Vampire negatives are outdated.

Xavin

Here's some numbers. Sun damage triggers every 7 seconds, with affs seemingly distributed randomly. As a wise bloodborn, according to Ilyon, with trans thermology and a fire resistance ring you'll take about 300 damage per tick. That's about 43 damage per second. That should be identical to the damage a praenomen will take, though praenomen can achieve much higher fire resistance than bloodborn. The damage is a little less when you get afflicted, though it's only a difference of about 20 based on Ilyon's numbers. As a dexterous teradrim with the vampire subrace the damage drops to about 230 assuming you're not using vigilance fend (about 36 damage per second). For most classes, but not all, some more of this damage can be mitigated by a fire resistance shield.

Ultimately, I would put my concerns more on the aff rate, particularly when it comes to fighting your higher aff rate classes or classes that can capitalize on the vampire sub-race as well as the question 'do the minor boosts you get out-of-class with the vampire subrace (picking your respawn location, instant satiation when feeding, and no death on 0% blood) make up for the small damage and, at most, additional 0.14 affs per second you get in sunlight?'

Edit: Personally, I do not feel that the out-of-class negatives outweigh the benefits, considering they are both relatively minor and how many mitigating factors you can potentially have (fire resistance shield, amulet of the moon or darkness artifact/class skill for those lucky few). I wouldn't go so far as to say it's not a balancing factor, because it is certainly something to consider, but I do not think that it is so large an issue that it deserves a ton of attention or even a major change.

Angwe

...Am I the only one who thinks what basically ammounts to a free blackwind is worth a few minor affs under a specific condition?

Xavin

It's not really blackwind, because it's only on death, but yeah.

Ezrax

I didn't read everything, but you know vampires get benefits to go with their malaises, right? Look at these:

Praenomen/Bloodborn class:

----------------------

A Praenomen or Bloodborn...

  - Has to hold the Consanguine (Vampire) Sub-race.

  - Heals less from serums.

  - Is susceptible to fire damage.

  - Is resistant to electricity damage.

  - Is resistant to cold damage.

  - Is resistant to poison damage.

  - Is resistant to asphyxiation damage.

  - May become mist voluntarily.

  - May use FEED on other adventurers.

Shinji

Remove healing less from serums, make walking in the sun turn you into a blazing inferno?

Xavin

@Ezrax That list only applies to people in bloodborn and praenomen class. Someone who is a vampire outside of those classes, like when using multiclass, only gets the benefits listed for undead as well as the things listed for vampires.

Illikaal

I might be mistaken, but I think the asphyxiation resistance got removed when they were playing around with kai choke. At least i thought it did.

Ilyon

It's still there:

The following abilities and items are protecting you from Asphyxiation damage:
Vampiric Resistance: +10%
Miasma: 10%
Divine Favor: 10%

Xavin

It was reduced heavily.

Ezrax

Just saying, but being a vampire and bashing Xaanhal is pretty awesome. The resistances help a lot.

Xavin

...you don't get the resistances unless you're in praenomen or bloodborn.

  - Uses Reanimation, replacing Concoctions.
  - Can breathe underwater.
  - Has slightly increased max health.
  - Regenerates health more quickly in a graveyard.
  - Heals slightly less from Boar/Moon tattoos.
  - Has reduced bleeding damage.
  - Has slightly faster regeneration of endurance.
  - Has slightly lower regeneration of willpower.
  - Uses less essence in Necromancy.
  - Unable to generate or use Devotion.
  - Regenerates blood slower when asleep.

That is what all undead get.



  - Is also Undead. (Vampirism replaces Undeath in descriptions)
  - Involuntarily becomes mist upon "death". (Has access to EARTHMELD)
  - DOES NOT regenerate blood when sleeping. (Access to FEED on NPCs)
  - Enters a bloodrage instead of "dying" when at 0% blood.
  - Suffers from damage and afflictions when in the sun.

That is what vampire subrace gets


  - Has to hold the Consanguine (Vampire) Sub-race.
  - Heals less from serums.
  - Is susceptible to fire damage.
  - Is resistant to electricity damage.
  - Is resistant to cold damage.
  - Is resistant to poison damage.
  - Is resistant to asphyxiation damage.
  - May become mist voluntarily.
  - May use FEED on other adventurers.

And that is what people in Bloodborn and Praenomen class get on top of the other two.

Ezrax

Well you're right there. I did an audit on electricity and this is what comes up for me:

The following abilities and items are protecting you from Electric damage:

Miasma: 10%

Divine Favor: 10%

Periluna

I'm honestly confused about this thread. It's a choice to become a vampire over just being undead. If the pros outweigh the cons for you, then uhm... Cure?

Alistaire

People want to play a vampire for the RP, or because the classes are good, or something.

But they don't want the downsides. It doesn't make sense to anyone here, Periluna. Don't feel bad.

Ezalor

Periluna said:

I'm honestly confused about this thread. It's a choice to become a vampire over just being undead. If the pros outweigh the cons for you, then uhm... Cure?

The point of the original thread was that if you wanted to multiclass as say Praenomen and Indorani, you would be savaged by all the vampire cons even as an Indorani, which wasn't balanced around those cons.

It's since been established the sip malus etc is only for Prae/BB. So now it's just sun burning damage and afflictions that are under question. Again, an Indorani who also holds Praenomen has these penalties when being Indorani, which, also again, is not balanced around having these penalties. Prae/BB might be balanced around sun damage but every other class certainly isn't.

Hope that clears up some confusion.

Daskalos

I bet they want to sell the relatively cheap artifact to counteract those if it's hindering you so much. (granted, I haven't a clue. Never played a vamp.)

Ezalor

...wish I could call 500 credits cheap.

The damage is pretty negligible and you get a liver affliction sometimes on ticks. But to iterate, I also don't fight at all, so whether or not these minor hindrances prove devastating in combat I can't say.

Xavin

As I indicated in one of my posts above, the penalties you get amount to about 36 damage per second, give or take and an occasional affliction. There are -three- ways to counter it: don't fight outside in the day, get a darkness artifact or buy an amulet of the moon.

Honestly, if 230damage every 7 seconds was going to kill you you were probably already going to die.

Erzsebet

From a non-combatant's perspective, the sun isn't that much of a pain to deal with, but I can agree that having a ton of maluses roughly half of the time with no benefit is kind've silly. Not to mention, as a vamp in a non-vamp class, you don't have access to willing mistform or earthmeld, which are the things the people/newbs who inexplicably can't sunrun from 'loch to 'reach in one go use to stop themselves from dying.

This said, I don't really have a problem with keeping the maluses. They're part of the RP and consequences of being a Vampire. That's fine. I just think that some pluses--limited to night, out-of-doors when RPwise the Vamp would logically be stronger would be totally fine, would both also make sense, and help offset the maluses. I know a  lot of people who -do- cure, because if they don't have the vamp class the vamp subrace becomes a lot less worth it, if it's just for RP.

Woki

Real vampires sneak into unsuspecting people's bedchambers in the middle of the night, have widow's peaks and cloaks! This was back when we had bedchambers, candelabras that dripped wax and no central heating apart from a fire in a central room of course.

Woki

Also, I didn't notice how far back this post was, sorry about that.

Angwe

Oh god, I thought we closed this thread. Also, hey, @Woki!

Calipso

I always found the vampire sub-race mechanic to be generally messy. Either you are undead or Consanguine or a Consanguine who just happens to not have enhanced strength and abilities but is still one nonetheless >.>.