Dhaivol happened) it would allow the Teradrim to be less of a religious thing and shift 100% to the Earthen spectrum, being focused on the whole Sorcerer-King and Azvosh theme.
I would love to see guilds be smaller organizations within a city that all have an important role to fill within their city and have some mechanics that force the guilds to work with each other on a regular basis, aside from just foci stuff.
The pouring of blood on the dolmens, for the Teradrim, for example, could also be changed to be changed to this:
It could be changed to have it be player-by-player, where each player has to pour the blood in order to ever achieve the earthen-form and they need to regularly refill a gauge which is drained when using the earthen-form. This would get newer players in the guild more immersed within the lore of the guild and the inner-guild functionality since a lot of newer members simply don't know what purpose the guild has aside from thinking rocks are cool as hell.
I would love to see this kind of changes come into the game because I love the idea that the guilds would simply be different factions that are loyal and devoted wholly to a city and its ideals, with their own ideals working together rather than conflicting and having nothing to do with each other. But that's just like... my opinion man. Sorry for the long, convoluted, and poorly arranged post, and the bad English, and being totally centered around Teradrim but that's kinda all I am these days. Strength in Earth, baby!
Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
I look forward to seeing what comes of the meeting and hope I can give some useful input when the time comes. I have a lot of different ideas when it comes to the Teradrim and hope that they can be useful to you all during this time of change.
Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
Then again, it would be nice if in the upcoming major conflicts everyone played a different part. Like undead couldn't be hurt by ylem weapons because they don't have a spark. Likewise, they can't use them because of the same reason, hence needing the living.
Undeath is a cool mechanic and adds a lot of flavor to one side of the game but it is complicated as ever.. I remember a time when several Vampires were going on about how Undead are second-rate citizens in Bloodloch and some considered them to be slaves. These days I see more vampires around than straight-forward undead but that may just be due to multiclassing and wanting vampire RP in the houses and such.
As well, it seems that these days there are less reasons not to go full on vampire rather than stay undead. I could be wrong at this moment but I recall something about vampires being able to sunwalk no problem these days.
Avatar of Fyrren drawn by the amazing Sessizlik.
Why bother when you can play a Carnifex (living or undead) and go a speed route, Teradrim (living or undead) and no require artifacts or balance enhance, Sciomancer (living/undead), or Indorani (living/undead) because Tarot is awesome. I'd say Cabal and Syssin, but I think you get the idea. Praenomen, while it can be a strong class, is also an intricate class that requires a heavy upfront cost to be usable for the average player.
As it is, Bloodloch is now accepting living people to help bring life back into an otherwise decrepit city that (by rights) should have been destroyed a long time ago due to the lack of interaction among the players and the lack of anything being done BY the players.
And the reasons for that are usually related to Bloodloch became SO heavily oriented around vampires and seeing Undeath/Living people as worthless/subpar that players were backed into a corner. Dominion laws aren't exactly.. kosher with doing anything, with anyone, that isn't a vampire or undeath (even with Undeath it's sketchy!)
There was a time when a living character could DO things in Bloodloch and while being seen as a lesser citizen or whathaveyou, they were still able to do what they wanted to do. And well... over the years as players became MORE and MORE, and MORE strict seemingly on what they would allow.... Bloodloch died.
As @Rhyot can attest, I've long heard that Bloodloch as a whole - as far as RP - has just been a ghost town. You'd get better luck RP-ing at a cricket. I've heard the same things even from old Keeper's and House Heads.
From the outside: Bloodloch cannot afford staying to a STRICT UNDEATH/VAMPIRE ONLY stand point. As Rhyot said above, if someone isn't wanting exactly to be FORCED into Undeath/Vampire they can play literally every class but Praenomen on the Shadow side and be perfectly fine somewhere else.
@Erebos also as Rhyot said, and what I'm getting at here, is that is what Bloodloch has been doing for awhile, and... well it's not done them any favors. (Again from the outside looking in)