House Merging...

Aarbrok

We did it with respect towards people as far as I saw, we thanked them for their time in the House and the education and diversity they brought, I personally withdrew my guilds treaty and made a post saying I would not impose the choice of accepting the blood, but if they sought the information that representatives of House Lunare could answer.  That being said I could not support a treaty between the two organizations without disrespect towards the Primus therefore I had to absolve it. 

The living members I did speak to thanked me for the same in return before leaving or being removed, and said it "was nice to see the vampires outside of what is commonly believed amongst the living"

So in essence I think if anything the opportunity was fun for those who did desire a bit of unconventional roleplay.  Challenging for those who were shamed by their own blood for doing so, but ultimately alot more than what people believed it to actually be.

Fenrir

I think it's good you had a positive experience come out of this.

It just boggles my mind that people actually thought having living people in Houses was anything less than preposterous. But that's my opinion.

Ezrax

Not to get anyone's goat or anything, but basically staff offered a reasonably gentle reminder to us all that Undead Houses are, well, special vampire-associated matters unique to the Undead side for a reason (obtaining the Blood Gift and participating in a like-minded vampiric community). They're not, as we began to treat them, a cool clan for all our buddies to hang out in regardless of Guild.

Erzsebet

I kind've wish we'd been given at least a week to adjust to the living thing before it started to screw us--there are a couple living people still in Ve'kahi who are willing to become Vampires--they just need to talk to some people about it first as fits with their characters.

I'm also still a little dubious about the impending new organization the news post said Abh is going to create--he didn't mention it in the meeting if I recall correctly.

Overall though, I'm -really- pleased with this change and think it's to the benefit of the game, even if it -does- wreck my ability to sleep for the next 10 weeks or so.

Four houses is a much more sane number, though one wonders how long it'll take people in houses that were made into clans to leave and flock to the houses that are still legit to have the desired effect of consolidation, here.

The interaction with Abhorash was fairly interesting, on top of it all. Much awesome-kudos to whomever is playing him.

As an aside, @Razmael What happens to the gold, house credits, house halls and so on, if a house is turned to a clan?

Damonicus

I think living should be allowed in houses, but only with specific conditions. Servants, food and about to turn. They should not be allowed to be past hr1 and if they are promoted, then they should count as negative. I personally like the idea of having a living member or two in the house to do the "dirty" work or be beckoned by their "master" as food.

Kerryn

Damonicus said:

I think living should be allowed in houses, but only with specific conditions. Servants, food and about to turn. They should not be allowed to be past hr1 and if they are promoted, then they should count as negative. I personally like the idea of having a living member or two in the house to do the "dirty" work or be beckoned by their "master" as food.

They don't need to be in the House for that. Every house has a million clans, let them make a 'food' clan and place them there. Besides, you shouldn't allow the 'food' to see the inner workings/squabbles/what have you of the Blooded. At least in my opinion.

Xavin

I feel like the problems start when there's more than a handful of living people. For example, when Xavin was head of Bahir'an, we had a couple of living people in the house that held druid class. It was rare for them to come around at all, but they made themselves useful, particularly when we found ourselves in a bit of conflict with the Druids. There was also some decent roleplay behind having them there.

But when it stops being one or two and you start treating them like they are equal to the vampires in the house, it starts to trample on the roleplay behind houses.

Erzsebet

I dunno about trampling the RP behind Houses, necessarily. Ve'kahi has always had living in it. We usually have at least one Syssin, a couple necromantic sorts, and an Infernal/Carnifex or two. One of the people who's been in the house almost since its inception as a clan was a Syssin. But then, our stance on living members is part of what made us rogue, too. And we've always treated them on fairly equal footing, for that matter, Sryaen was Padishah for a spell and no one saw anything wrong with it (at least internally) because there wasn't a taboo against using tools that worked --any tools, be they living, undead, or vampire, to make the House successful.

Voltaire only really started taking them because we needed more people to be around to answer newb questions and couldn't get enough Vampires to wake up and do things other than idle. Lunare has been doing it every other HouseLeader since Kadvar ran the place, for what I assume are reasons--not privy to that, but I wouldn't say there's no RP behind at least most of said decisions.

That said, one of the reasons I'm rather fond of the way this is being taken--even though I'd rather have not had to kick out so many people--particularly ones who have thoroughly earned their place and rank in the house, is because we were given this choice within pretty much the ONLY way it'd be IC for us to comply with it. If it'd been done any way but this--we'd have been stuck trying to work around the handicap of having living. As it is, the only living we have left are the ones who are seeking the blood as fast as possible, and the rest were removed or asked to leave because, 'Well, we value you guys, we really do, but... survival." Which is -very- IC for the way Ve'kahi has been. It's sparked quite a bit of RP and so on, in that vein.

Aarbrok

For it being such an issue about Lunare having a few sorted living members earlier this year, it sure seems like having living members was not so abnormal amongst the Houses.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose! :P

Arbre

I made Athesia change the laws in Voltaire so that I could join as a mortal Azudim - I think I was the one most offended when I ended up Regent as a mortal who wouldn't carry Voltaire in her name.  Kiralla may have changed the laws between here and there, though, before Voltaire was eaten.

Ezalor

 

Aarbrok said:

For it being such an issue about Lunare having a few sorted living members earlier this year, it sure seems like having living members was not so abnormal amongst the Houses.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose! :P

Yeah, this was the biggest problem in the old Imperium. Sarita, Kylira, Arthas, and I were all very much into root vampire RP and completely against any sort of living. We were the ones trying to purge all the living and stuff.

Then it turns out Bouchard doesn't really care and Arthas gets replaced by Grimdale in Nebre'seir. Salmissra (Grimdale's fiancee) is very vocal about being cuddly with living so it's down to just the three of us, then Kylira goes perma afk so it's just Sarita and I left. Meanwhile Lunare starts threatening the new Bouchard guy with violence if he doesn't start loving the living too. He's too scared to act.

I want to say it really shook me that it took admin Abhorash coming in and smacking everyone down for people to understand that vampires and living don't mingle. It's the entire basis of the race to be superior to mortals, to sometimes tolerate but never welcome them. One or two rogue vampires holding that "we love living" sure, but entire Houses starting to define themselves on that? Ugh. It even got to the point where those who kept to the anti-living stance were being outnumbered. Aetolia was BUILT on vampires vs living conflict in the beginning.

Still though, guess it lets me brag that D'baen has been the only House to never accept a living person before. Hell, I don't think we've ever even taken in an Undead before though the laws were changed to allow them at some point. I might be wrong on this though, I did take a 1-2 year hiatus off Aetolia. But until someone corrects me, I will continue to claim it so!

Mastema

99% of the Bouchard and Lunare thing was done ooc by four people, without the House even being made aware. In honesty they inducted and removed people to gain the votes they required to dissolve the House without the majority of its members being made aware until it was "almost" to late. And even then they kept trying to remove leaders through forced elections back to back. In terms of the ooc stuff it was very under handed and I will not name the people but I am sure if we think about it we can figure it out pretty fast.

Due to this stuff Bouchard has now lost a large chunk of its players, with five of them now refusing to return and instead play alts out of rage. Pretty sad really if you ask me. @Ezalor I have been in Bouchard a few real years now and we have never had living either :P

Zhukov

Well, there are circumstances when living can join a House and rpwise everything is fine. Just as long as they don't outnumber the vampires. But then again, these days with undead its different. I remember we had a couple of mortals in Nebre back when it was still a clan and Houses didn't exist as they do now. Alaron and Mazzion were both members and nobody thought anything of it, helped they could kill most people though.

Think that a few houses will fall from these changes though. I don't think that's a bad thing either. Some mergers are likely, either that or they'll just be gone.

Erzsebet

@Arbre Voltaire law allowed for living non-Azudim too, more recently. Though in Voltaire, living/normal undead weren't permitted to be Regent at all by Voltaire law.

@Ezalor and @Mastema : I want to say Aysheirewhatshername the priest was in D'baen for a very short while. And then Thrasius or someone in that vein woke up, went OH HELL NO, and that was the end of that. Bouchard has also had several in its time, though perhaps not consistently or for particularly long durations.

Arbre

They shouldn't have let me be Regent - it was ridiculous and embarrassing.

Erzsebet

Though I don't remember who ran against you, because I wasn't in the house at the time, I -can- see reasons for an exception at times.

Kiralla once supported Haedyn (who was undead) over Tesh or Kiansha--whichever of them ran, I don't remember, because the latter two have always seemed (to her) to go backwards in progress, or whatever. He shortly became blooded again after though. So there's that. Lesser of two evils--of course, if your lesser of two evils is a living sort, there's bigger problems to worry about, I imagine.

Macavity

Erzsebet said:

I'm also still a little dubious about the impending new organization the news post said Abh is going to create--he didn't mention it in the meeting if I recall correctly.

He did mention it at the meeting it self.   fyi

Macavity

I do wish the Houses had a command that could list their members not just between Active and Dormant but also Vampires, Undead and Living just to make sure we have them all instead of having to pine over the list of names and go one by one to check them all.  

Truth is they may have become Vampires but if someone was not watching closely they could have gotten the cure on you without even knowing.

@Razmael maybe we can get this put in??

Razmael

Erzsebet said:

I kind've wish we'd been given at least a week to adjust to the living thing before it started to screw us--there are a couple living people still in Ve'kahi who are willing to become Vampires--they just need to talk to some people about it first as fits with their characters.

I'm also still a little dubious about the impending new organization the news post said Abh is going to create--he didn't mention it in the meeting if I recall correctly.

Overall though, I'm -really- pleased with this change and think it's to the benefit of the game, even if it -does- wreck my ability to sleep for the next 10 weeks or so.

Four houses is a much more sane number, though one wonders how long it'll take people in houses that were made into clans to leave and flock to the houses that are still legit to have the desired effect of consolidation, here.

The interaction with Abhorash was fairly interesting, on top of it all. Much awesome-kudos to whomever is playing him.

As an aside, @Razmael What happens to the gold, house credits, house halls and so on, if a house is turned to a clan?

Abhorash definitely did mention the new organization in the meeting, although I don't remember the exact words said.

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding going on with TOPHOUSES. We gave you three years grace purposefully so that living in your houses wouldn't affect you drastically. Your points get reset annually, and the three houses with the least amount of points will get marked as a lesser. Gold/credits/buildings and things owned by a house will still be owned by the clan.

Razmael

Macavity said:

I do wish the Houses had a command that could list their members not just between Active and Dormant but also Vampires, Undead and Living just to make sure we have them all instead of having to pine over the list of names and go one by one to check them all.  

Truth is they may have become Vampires but if someone was not watching closely they could have gotten the cure on you without even knowing.

@Razmael maybe we can get this put in??

I'll think about it. I've been meaning to revamp a few of the House commands as is, such as HWHO.

Macavity

Erzsebet said:

Four houses is a much more sane number, though one wonders how long it'll take people in houses that were made into clans to leave and flock to the houses that are still legit to have the desired effect of consolidation, here.

I am curious about this as well....  I mean if three Houses fall back to clandom what is going to drive them to move to a real Undead House??  I wonder if there will be a game mechanic put in that will curse the Rogue Vampires and cause them to come back into the House to avoid this or will they be left on their own.  If so we will still end up with the same people in the Houses there are now and the consolidation may not have the desired affect.  

@Razmael any hints or clues you can give on this??

Azrael

From the topic "The month of January 2013"...

Razmael said:

It'll be a permanent change. Once a house is dissolved to a clan, it can't go back.

 

Ezalor

 

Razmael said:

Erzsebet said:

I kind've wish we'd been given at least a week to adjust to the living thing before it started to screw us--there are a couple living people still in Ve'kahi who are willing to become Vampires--they just need to talk to some people about it first as fits with their characters.

I'm also still a little dubious about the impending new organization the news post said Abh is going to create--he didn't mention it in the meeting if I recall correctly.

Overall though, I'm -really- pleased with this change and think it's to the benefit of the game, even if it -does- wreck my ability to sleep for the next 10 weeks or so.

Four houses is a much more sane number, though one wonders how long it'll take people in houses that were made into clans to leave and flock to the houses that are still legit to have the desired effect of consolidation, here.

The interaction with Abhorash was fairly interesting, on top of it all. Much awesome-kudos to whomever is playing him.

As an aside, @Razmael What happens to the gold, house credits, house halls and so on, if a house is turned to a clan?

Abhorash definitely did mention the new organization in the meeting, although I don't remember the exact words said.

I think there's a bit of misunderstanding going on with TOPHOUSES. We gave you three years grace purposefully so that living in your houses wouldn't affect you drastically. Your points get reset annually, and the three houses with the least amount of points will get marked as a lesser. Gold/credits/buildings and things owned by a house will still be owned by the clan.

@Razmael I'm kind of confused by this, what will the criteria be for dissolving at the end? An aggregate of all 3 years? Or just the third year's score with the first two years being "test runs" of some sort?

Daskalos

It sounds like you've got 3 years to purge the living and see how the annual score works, because the annual score at the end of year 3 is going to be the deciding factor.

Macavity

Azrael said:

From the topic "The month of January 2013"...

Razmael said:

It'll be a permanent change. Once a house is dissolved to a clan, it can't go back.

 

was this directed to me?  I was not saying a clan can go back to being an Undead House, but if House A becomes a clan what is going to cause their members or anyone else to join House B that is still an Undead House.  Perhaps I was not clear in my post

Sarita

I was under the impression that people who want to be in the new organization coming up need to be in one of the four houses that belongs to it (assuming all four do). Presumably, those four houses would frown on people being in two houses simultaneously, so people are ultimately going to need to choose between the thriving new houses and the clans that no longer have a means of getting novices easily, are less part of society, etc.

Zhukov

I already imagine people will join Houses if their's is dissolved into a clan but will remain in the clan and there isn't much you can do about it. People will cling to the clan and nobody is going to dissolve it, can already see people standing a Kelende trying to recruit and hoping to become a House once more.

I do support the idea of additional house commands to help separate undead/vampire/living etc. Personally I wouldn't mind if most undead members were kicked out as well if they aren't vampires. With multiclassing there are fewer reasons to not be a vampire and in a house. Was different when you only had one class, its easy enough to get embraced and sinking zero lessons into vampire class and having it for rp reasons only.

I don't support any mechanic to force rogues to join houses either, if you force people to join an org it'll only annoy them and they'll either quit or annoy everyone in the house cause they don't really want to be there. If you want rogues to join your House you should change the environment or ideals to suit them. That and some people just don't want to be in a house and shouldn't be forced into one.

Xavin

In this day and age you don't even have to have Praenomen or Bloodborn to be a vampire.

Angwe

Back in MY day...!

Fenrir

Zhukov said:

I don't support any mechanic to force rogues to join houses either, if you force people to join an org it'll only annoy them and they'll either quit or annoy everyone in the house cause they don't really want to be there. If you want rogues to join your House you should change the environment or ideals to suit them. That and some people just don't want to be in a house and shouldn't be forced into one.

I think if people want to be part of a House, they should be the ones to change. Expecting the House to change its ideals and principles is not only not feasible, but it's also rather arrogant.

I agree with you that you shouldn't be forced to join a House if you don't want to, though.