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The Crafting Community
Alexina
the Haunted Soul
So. There was a really long conversations today about whether it's appropriate to include clothes' effects on breasts in tailoring designs, I guess partly due to some races/characters not having boobs. Personally, I don't feel particularly strongly about crafting these days, but it does bother me when people start deriding each other for having different opions than themselves.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "So uh, I just saw the conversation from earlier and want to chime in because what the hell people. Using the word breasts in a blouse is gendered as hell. You're obviously referring to the wearer being a woman, because in every design that references men, chest is used. Breasts isn't common vernacular to reference men with."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "K."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "But mmm, Zarni - I can't wait run my hands over your ches - I mean breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Go on."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Keep the Social Justice Warrioring to Tumblr where people give a shit."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "His strong hairy breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "...go on."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "It's not social justice, it's grammar.
"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Hardly."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Isn't grammar."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Its us all not giving a shit and you two carrying on."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Dammmn, baby. You have a gorgeous ches- I mean breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "The example that sticks out is, men get breast cancer, not chest or pec cancer."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "It's almost like medical terminology is different than colloquial English."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, ":o."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Colloquial english wants to acknowledge y'all as an acceptable way to address a single person."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "Are we still going on about this?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Going on about what? Breasts?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I love 'em, why not."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Breast is a trigger word for me, could you please stop."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "Breasts and why they can't be mentioned in clothing descriptions."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Oh, you can mention 'em, like if you make a drawing of them on the item or whatever, go nuts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It's been ruled that you can mention them. The design in question is fine, as per previous rulings."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Ruling of Becue in the case of Erzebet vs. the anti-breast coalition or something?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Isn't my design."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "All kidding aside though, is there a place where these kinds of rulings are logged or anything?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Seems like shit like this comes up all the time."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "That would make things -so- much better."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Yeah."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "Becue's making a scroll for precisely that purpose, actually."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "And I know that 20 people have idea'd it, like 800 times."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "But it's not all-inclusive--can't be, since Becue isn't a singular person."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Well yeah it would be nice to have ...this kind of shit, I like to be an ass for the sake of being one during ...sassy issues."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "But honestly, like crafters gives me as many headaches as you guys too sometimes."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Well, if we're getting rid of boobs, we should get rid of asses too. In the sake of fariness."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "I just think we shouldnt be so critical of things outside grammar."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Thighs too Lexi."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "It's HELP IMPORTANT RULINGS, and Becue asked in a news post for people to inform Her of prior rulings."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "And like magical shit."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Nice."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Boom."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Didn't figure it applied to this, since this is so damn basic it's common sense."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "So please do that regarding old rulings, so that crap like this can stop."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "I just like to pick at scabs when silly things start up."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "I apologize for being snappish. I just don't have the spoons for dumb shit today. I still love you all."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Youre fine."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "As per crafts 702, all rulings and guidelines exist in 'help design guidleines' and 'help design approval', and any other rulings not listed in those are overturned. Or something like that."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "702."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "What the hell is that ?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "'readnews crafts 702'."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Oh."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Arguably, whether or not you're allowed to assume breasts is basic enough to not have needed a ruling to begin with. Like assuming legs and other appendages."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Lots of 'this previous ruling said this or that' in (The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Alright well im gonna follow suit, crafters have the heads up their asses again and its time to not have any fucks."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Wut. o.O."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "That's a bit of a false equivalence, Erz. All of the playable races in Aetolia have legs and arms and heads. Not all of them have tits."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Not all races without these features will wear these items. As a werecroc, I don't particularly think I have flappy ears. I'm not going to stop crafters from making earrings or studs or w/e because my race, at the time, can't wear an item."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "I wasn't talking about breasts, more that 'past rulings said x or y' is not really something that validates a design. o.O."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, ". . .if someone doesn't have boobs they're probably not gonna buy an item described as having boobs. Seems like it works itself out just fine."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "Yeah well it might be a really cute top except for the random tits exploding out of your chest every time you wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Woah."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I'd by that top."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "Which is why you don't wear it, it doesn't fit your character."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Attire? An item power-posing is never allowed, but I haven't seen anything that qualifies."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Not to mention, these aren't saying you have tits of a specific size, they're saying you have breasts--which almost every playable race does."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "Why is this even an arguement?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "No idea."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "Yeah and what about the lady horks out there who don't have norks? Why should they be disallowed from wearing the blouse without growing a pair?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Because nobody but two people care about this."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "It's an argument because obviously there is someone that has an issue with how designing works. But instead of politely explaining that this is the way things are for whatever reason, we've decided to belittle them and dismiss their concerns as rudely as we possibly can because lols."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "This started off as a question from a new crafter."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Am not being rude, or dismissive."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Erz, yes it is lol."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Of course you aren't, Erz. <.<."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Isn't."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Being trololololol is being dismissive."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "I missed the point where we -had- to start wearing breast-blouses whether or not we wanted to."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Am not trolling."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "^ @ Phendegwen."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Clrli you weren't, Erz."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Woah wait."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Phendegwen its obviously because you want to accentuate your breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Can I make pants that have three legs and are clearly all being filled by the wearer?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "I -do- have an abundant chest. Clearly it should be accentuated."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Corvo says, "The way I see it, crafted items should have a neutral stance, especially when it comes to gender. An article of clothing for instance should not alter the physical attributes of an individual."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "There is a blouse for that."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "They don't."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It's not altering anything."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Why does a shirt have breasts?"
(Bloodloch): Lycia says, "Greetings."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Now I'm just confused though."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It doesn't."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I've never like been at the department store and thought, 'look at the breasts on that shirt!'"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "..."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Its a shirt cut for a woman therefore it demonstrates breasts in the description."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Corset?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Choker?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Any piercing? Any bra?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "And apparently we all have to wear blouses that describe our breasts now. Or so I've gathered from this hilarious argument."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Hell, socks."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It fits tightly so as to not display breasts--if you have a carapace it won't display that either, same, man-tits."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Shoes."
(Troublemakers Anonymous): Lycia says, "Hihi."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Heels and boots."
(Bloodloch): Catty says, "Greetings, Bloodloch."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Tenshyo says, "See #4 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/breast."
(Bloodloch): Lycia says, "Hello, Sire."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Tenshyo says, "And good night."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kallah says, "Thank you Tens."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Is more or less the line that people have an issue with?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Which is why you don't wear it, it doesn't fit your character. <---Right, but the argument is that we, as crafters, constantly quality control to ensure that logical - as well as grammatical - slip-ups don't happen in the game. For example, breasts shouldn't magically explode on a character if it isn't written in their description that they have them. Regardless of who's responsibility it is to read the descrip, the point is irrelevant because it still creates this situation in the first place."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kallah says, "Thats not what its saying at all actually."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "I have not been rudely dismissive- or if I have it has been entirely unintentional. If you use something like 'it accentuates the breast', then the singular version of the word can indicate the general chest area. If it is female, it accentuates their breasts, if they are male it just makes their pectorals look good."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I can't see the design, but am curious what the line in question is."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "It talked about the fit around potential breasts, Kallah."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "'The neckline has been left wide, allowing the blouse to fall off the shoulders, yet tight enough to prevent the fabric from exposing the wearer's breasts.'"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So if the person wearing it has breasts then it works, if they dont...then dont buy it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "See: above argument Aarbs."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "This is describing a wide collar."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Ah that does kind of imply an amount of bosom there."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So dont buy it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So dont wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I wont, Trik doesn't wear wide necklines."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Latharn says, "So? Not like the crafter is forcing you to wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "If it doesnt fit you then dont wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Who gives a shit."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "/shrug apparently the 10 people who're all talking about it?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Its not a design for them."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "But the argument is that we, as crafters, constantly quality control to ensure that logical - as well as grammatical - slip-ups don't happen in the game. For example, breasts shouldn't magically explode on a character if it isn't written in their description that they have them. Regardless of who's responsibility it is to read the descrip, the point is irrelevant because it still creates this situation in the first place."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "This is the most hilarious and absurd arguement I've seen on here in ages."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So as long as it fits the person who is making it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "This argument is asinine."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "This is neither a logical nor a grammatical slip-up."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Latharn says, "By the crafting guidelines there is nothing wrong with that design, stop getting all snoody over it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "I say someone just put their approval on that design then there will be nothing to argue about."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Cause its done."
Design #7126, a billowing ebony-hued blouse, has been approved.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Okay, fine, whatever, I honestly don't care, lots of my corsets and bras and tops assume breasts are freely available, but this whole attitude of 'who gives a shit', 'why is this even an argument', etcetera just creates an atmosphere where people can't have a differing opinion without being declared an idiot or asanine or whatever. It's pretty dumb and it really is going to push away people from crafting."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "Done until the next mention of curvy bottoms on a pair of pants."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Lexi, do you think it'll push them into PK?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "If so, lets foster the crafter hostility."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Heh."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Areka says, "./logs in and dsw's trikal."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "<3
."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Oh myyy."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "-stops to fawn over Arekas muscles-."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Areka says, "I'm gonna grip the haft of my hammer and really show you how to work it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Areka don't tease me."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Because it's an argument people don't want to have, so they try to belittle people without engaging whatsoever."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "I made points and took two steps in another direction when they weren't acknowledged. I have an opinion and haven't seen a reason yet to make me change it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "This is not a personal argument. Uncertain why you're trying to insist that it is."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Then act shocked when people get hostile back, after they're abruptly dismissed."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Areka says, "I should actually figure out some more aliases though since now I have to actually conver to mudlet. Fortress thinks I'm undead ;_;."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "You're not undead, I am living a lie."
Design #24385, a perfectly neutral blouse, was submitted to the tailoring queue.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Design #24385, a perfectly neutral blouse <--- and then trolly shit like this happens, because it's about the lolz and not an honest conversation."
Design #24385, a perfectly neutral blouse, has been approved.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "And then people wonder why shit stays in the q for three days at a time."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "You're being dishonest as shit, Erz. The insults and derision were personal, and you know it. As well as whichever smarmy asshole thinks they're being clever with that last design."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "I didn't even see the last design."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Not insulting anyone."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "We all have logs and can look back into the chat. If you think you're being personally harassed, get a quote and issue it."
Instead of having a decent conversation about why designing works the way it does, people started to explain how stupid all the other people were for not understanding this. I don't think these sort of attitudes are conductive to a healthy gaming environment, and I know that if I'd been treated this way when having unpopular or differing opinions when I started crafting, I probably wouldn't even have continued doing it.
Can we maybe not be a little more inclusive to people that're new to this game (or at least new to certain aspects of it), rather than making them feel like they don't belong here?
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "So uh, I just saw the conversation from earlier and want to chime in because what the hell people. Using the word breasts in a blouse is gendered as hell. You're obviously referring to the wearer being a woman, because in every design that references men, chest is used. Breasts isn't common vernacular to reference men with."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "K."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "But mmm, Zarni - I can't wait run my hands over your ches - I mean breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Go on."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Keep the Social Justice Warrioring to Tumblr where people give a shit."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "His strong hairy breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "...go on."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "It's not social justice, it's grammar.
"(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Hardly."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Isn't grammar."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Its us all not giving a shit and you two carrying on."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Dammmn, baby. You have a gorgeous ches- I mean breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "The example that sticks out is, men get breast cancer, not chest or pec cancer."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "It's almost like medical terminology is different than colloquial English."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, ":o."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Colloquial english wants to acknowledge y'all as an acceptable way to address a single person."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "Are we still going on about this?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Going on about what? Breasts?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I love 'em, why not."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Breast is a trigger word for me, could you please stop."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "Breasts and why they can't be mentioned in clothing descriptions."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Oh, you can mention 'em, like if you make a drawing of them on the item or whatever, go nuts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It's been ruled that you can mention them. The design in question is fine, as per previous rulings."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Ruling of Becue in the case of Erzebet vs. the anti-breast coalition or something?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Isn't my design."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "All kidding aside though, is there a place where these kinds of rulings are logged or anything?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Seems like shit like this comes up all the time."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "That would make things -so- much better."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Yeah."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "Becue's making a scroll for precisely that purpose, actually."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "And I know that 20 people have idea'd it, like 800 times."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "But it's not all-inclusive--can't be, since Becue isn't a singular person."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Well yeah it would be nice to have ...this kind of shit, I like to be an ass for the sake of being one during ...sassy issues."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "But honestly, like crafters gives me as many headaches as you guys too sometimes."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Well, if we're getting rid of boobs, we should get rid of asses too. In the sake of fariness."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "I just think we shouldnt be so critical of things outside grammar."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Thighs too Lexi."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "It's HELP IMPORTANT RULINGS, and Becue asked in a news post for people to inform Her of prior rulings."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "And like magical shit."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Nice."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Boom."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Didn't figure it applied to this, since this is so damn basic it's common sense."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "So please do that regarding old rulings, so that crap like this can stop."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "I just like to pick at scabs when silly things start up."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kanivara says, "I apologize for being snappish. I just don't have the spoons for dumb shit today. I still love you all."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Youre fine."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "As per crafts 702, all rulings and guidelines exist in 'help design guidleines' and 'help design approval', and any other rulings not listed in those are overturned. Or something like that."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "702."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "What the hell is that ?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "'readnews crafts 702'."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Oh."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Arguably, whether or not you're allowed to assume breasts is basic enough to not have needed a ruling to begin with. Like assuming legs and other appendages."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Lots of 'this previous ruling said this or that' in (The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Alright well im gonna follow suit, crafters have the heads up their asses again and its time to not have any fucks."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Wut. o.O."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "That's a bit of a false equivalence, Erz. All of the playable races in Aetolia have legs and arms and heads. Not all of them have tits."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Not all races without these features will wear these items. As a werecroc, I don't particularly think I have flappy ears. I'm not going to stop crafters from making earrings or studs or w/e because my race, at the time, can't wear an item."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "I wasn't talking about breasts, more that 'past rulings said x or y' is not really something that validates a design. o.O."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, ". . .if someone doesn't have boobs they're probably not gonna buy an item described as having boobs. Seems like it works itself out just fine."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "Yeah well it might be a really cute top except for the random tits exploding out of your chest every time you wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Woah."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I'd by that top."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "Which is why you don't wear it, it doesn't fit your character."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Attire? An item power-posing is never allowed, but I haven't seen anything that qualifies."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Not to mention, these aren't saying you have tits of a specific size, they're saying you have breasts--which almost every playable race does."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "Why is this even an arguement?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "No idea."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "Yeah and what about the lady horks out there who don't have norks? Why should they be disallowed from wearing the blouse without growing a pair?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Because nobody but two people care about this."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "It's an argument because obviously there is someone that has an issue with how designing works. But instead of politely explaining that this is the way things are for whatever reason, we've decided to belittle them and dismiss their concerns as rudely as we possibly can because lols."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "^."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "This started off as a question from a new crafter."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Am not being rude, or dismissive."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Erz, yes it is lol."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Of course you aren't, Erz. <.<."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Isn't."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Being trololololol is being dismissive."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "I missed the point where we -had- to start wearing breast-blouses whether or not we wanted to."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Am not trolling."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "^ @ Phendegwen."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Clrli you weren't, Erz."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Woah wait."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Phendegwen its obviously because you want to accentuate your breasts."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Can I make pants that have three legs and are clearly all being filled by the wearer?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "I -do- have an abundant chest. Clearly it should be accentuated."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Corvo says, "The way I see it, crafted items should have a neutral stance, especially when it comes to gender. An article of clothing for instance should not alter the physical attributes of an individual."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "There is a blouse for that."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "They don't."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It's not altering anything."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Why does a shirt have breasts?"
(Bloodloch): Lycia says, "Greetings."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Now I'm just confused though."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It doesn't."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I've never like been at the department store and thought, 'look at the breasts on that shirt!'"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "..."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Its a shirt cut for a woman therefore it demonstrates breasts in the description."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Corset?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Choker?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Any piercing? Any bra?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "And apparently we all have to wear blouses that describe our breasts now. Or so I've gathered from this hilarious argument."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Hell, socks."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "It fits tightly so as to not display breasts--if you have a carapace it won't display that either, same, man-tits."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Shoes."
(Troublemakers Anonymous): Lycia says, "Hihi."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "Heels and boots."
(Bloodloch): Catty says, "Greetings, Bloodloch."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Tenshyo says, "See #4 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/breast."
(Bloodloch): Lycia says, "Hello, Sire."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Tenshyo says, "And good night."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kallah says, "Thank you Tens."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Is more or less the line that people have an issue with?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Which is why you don't wear it, it doesn't fit your character. <---Right, but the argument is that we, as crafters, constantly quality control to ensure that logical - as well as grammatical - slip-ups don't happen in the game. For example, breasts shouldn't magically explode on a character if it isn't written in their description that they have them. Regardless of who's responsibility it is to read the descrip, the point is irrelevant because it still creates this situation in the first place."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Kallah says, "Thats not what its saying at all actually."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "I have not been rudely dismissive- or if I have it has been entirely unintentional. If you use something like 'it accentuates the breast', then the singular version of the word can indicate the general chest area. If it is female, it accentuates their breasts, if they are male it just makes their pectorals look good."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I can't see the design, but am curious what the line in question is."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "It talked about the fit around potential breasts, Kallah."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "'The neckline has been left wide, allowing the blouse to fall off the shoulders, yet tight enough to prevent the fabric from exposing the wearer's breasts.'"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So if the person wearing it has breasts then it works, if they dont...then dont buy it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "See: above argument Aarbs."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "This is describing a wide collar."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Ah that does kind of imply an amount of bosom there."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So dont buy it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So dont wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "I wont, Trik doesn't wear wide necklines."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Latharn says, "So? Not like the crafter is forcing you to wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "If it doesnt fit you then dont wear it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Who gives a shit."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "/shrug apparently the 10 people who're all talking about it?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Its not a design for them."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "But the argument is that we, as crafters, constantly quality control to ensure that logical - as well as grammatical - slip-ups don't happen in the game. For example, breasts shouldn't magically explode on a character if it isn't written in their description that they have them. Regardless of who's responsibility it is to read the descrip, the point is irrelevant because it still creates this situation in the first place."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "This is the most hilarious and absurd arguement I've seen on here in ages."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "So as long as it fits the person who is making it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "This argument is asinine."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "This is neither a logical nor a grammatical slip-up."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Latharn says, "By the crafting guidelines there is nothing wrong with that design, stop getting all snoody over it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "I say someone just put their approval on that design then there will be nothing to argue about."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Cause its done."
Design #7126, a billowing ebony-hued blouse, has been approved.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): You say, "Okay, fine, whatever, I honestly don't care, lots of my corsets and bras and tops assume breasts are freely available, but this whole attitude of 'who gives a shit', 'why is this even an argument', etcetera just creates an atmosphere where people can't have a differing opinion without being declared an idiot or asanine or whatever. It's pretty dumb and it really is going to push away people from crafting."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Phendegwen says, "Done until the next mention of curvy bottoms on a pair of pants."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Lexi, do you think it'll push them into PK?"
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "If so, lets foster the crafter hostility."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Heh."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Areka says, "./logs in and dsw's trikal."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "<3
."(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "Oh myyy."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "-stops to fawn over Arekas muscles-."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Areka says, "I'm gonna grip the haft of my hammer and really show you how to work it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Trikal says, "Areka don't tease me."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Because it's an argument people don't want to have, so they try to belittle people without engaging whatsoever."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "I made points and took two steps in another direction when they weren't acknowledged. I have an opinion and haven't seen a reason yet to make me change it."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "This is not a personal argument. Uncertain why you're trying to insist that it is."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Then act shocked when people get hostile back, after they're abruptly dismissed."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Areka says, "I should actually figure out some more aliases though since now I have to actually conver to mudlet. Fortress thinks I'm undead ;_;."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Aarbrok says, "You're not undead, I am living a lie."
Design #24385, a perfectly neutral blouse, was submitted to the tailoring queue.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "Design #24385, a perfectly neutral blouse <--- and then trolly shit like this happens, because it's about the lolz and not an honest conversation."
Design #24385, a perfectly neutral blouse, has been approved.
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Eydis says, "And then people wonder why shit stays in the q for three days at a time."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Zarni says, "You're being dishonest as shit, Erz. The insults and derision were personal, and you know it. As well as whichever smarmy asshole thinks they're being clever with that last design."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Akaryuterra says, "I didn't even see the last design."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Erzsebet says, "Not insulting anyone."
(The Crafting Guild of Sapience): Reux says, "We all have logs and can look back into the chat. If you think you're being personally harassed, get a quote and issue it."
Instead of having a decent conversation about why designing works the way it does, people started to explain how stupid all the other people were for not understanding this. I don't think these sort of attitudes are conductive to a healthy gaming environment, and I know that if I'd been treated this way when having unpopular or differing opinions when I started crafting, I probably wouldn't even have continued doing it.
Can we maybe not be a little more inclusive to people that're new to this game (or at least new to certain aspects of it), rather than making them feel like they don't belong here?
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That said, I don't want to fan the flames and have everything spill over to the forums instead, so I'm going to go ahead and close the forum thread preemptively.