Let's Kill Abhorash?

Aarbrok

I think as a population in a game we usually discuss in a manner things that are out of our control that we would like to do and really wish that there were other options, Abhorash often being the center of this discussion. Many believe the -need- for this character existing has long expired and really do wish he would just go away. This is not to reference who plays Abhorash whatsoever, moreso a poll to see if the characters existence has and should expire if we had the choice.

Ishin

It's not really for us to decide something like that on an OOC forum.

Aarbrok

I just did it for fun, an opinion based poll, not a decision making vote.

Pretty sure that there is already a plan for what they (The Administration) are and will do with lore and progression of the gameplay, but I think for metrics polling can be a useful tool.

For Example, all you ever hear on the forums is OMG ABHORASH IS TERRIBLE.
So far this poll is saying that the loudest voices are not always the majority.

Aarbrok

In Fact....I kinda like that Super Top Secret Plan is winning

Alexina

I honestly feel like these sort of threads really make it difficult to differentiate between IC and OOC, plus it doesn't seem entirely in good taste. I mean, I could make a poll about whether we wanted to keep @Cariv around (not a reference to the player, moreso the character) and, really, if I played a volunteer role and this sort of stuff kept popping up, I'd probably not feel inclined to devote my time/energy to playing in a volunteer capacity.

Furthermore, seeing OOC threads about 'this IC element should go in X, Y, and Z direction' really makes me a bit jaded and cynical towards the setting as a whole. I don't want OOC to influence IC, particularly not as far as admins/Divines are involved. At least let me keep the illusion that this game moves in accordance to peoples' in-game hopes, ideals, actions, etc.

Sorry, I just guess this stuff sort of takes away from my immersion of Aetolia as a whole.

EDIT:
Anyway, in regards to the 'So far this poll is saying that the loudest voices are not always the majority' comment, I'd personally take the results of these sorts of polls with a grain of salt. Currently, ten people have cast their votes, which hardly can be said to be indicative of the playerbase as a whole. Additionally, I'd claim that the playerbase as a whole should not weigh in on this subject, but rather the people that are directly affected by Abhorash's role (like, vampire characters and such).

EDIT2:
I personally think Abhorash's destruction if played out as a Bloodloch arc could be really interesting, fun, and engaging, but destroying him just for the sake of destroying him really doesn't contribute to the game at all.

Ishin

Agree, @Alexina. Thanks for being able to put that into words

Alexina

I'm more of a casual player these days, but I always found the Dominion a lot more exciting when Abhorash was around and in a talkative mood (so good job, whoever is doing that!). If he disappeared, the Dominion would die unless a major overhaul was put in place.

Actually... I honestly think a major overhaul could do the Dominion good even in the current situation, but that's a bit off topic.

Oleis

Since I don't work here anymore, I'm allowed to say this: Don't worry. This poll has absolutely zero effect on what we'll do with Abhorash, even if it does make for an interesting data collection experiment. But hey! There are already some tentative plans.

Zsadist

Alternatively, because I feel like being a troll..... can we make a poll to destroy and blow up Spinesreach?

Ishin

Zsadist said:

Alternatively, because I feel like being a troll..... can we make a poll to destroy and blow up Spinesreach?

Breh, you cry so much for conflict, but then when we practically hand-feed it to you, all we get is salt in return. If all you want is conflict you can win at all the days, go play a single-player game.

Zsadist

Who said anything about not liking this conflict? I love this war..... however, I'm just asking the poll because asking a poll to kill Abhorash is just as trolly and pathetic as me asking to blow up Spinesreach. It aint gonna happen and it'll do nothing but entice unnecessary arguments and increase the salt of the forums.

Riluo

I get plenty of conflict but most of them fall in two categories (Trikal/Fezz) jumping me which I do not mind a lot if its done right. Or the others who hide in Spines behind guards

Asaraii

I'm all for Abhs, because seeing how some leaders in muds can singlehandedly destroy an org, I like admin being in control. Think of how irritating it must be to be the player of Abhs, who pmuch can expect crying on the forums every time he logs on? To new players, he is someone they REALLY want to interact with, keep in mind.

Me, new to Aetolia, loves that there's admin played RP 'leaders' for several reasons. Makes me not dislike another paying player for sucking at promoting RP (Abhs doesn't, if you stick to the role, fyi. Deal with having a superior already). Knowing there is a volunteer trying to make my game playing experience more entrenched - rocks. Try not being 10+ years jaded and bitter, and think of how us newcomers might feel. Where Abhs is kinda a mystery/badass. We want to talk to him but know he's the don juan and we shouldn't just storm the room and say whaddap son. All the negativity and complaining is ruining it for new people who browse and are looking for something interesting.

Think the topic of Abhs on the forums is a dead horse and we should stop making it all so negative. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

I'm sorry if I sound rude. I'm blunt by nature. And tired of hearing people who don't offer me any better RP or depth to the Vampire world, being the biggest complainers.

Aarbrok

I stand by the fact I am very pleased that the loud voices saying how Abhorash is this and that are not the majority. It is why I made the poll anonymous for my own curiosity that if it is just a few choice people who like to shout loudest because they feel slighted or if its the general consensus, the majority so far are resounding that just because you hear complaints it isnt the status quo. Personal I like super top secret plans, thats how it should be and things should continue as they are. Abhorash to me as a Vampire was not some entity that the admin played, he was a jerk I didn't like and thats why I cured. Everyone has that option, the same people who complain loudest are the ones who also complain loudest about the Vampire class.

There is a solution for that.

Regardless this has been a good social study and has been nice to see @Asaraii from what I hear around you are doing the Vampire thing the right way, by engaging with the newer people and thriving to represent the vampire community in a light that isnt absolutely awful, keep it up and set that example!

Iselle

Asaraii said:

I'm all for Abhs, because seeing how some leaders in muds can singlehandedly destroy an org, I like admin being in control. Think of how irritating it must be to be the player of Abhs, who pmuch can expect crying on the forums every time he logs on? To new players, he is someone they REALLY want to interact with, keep in mind.

Can definitely attest to this! A couple of days ago, an admin dropped by out of nowhere while I was idling, and that brief interaction just about made my day. Volunteers don't get nearly enough appreciation, for what they bring to the game.

Anfini

Asaraii said:

... (Abhs doesn't, if you stick to the role, fyi. Deal with having a superior already) ...

You hit the nail on the head. I think this, here, is something we all ought to get more used to.

For years we've been accustomed to being the absolute top dogs, but the world is evolving and new elements are being introduced that show us we're honestly just small fries. And y'know what? That's exciting.

Asaraii

Thanks @Aarbrok! Sure, I get some people like Aetolia for that 1 on 1 environment, character stuff, blah blah. That's sweet for -you-, sure, but it does absolutely nothing to encourage your organizations to be more lively either. Abhorash does absolutely nothing when he logs on other than to give -players- some interaction with a 'legend/allstar'. He isn't barking orders, he isn't making dead Houses and dramatic Houses stop whatever they're doing. He's there for support. The stigma is just unecessary and whiney at this point. If Abhs wasn't there, it'd just be a player character getting hosed and complained about. 

Elene

Asaraii said:

Where Abhs is kinda a mystery/badass. We want to talk to him but know he's the don juan and we shouldn't just storm the room and say whaddap son.

Whoops, we don't? I may have sort of did that by dropping him a tell. He responded, though!

Asaraii

@elene ha! Nah, he certainly engages and is awesome to interwct with. When you're a tiny nub though, you kinda feel like ermergerd, ABHORASH SSSHHHH.

....I was, anyway. >_>

Aishia

I guess when you're the Queen it's different tho.

Riluo

Hey guys,

I could do with some advice from other players on some matters. Because at this point I am not sure how to handle it and I have been left feeling pretty upset by it all.

Firstly I recently came on here and had a huge rage over the way I felt things had been going and after doing it I felt bad that I had allowed it to get to the point where I acted so childish. Because I am by nature a very calm person IRL and it was not the norm for me to lash out like that. However over several real months some things have begun to grind away at my personal enjoyment in Aetolia and I am not able to process it as it feels like it is bordering on abuse so I cracked and again acted foolish by being abusive on the forums. Which I still regret even now! So posting this is not something I do out of spite but because I honestly need some help resolving this.

It kind of requires I prattle on a bit so I can give a bigger picture so forgive me for dribbling

(sorry my English still sucks)

So what started with snide remarks and the general hum drum you get from other players turned somewhat cruel, well at least from my perspective. I am not going to drop names here either as it is not appropriate or would only flame it further so I will just speak in general terms to save them any backlash.

Now all this bitterness has recently reached a point where it has crossed that thin little redline we all have causing me to consider whether or not I should act in one way or another over the matter. I even messaged Razmael in a bit of a fluster over it before and explained in a haphazard manner that I felt what has been going on currently was crossing a line from a little IC game fun to OOC abuse. Which I was not really comfortable with and I wanted his help as he is in a role that allows him to look at these matters and act in a manner that is fair.

So what is this all about?

Well a while back a returning player to Aetolia got upset that they could not get there way and they took what should have been a great opportunity for rp in a direction that made it OOC and very belligerent in nature. I kind of just rolled with it as they have a -very long- history of this kind of thing towards players in the past and sadly a few of these players even quit the game over their behaviour. Yet I tend to see the good in people and so I hoped it would pass for them and they would simply stop. Perhaps even gain a degree of empathy or at the very least separate IC from OOC.

Sadly it did not happen and instead it got worse with verbal abuse and general ooc nastiness that resulted in me making a decision to remove Riluo as house leader in the hope it might help if someone else was the leader instead. I was very happy to do it as it was made clear by this person that OOC the admin/primus wanted me to step down, and was again I was happy to let Conner take over as he seemed happy/active and had some drive. (Conner is not the person by the way).

This was my first mistake as I later found out that the admin had never stated anything of the sort and I was left feeling very foolish for falling for these lies and should not have taken these people on face value. This was then followed by a series of a lot of personal assaults on my character (which I could deal with –IF- it was IC and used to advance player driven storylines). Again I was foolish and overly trusting as the things I has shared ooc had been turning into IC accusations of theft over something that was purchased for the house in the form of NPC upgrades. Sadly these upgrades had been shelved for several real months due to important things going on in the pools and the fact the upgrades were not a priority. I explained this to this person and others OOC and made it clear that it was something I could not fix IC and could still take a while to be sorted. Unfortunately this OOC info was then used IC in such a manner that portrayed me in a bad light. Frankly I felt this was a bit cruel to use this ooc info about what was going on in the pools in such a manner. It kind of came of as pretty vindictive and I tried to handle it IC Riluo style with an arrogance he would use because it felt smarter to just use it as a chance for rp and not allow their insults to drag me down.

Thankfully Razmael corrected the NPC issues for me when he was made aware, which thankfully made a few people open their eyes and say, “sorry mate.” But the harm and abuse had already occurred (which is frankly rather upsetting) and from an IC perspective I could not really share the ooc info about why it took so long.

I then go the feeling that perhaps if I could run for Overlord it might be a fun way of gaining some respect back. I even got my house to support me which was nice. I did not win but the fact they all seemed to be happy to support me was enough for me When the tally came in I released none of them had voted and so I handled it IC by stating it Riluo style by saying you fucking maggots have just weakened our Houses power base by not supporting an Elder puff up chest etc etc at house members as this is how Riluo would do it. I was told OOC that after this IC role play I was going to get booted because this I held to much influence still and it would make it hard for them to get what they wanted in the future.

Then today I logged on to find out that an admin ran character had stripped my Elder rank in the House by order of a few house members? As you can imagine this is odd at best and I felt kind of bordering on abuse of power to utilise an admin character to deal with ooc grievances and IC player politics (something that could have resulted in some rp if done right. Instead it was removed from me and I do not know how to state it but put in the hands of those who I feel should not be pushing player politics nevermind the fact all of this was being done ooc with the hope of removing me from the House.

Am I wrong to feel this way? Is it just foolish or am I right to think this was kind of wrong and badly handled by people?

I can be sensitive and sometimes I wonder if it is just me not understanding the role of admin in player driven things or the fact that so much ooc abuse has been going on that when this happened I have simply taken it wrong?

Anyway I will stop here as I have prattled on long enough and just say this. To remove Riluo was not possible until now as he was a House Elder meaning he can not be thrown out. Because he had gained the privilege under the last Iosyne/Abho player for playing such a positive role/influence in vampire culture over the last 10 real years. However after today with Abho removing it I can be removed?

Razmael

Being a Consanguine Elder does not guarantee an immunity to the in-character consequences of your in-character actions. You wrote to the Nebre'seir logs:

2015/10/19 01:51:08 - Riluo > Thank you all for not voting you maggot fucks.
2015/10/19 01:53:55 - Riluo > You have just made Nebre'seir the weakest of the Houses by refusing to support your own. I will not forget that.

Aside from the blatant violation of our language rules, your actions were sufficient to motivate a response - namely, one that got Abhorash involved. House Elder grants someone the immunity from punishment within the House, and while the concept of that is nice, sometimes it lets house members act against the interests of the house without allowing the leaders of that house any possible recourse. In this instance, you overstepped the boundaries of decorum which we expect of players who have been given that level of in-character clout, which motivated our decision to remove you as an Elder.

While you are certainly free to criticize how Aetolia's administrators portray the characters that have been assigned to them, in this case your in-character actions incited a reaction. As we say in our disclaimer, this is a functioning world, your actions have consequences, and the actions of others can result in consequences for you. That's a policy we stand by in this instance.

Riluo

I might be fine with that just not the use of house politics and ooc abuse that results in using an admin npc to further the agenda of certain players. In terms of the language that is pretty selective Raz given we see worst shouts each day and the log was between a few players all of who say far worse on city/house webs and other mediums.

However saying that the issue still is this. When is it right for people to use admin as a tool to further abuse people after all the ooc rubbish being directed at a player?

Is it right for admin to get into player politics at all when a select few players want to force someone out of the game and this a fact I clearly shared several time with people and was very clearly raised as a concern several time in the last few months ooc?

Honestly even if this did not stink as a lame move by a few nasty people trying to causes issues by circumventing personal ooc grievances through ic means it is a bit spiteful. Seriously I have pretty much just been told suck it up they used admin and we will not back down?

I just find it offensive and wrong on so many levels that it is being ignored.

But sure I can just let roll on.

Lim

Why don't you issue whomever  for OOC abuse?

Lim

Sounds like the problem isn't with Abhorash, but with the person that screwed you over.

Riluo

I honestly would but the way it is right now I have lost faith in it all at this moment and feel a bit let down. But thank you for the suggestion.

Oleis

I think it's probably important to address a couple loaded questions and misleading phrasings. No one 'used' administrative characters to further an agenda against Riluo the person or Riluo the character. Because of this notion that House Elders cannot be punished, Abhorash is literally the only person who can hold Riluo-the-character accountable for inappropriate actions. I'm not defending the value of that by any means, but it is a factual assessment of the situation.

No one is "getting involved in player politics" on an administrative level and certainly no one is trying to force Riluo-the-player out of the game. Abhorash is leading the organization he's in charge of. That thing this thread wavers between wanting to abolish and wanting significantly more of.

We zap (or softvoice or mute) people who shout inappropriate things when we're there to hear them. @Lim is correct that you should be pursuing an issue against this person, Riluo (with logs and as much proof as you can find of the abusive behavior), but I think the missing step here is also to admit that you did something wrong after a lot of justified frustration, and your character is seeing the repercussions of that outburst.

Nalor

Riluo said:

However saying that the issue still is this. When is it right for people to use admin as a tool to further abuse people after all the ooc rubbish being directed at a player?

It's fine to use ABH / Admin when players are abusing the ELDER role as Houses have no control over punishing them in any way possible as ELDER is not a right but a privilege set and controlled by Admin.

Also using 'swear' words in logs is frowned upon as not everyone in your house likes the behaviour, in Shouts, WT, Ct, GT is kind of fine within reason as a few tells after it disappears and not really 'logged' like a log is.

And as Lim said ^ if its ooc abuse then issue the person about it.

Riluo

I am fine with admin doing what they do honestly. I am just disappointed it came to this point with certain parties being able to cause me distress and it was made worse by not being able to understand how it reached a point where they are sitting smugly behind a screen with nothing to be done about it as I will not stoop to metagaming or being a "rat" for lack of a better term. It is not in my nature to do it. I do not issue unless it is a big bug or my dumb ability to break artifacts.

Although this bloody 58 hour curse is sucky IE lost my skills. That kind of annoyed me but I have ways of getting around it.

In terms of admin trying to boot me .. No it is not you guys so please do not think I meant you or anyone.. god no! Honestly despite my rage right now I like you guys 100% and respect you more for what you must have to put up with. I just feel it is a grey area that is kind of odd right now with everything going on. Although honestly I can not do anything to change that so I just have to suck it up.

Zsadist

As someone who has had similar issues happen in previous games, with far worse of admins at the reigns, I will also advocate issuing said person or people. If you can provide logs of ooc info which were then used IC with no other interaction in between, the admins will get to the bottom of it.... especially if its causing grievances for multiple players. I get your lack of faith in the system, I share similar views sometimes, but I would still advocate an issue. Worst thing that happens is that nothing happens at all. At this point, I feel like you have nothing really left to lose.

Its also nice to remember, that Issues cannot be used for IC punishment, so if you get punished for issuing then the admins are sure to jump in.

Nalor

Can we please get back onto ' Let's Kill Abhorash? ' instead of why Riluo thinks he's hard done by?