Bombcrafting Liaison Discussion

Riluo

@Oleis and Co

After much consideration I purchased Bombcrafting today with the intention of using it in conjunction with the bombcrafter_artifact. As show below it claims to increase the damage and worth of this skillset.

Artifact #204
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Power: master_bombcrafter
This artifact power can be added to other items.

Description:
Bomb-related actions will be faster and your crafted bombs will do more damage. If you do not have access to Bombcrafting in the military tree, this will grant you access to it.
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Sadly it does not increase the output at all. I tested these three times with and without the artefact on the same person with 32% fire resistance:

Without artefact: (Spidermine)

Whirring and clunking, a walking spider mine suddenly emerges from its concealment.
[5502(100%)|4324(100%)|0|99%|100%|100%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb]
A walking spider mine emits a sharp series of clicks before exploding in a conflagration of bright, bluish flame, both it and the accompanying red-hot shrapnel engulfing you.
Health Lost: 191, fire, none
Health Lost: 252, cutting, none

With artefact: (Spidermine)

Whirring and clunking, a walking spider mine suddenly emerges from its concealment.
[5502(100%)|4324(100%)|0|99%|100%|100%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb]
A walking spider mine emits a sharp series of clicks before exploding in a conflagration of bright, bluish flame, both it and the accompanying red-hot shrapnel engulfing you.
Health Lost: 191, fire, none
Health Lost: 252, cutting, none

Without artefact: (Dalturian bomb+Grenade combo)

[5502(100%)|4324(100%)|0|100%|100%|100%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb] (+2e)
A Dalturian bomb comes sailing in from the up to land with a thump, pulsing rapidly with an ominous glow.
[Tripwire]: Affliction: OILED
[5502(100%)|4324(100%)|0|100%|100%|100%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb]
A clay grenade comes sailing in from the up to land with a thump, pulsing rapidly with an ominous glow.
[Tripwire]: Affliction: GRENADE (((()))=## (BooM)
The oil coating you catches aflame, aggravating the grenade's attack.
Health Lost: 389, fire, none
[5113(92%)|4324(100%)|0|100%|100%|100%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb] (-389h)

With artefact: (Dalturian bomb+Grenade combo)

[5502(100%)|4324(100%)|0|100%|90%|95%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb] (+2e)
A Dalturian bomb comes sailing in from the up to land with a thump, pulsing rapidly with an ominous glow.
[Tripwire]: Affliction: OILED
[5502(100%)|4324(100%)|0|100%|100%|100%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb]
A clay grenade comes sailing in from the up to land with a thump, pulsing rapidly with an ominous glow.
[Tripwire]: Affliction: GRENADE (((()))=## (BooM)
The oil coating you catches aflame, aggravating the grenade's attack.
Health Lost: 389, fire, none
[5113(92%)|4324(100%)|0|100%|90%|95%|31.9%|R:3|Md:0%|S:120%] [HMcsdb eb] (-389h)

This worries me and quiet honestly disappoints me greatly as the artefact is not worth the credits currently. On top of this the standard damage from this skillset is really bad and could do with some reworking.

The time increase appears to have worked I suppose as it went from:

Without artefact:

With the ease of practice, you mould some clay into a small sphere and hollow it out. Swiftly but 
precisely, you pack it full of sulphur and elemental ash, rigging the grenade to be ready for activation.
Balance Used: 3.50 seconds
H:8335 M:7567 E:32503 W:23385 B:84% S:100% Mad:0% XP:41% [csdb e-] [eas ftr]
0-------------------------------------------------------0
 >You have recovered balance on all limbs.<
0-------------------------------------------------------0
H:8335 M:7567 E:32488 W:23400 B:84% S:100% Mad:0% XP:41% [csdb eb] [eas ftr]
You quickly wave a hand over a clay grenade, bringing it to life with latent ylem.
From deep within the bomb there is a faint pulsating glow, growing steadily brighter with each tick. 
Without hesitation you lob it casually towards the down.
Balance Used: 3.30 seconds

With artefact:

With the ease of practice, you mould some clay into a small sphere and hollow it out. Swiftly but 
precisely, you pack it full of sulphur and elemental ash, rigging the grenade to be ready for activation.
Balance Used: 2.97 seconds
H:8335 M:7567 E:31995 W:23400 B:83% S:100% Mad:0% XP:41% [csdb e-] [eas ftr]
0-------------------------------------------------------0
 >You have recovered balance on all limbs.<
0-------------------------------------------------------0
H:8335 M:7567 E:31980 W:23385 B:83% S:100% Mad:0% XP:41% [csdb eb] [eas ftr]
You quickly wave a hand over a clay grenade, bringing it to life with latent ylem.
From deep within the bomb there is a faint pulsating glow, growing steadily brighter with each tick. 
Without hesitation you lob it casually towards the down.
Balance Used: 2.80 seconds

So I am proposing that the base damage be looked at and tweaked please as well as the artefact fixed as it is buggy and not worth 300 credits which sucks hugely (I was very excited to try this). In addition the parts are a pain to collect as their is only one place to gain them currently, therefore cold we look at having sulphur and oils made available in more spots such as at the ylem pillars in each city!


Additional ideas:

-Spidermine
• Increase the damage by at least double as there is a warning message that it is about to activate that gives the target a few seconds to flee.
• Otherwise keep the damage as is and make the mine give a 1sec stun


Dalturian bomb:
• Increase the base damage a lot more when combinded with a grenade from 391 to 700.
• Allow firewalls to activate the oil causing additional damage (extra 100)
• Make the oil that is on the body burn twice if it is not scrubbed off, with second tick being smaller in number

(Initial explosion) The oil coating you catches aflame, aggravating the grenade's attack.
4 secs after.
(Secondary) As the last of the flames die down the oil evaporates from your seared skin.


-Grenade
• Increase the damage from 300 to 500 base as this particular bomb can be dodged making it not hit all.

A clay grenade suddenly explodes into thousands of shards, accompanied by jets of searing hot flame. As the shards fly outward, they too explode, releasing smaller explosions of debris and fire that sear your flesh.
You sidestep the attack, letting the strike go wide. <----- :(

• Make the grenade cause shrapnel burns (60 damage per tick ever 2 secs for 8 secs total) on top of a base damage of 400. That is unless the player PATDOWN BODY to knock the hot shards of their body. This requires balance but does not use it and will remove the shards after causing only the 400 base and a single 50 damage from wiping them off.


In terms of the other bombs they seem fine, although it would be nice to add a few more like a mine that causes the target to get stunned if they try to enter or cause them stumble if they activate it and try to flee. Make it like the spidermine in that it has to be placed in a room.


If anyone has ideas please share as I like this concept but the execution and damage is disappointing.

Aarbrok

Bombcrafting has been incredibly weak for a long time, I have had it forever but I use it for RP purpose only.
The artifact from what I have been told does NOTHING for the class whatsoever so I was not inclined to buy it. I definitely would like to see some functionality out of them, but yeah, I once chained 20 spidermines in defense of Spinesreach against a raider one time and the person survived and I was like...Welp that was useless.

Riluo

Aarbrok said:

Bombcrafting has been incredibly weak for a long time, I have had it forever but I use it for RP purpose only.
The artifact from what I have been told does NOTHING for the class whatsoever so I was not inclined to buy it. I definitely would like to see some functionality out of them, but yeah, I once chained 20 spidermines in defense of Spinesreach against a raider one time and the person survived and I was like...Welp that was useless.

I spent ages before with the limited resources I got testing it and had the same thing with players just standing there laughing as their boar and racial fixed it (thanks for the info by the way on sulphur).

I am really disappointed in the bombs as I had high hopes of using them for things down the track and went to the bother of investing in the skills and then the broken artefact.

I just hope it is addressed and made viable in terms of the base damage. I mean honestly getting hit for 300ish and it taking 3.5secs of balance is just dumb. I could throw a scythe at you and do more and it is only 3.2secs!!

In terms of the artefact here is hoping it gets made worthwhile... like really worthwhile.

Please fix our bombs @Razmael @Dristin @Keroc @Oleis @Lazerjesus.


UPDATE: a liaison report was made about this in July so seems you are right about the arti issue being known about for a while

Riluo

@Razmael @Oleis @Keroc

Any chance of feedback on this please as there are several people with these issues.

Serrice

@Riluo, just because something doesn't conform to your expectation of value does not mean it's broken.

See, the tracking crop. See the disfigurement artifact. Bombcrafting is no different.

Riluo

Yeah own those. But we are talking about the skills here and the fact the artefact does no increase anything.

Riluo

I have been considering making a few reports for bombs has anyone got some solid ideas to improve it. Perhaps new ideas\tweaks will encourage people to purchase in the skills.

I have already stated a few things I think would be great, but getting feedback/other concepts would be really nice as the thread is about improving on the skills not trying to ignore they exist which seems to be what has occurred with the talents overall.

Sadly though it feels like it is all falling on deaf ears.

Aarbrok

@Keroc - since you recently commented on Bombcrafting in the Artifact thread.....

Instead of buffing the current bombs, could there be consideration for some new bombcrafting discoveries, more functionality, maybe one that creates temporary rubble in a room, or something for a bit of flavour, maybe a bit of room text saying an explosive has blown rubble up here

CLEAN RUBBLE- as a command to clear it out with a bit of balance taken away, but nothing that functionally ruins gameplay or is gamebreaking.

I would love to see some new bombcrafting creations in the least, functionality and roleplay, especially in Spinesreach where blowing things up is kind of a past time, it would be cool to have skills we could use that would act like this.

Maybe a bomb that acts like a mushroom sigil? Could destroy things with flame sigils attached?


A bomb we could throw into water and it would detonate and fish would float to the top....
(with a serious cooldown)

Napalm type bomb that sets a room ablaze...

I have ideas for days.

Alexina

I want a bomb that you throw at someone, causing everyone else except yourself and the target to be hurled out in random directions and suffer something like 10-15 seconds of blackout.

Oleis

Riluo said:

I have been considering making a few reports for bombs has anyone got some solid ideas to improve it. Perhaps new ideas\tweaks will encourage people to purchase in the skills.

I have already stated a few things I think would be great, but getting feedback/other concepts would be really nice as the thread is about improving on the skills not trying to ignore they exist which seems to be what has occurred with the talents overall.

Sadly though it feels like it is all falling on deaf ears.

Assuming you're referring to our ears: It has always been my policy to only make combat-relevant changes during liaison rounds or revamps. Razmael tends to work the same way. Keroc presents an exception to that rule, but he does so at his leisure -- I'm not going to compel him to do something out of the ordinary schedule.

The forums are a place, primarily, for you all to discuss current events and potential ideas among yourselves. We sometimes weigh in, either as a way to make public statements or to clarify vagaries. What we should not perpetuate is the trend where every issue gets a @ping and we're expected to respond or progress cannot continue. I read every single post on these forums, guys. This thread's ultimate goal should be to do exactly what you just said -- compile liaison reports and go through the process we've built to manage combat changes.

Riluo

I like the rubble concept for rp and fish.

@Oleis sorry! it was directed at other player 98% as I know there are ideas floating around. But yes for sure I think doing reports is the way to go.

Oleis

Riluo said:

I like the rubble concept for rp and fish.

@Oleis sorry! it was directed at other player 98% as I know there are ideas floating around. But yes for sure I think doing reports is the way to go.

No worries. I just wanted to clarify, since a lot of stuff tends to begin or end with @oleisrazmaelkeroctrigrumothertheresa and fails to continue without our input.

Aarbrok

I am definitely not much caring on combat implications as much not being a combatant myself, from my observations it looks like Bombcrafting was originally designed as a utility skill for lesser combat, but with recent wartime implications of ballistics and explosions and primarily RP heavy engineering work, I think there is alot of potential available to give flavor with bombcrafting.

That is my only addition to add, and I think we could have some really good developments and RP to go into creating some of these new....explosives. Perhaps an engineering contest for the Cities to come up with a new explosive type, this is something at least in my personal roleplay I have found people more than interested in.

@MotherTheresa
EDIT: Sorry Oleis I couldn't resist, it made me giggle and I hurt myself in the process.

Riluo

I REALLY love the concept of bombcraft having an impact on the environment, but would love to see it having more use in lesser too. In the other thread it was stated we need to be careful of the damage. So moving the skillset more towards lesser would be fun. Perhaps have bombs that:

- mass shackle eld
- kill eld
- create "barriers" in ylem zones which slow movement of a target like a piety/gravehands instead.
- warp the room causing more ylem to leak in bursts to increase the opportunity to gain reserves.
- bombs that can be used in environmental ways to shatter "darkness" and burn ye old vamps (meaning you need to darken the room again) or throw up clouds of "darkness".

The ideas are limitless really. What do people think?

Aarbrok

I think those have potential good uses, I do like the eld oriented ones, perhaps some bombs could have some use in the mines potentially or the fracture?.... dustbombs that cause darkness, and light bombs that create light could be very cool as well.


Even if it was temporary it could give utility use to vampires who dont have access to the darkflood or darkness skills, I like that kind of stuff!

Could also bring in income for cities to utilise their ylem reserves to sell shards.

A sticky bomb that works like a web tattoo, causing someone to have to writhe out of the sticky mess?
(Web_Evasion artifact still works as does uh Disperse against it defensively)

Aishia

I've seen Valingar kill someone with bombcrafting!

Aarbrok

I did it once to myself with a paused system and thirty spidermines.....it is possible

Serrice

I was chased down by like 60 spidermines once.

Keroc

Just to add, I like some of the ideas here. Definitely submit them as reports for liaisons next round.

Aishia

Here's an idea I had! Make a few like BOMB MOUNTS like spidermine as one, throwing as another, planted, etc. Have ones that fire on room entry, area entry, thrown, maybe maybe a kind that can be attached to arrows! LA LA.

Aishia

Strap a bomb on your horse and send it charging in!

Riluo

Quit horsing around and make this happen!

Draiman

@Valingar's spidermine kill was both terrifying and glorious. 

Oleis

Edited thread title to better reflect its goal.

Also, dat horse.

Lim

Trouble with team fights now is that it centers around mobility. If you are targeted and locked down, you are dead. There is no counterplay. When each sides does this, it becomes a numbers game. 

I'd suggest a bomb that makes one untargetable and unable to target (like phase/kai banish) and if you want to make it more interesting, that you need to pick another target other than yourself. Both of you will be able to interact with each other when the bomb is in effect, but not with anyone else. 

Another bomb would that would do what Alex suggested, except it's not you and target, but it'll randomly retain you, an ally, and two enemies. Giving a short window of a random 2v2 matchup. And it's not blackout, but maybe some sort of surrounding barrier that takes a while of channeling to break into. 

Riluo

Perhaps a bomb that causes a random mount to panic and flee from the room (requires pacify mount) to settle it after it flees from the room. Not sure how viable it might be, but could be nice I suppose to break up a group by forcing a random mounted player to exit for a few seconds.

Have the firebomb strip stability on the bomb throwers enemies (1 in 2 chance to strip it) this would still require that they are hit by the "DALTURIAN" then by the grenade to ignite it (total of 6.7 secs to throw both) so its not a fast combo and already blockable and can be dodged/diverted. So combined with a 1 in 2 chance of it stripping its a very low chance of success.

Crystallised bomb: causes chained Eld(s) bindings to turn to crystal then explode as they struggle to break free showering the room with crystal shards as their ylem chains break (max damage of 100 bleed to all present for each chained eld in the room) Make there be a message for it like this to aid in blocking it:

Struggling at their binding the wailing sounds of the Eld erupt as the explosion crystallises their binding. 

followed by a 2 second opportunity to TOUCH SHIELD.

Their binding shattering outwards the enraged Eld shower those present in shards of ylem, causing lacerations to their body. (100 bleed).

Ankyrean bomb: Originally created by a mad Cabalist to kill his syssin lover this bomb is cold to the touch just like her heart.

1clay,1 sulphur, 2 ice

This bomb will implode causing a small pinhole of unstable mass that opens a brief wormhole into the northern tundra thaat strips the air from the room for a second before exploding outwards in a frigid wave of ice and permafrost from deep with the bowels of the tundra. It strips Caloric\Fumeae from those in the room and does 300 cold damage.

Ilyon

Lim said:

I'd suggest a bomb that makes one untargetable and unable to target (like phase/kai banish) and if you want to make it more interesting, that you need to pick another target other than yourself. Both of you will be able to interact with each other when the bomb is in effect, but not with anyone else.

That would make the problem worse, if anything. Don't do it.

Step 1: give the new bombs to 1-2 smallest players on the team
Step 2: tell each of them to toss the bomb at one of the big guys, hereby removing them from the fight
Step 3: wipe the rest

Combat would essentially devolve into "who can carry out the above sequence faster".

Riluo

That might be an issue too. Perhaps tweak it a bit @Lim.








@Razmael's bane: causes Shaun the sheep to enter the room wearing an all blacks rugby jersey and commence the haka!!



jk/ rugby season has just starting so had to be a smartarse

Lim

Make what problem worse, exactly?

Both sides can use the bomb, at different timings, with different combinations. If small guy sacrifices self for big guy, you can do the same to them.

What the bomb does, though, is give you the option of taking yourself out of the focus. The main problem I've identified is that team fighting is one dimensional now - if you're focused, and the team knows how to pin, you're dead. There is literally nothing you can do but trade numbers.