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Class Resources/Aishia M-M-MULTIPOSTS!!
This discussion was created from comments split from: Artifact ideas.
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Even if it is possible to recharge it, it's not really an argument against something that offers an expansion to the amount of power that an angel has anyway.
If a class isn't balanced with infinite energy/souls/whatever, it isn't balanced at all.
That being said #freevampires #killthenoonsun.
At the end of the day, a game is a game, and it should be fun and fairly convenient to play. Chores like upkeep like this are a big negative for classes built around those pools.
There are ways to keep the atmospwhere while removing the worst parts of micromanagement that those resources require.
Honestly guys, feels like you're complaining just because you can.
Anyways, I look at it sort of like this: It's trivially easy to get, but the method you get it through is an irritating frustrating time sink with no challenge or no real atmospheric/RP value. You summon souls out of the thin air and then you spam soul cull/soul strike for 5 minutes. It's absolutely awful to do manually if you're a new player who doesn't automate it, and it's a 5-minute tabout if you do.
So it's awful. You could add way more atmosphere if you just turned it into a short ritual that people would actually pay attention to as opposed to "a bunch of souls appear! you hit them with your bardiche!" every 3.72 seconds for a few minutes.
In reality, they don't really do much except create fights of attrition. And, yes, while it's good that fights can eventually have their end. I don't particularly see the value in them ending because of a largely pointless resource pool. The only real argument I can see for endurance and willpower is that they act as a means of limiting someone from bashing for extreme periods of time, but people are already able to do so and it doesn't take much to recover WP/EN.
Edit: Btw, this should probably be split into its own topic now in ideas since it's off topic.
Edit 2: I'm also very much willing to come up with ideas for substitute mechanics on tattoos and abilities that resolve around restoring or enhancing those two resource pools if it means getting rid of them.
I ultimately think that the argument of what constitutes an OP mechanic is always going to be subjective as well. Syssin is capable of dishing out a very effective affliction-based offense and has great utility options as well that are subjectively better than what a Shaman has depending on who you ask. However, A Syssin's main drain is in the form of willpower, but it's not immediately noticeable. I can also make the argument that it doesn't make sense that Phase has a completely negligible drain in endurance, but simultaneously allows you to do as much as you can do in it while Lightform/Blackwind have a substantial increase in how much willpower is being drained and are far more limited as to what you can do. It doesn't really make sense and seems fairly arbitrary in its application.
The only time attrition should come into play between two individuals is if one of them runs out of supplies.
The only time attrition comes into play and should come into play is when one person is pushing hard for attrition to be a thing. As far as supplies go, if you run out of supplies before you can kill someone, you weren't prepared for the fight and deserve to die for it. You can't attrition herbs against a competent fighter before they can kill you. Period. You can attrition willpower or endurance if you work towards it, it's a reasonable kill tactic that requires you to have a long fight, but it's still a tactic that removing just will lead to more hours and hours long fights. Draiman and I could fight syssin vs mage for 3 hours and never kill each other if willpower wasn't a thing.
Seriously though, you can't make those arguments. The drain isn't negligible for phase or weaving at inept philo/fitness and level 80 without a mountain tat or owl tat. Boom now someone is considering trying to trans 1-2 mini's, consider an arti tat, transing tattoos, buying stamps, or a chalice to get to end game faster, maybe some chocolates, and Razmael gets to make his house payment and keep his job.
Souls, essence, yadda, are not limiting factors in 1v1 unless your class has terrible lock down or two bads are fighting each other. Going in unprepared is your fault.
ETA: Neither is wp/end. Do everyone a favor and but the seemingly UNLIMITED supply of hearts/bullseye's out there.
Group is a whole different story and you could argue that anyone just using 2 skillsets is just as efficient as the tri trans dude.
Sorry for the chaotic post, on my phone, proof reading is annoying, but I'm so against this it hurts. And I'm a vampire main ffs.
Edit 2: holy fk ninja'd by Trikal by like 20 minutes. Phone forums is so hard
When you reach that point of low WP, are you throwing your quarterstaff at them to keep up offensive pressure? You advised me to give it a shot once upon a time, and I got to say, best change I -ever- made.
I also think that there's some confusion between the reality of choice that you're offered. There will always be a meta in terms of what abilities are effective and what isn't. Half of the stances that Monk has are ultimately pointless, but they're there anyway as a "choice". Reality also is, even if a Monk utilized both pinch and leg block at the same time, they probably still wouldn't be that overbearing. Hell, if you DID force them to make a choice, I'd argue that you're actually making PvP a more nuanced field by forcing people to utilize competitive abilities for the situations that suit them best, which kind of runs contrary to what you're arguing. Also, if you're getting "hours" and "hours" of long fights, that suggests a balance issue with classes being either unable to pursue an effective kill route or some classes being too strong defensively. The argument that somehow endurance and willpower draining is the effective, appropriate answer to that kind of situation is not really a positive one and one that you should actively seek to change. Given that other games have gotten rid of both endurance and willpower to great success, I'm probably going to have to chalk up a lot of these fears to be relatively baseless in fact when there are plenty of successful examples as is.
On a slightly unrelated tangent, I'm having a strong sense of deja vu when I suggested a long time ago that Aetolia make our first aid system akin to Imperian's server-side curing and I was immediately lambasted by folks who would say that it would "end PvP as we know it", "simplify things too much", etc. Here we are and the sky hasn't fallen and it has become easier for people to get introduced into PvP.
@Draiman: We don't balance around people who have Inept or anything like that anyway. We balance around people being transcendent in their skill sets. As someone with Trans Fitness, I can stay indefinitely phased pretty much forever and endurance never once will become a concern.
@Trikal: Comparing health and mana to endurance and willpower is an apples and oranges comparison. Health and mana are actually critical vitals. Endurance and willpower are not. All they really do is just create fights of attrition where one class will have an advantage over the other because of completely arbitrary determinations on skills and respective drain.
In any event, I'm not really buying the idea that the sky is going to fall if we removed endurance and willpower because it hasn't in any of the other games that did it. Just like the sky didn't fall and PvP didn't magically become simplified just because we made first aid on a level comparable to server-side curing elsewhere.
Edit: If long fights are a concern, expand the battle hunger mechanic to be utilized outside of the Hunting Grounds.
Its not a very great way to fight, but it is a viable mechanic and then you get to say you killed Vampire X.
Again, some classes would be way too unbalanced if you put their drains into mana because of the way some classes work in regards to mana pressure. Let me see a shaman fight a luminary when suddenly their oaths are mana heavy and I will laugh as you get absolved in 20 seconds.
Actually when was the last time you fought, why are you even telling me how combat works?
I'll likely post the suggestion to classleads. And yes, I've run out of willpower mid fight. I've also been fighting in games that have gotten rid of it and, allow me to assure you, that they're much better off without it.
We'll agree to disagree, however. I've also fought enough to know how arbitrary willpower and endurance are, which contrary to what you might think, doesn't really require someone to be the most active combatant in the world. Pretending that an understanding of combat mechanics requires someone to be continuously active is also vastly irrelevant unless you're directly discussing 1v1 combat, of which willpower and endurance are one small facet of. However, you really should probably stop trying to make this a personal matter when I'm simply just debating you.