Monk changes

Aarbrok

Just keep in mind this is the forums and most of us are not assuming your relationships when you come off as a unicorns.
-I dont see how damage is an escalation mechanic, but to each their own.

Ill just keep killing people at lessers with 0 combat ability as Monk, I am totally fine with that as the end story, just was trying to justify being one of those people who can literally turn on bashing triggers and killsteal by doing obscene damage, you have justified it for me so I have no further argument to raise.

Ishin

Aarbrok said:

Just keep in mind this is the forums and most of us are not assuming your relationships when you come off as a unicorns.
-I dont see how damage is an escalation mechanic, but to each their own.

Ill just keep killing people at lessers with 0 combat ability as Monk, I am totally fine with that as the end story, just was trying to justify being one of those people who can literally turn on bashing triggers and killsteal by doing obscene damage, you have justified it for me so I have no further argument to raise.

Basically, the lower your % HP, the less your APPLY RESTORATION/clone will cure. So at 100% HP, it will heal 33%. At 50% HP, it may only heal 28%. At 20% HP, it might only heal 20%. That's what @Lim means when he says 'escalation mechanic', in that the lower the HP the monk can keep you at whenever you restore(which they do by combo dmg you), the more the odds escalate in their favor.

Aarbrok

Thanks @Ishin - I tried to make clear im a total combat noob I appreciate the clarification!

Ishin

Aarbrok said:

Thanks @Ishin - I tried to make clear im a total combat noob I appreciate the clarification!

NP. I think they could probably do with a different mechanic. When Alexina was ssl-ing people back when Paladins were first changed, and doing like 2.5k a turn, it got nerfed pretty hard pretty fast. Monks do half again as much, and people are like it's k, just parry it. Or lrn2parry. It's frustrating, because back then you would hear, 'just shield' or 'smoke skullcap, moron'. It doesn't always work like that. Shield has an eq cost, and rebounding has a 6s timer between smoke and raising.

Serrice

Shielding detracts from your own offense. Parrying has no such cost. There's a huge difference, and a comparison is misleading.

Ishin

Serrice said:

Shielding detracts from your own offense. Parrying has no such cost. There's a huge difference, and a comparison is misleading.

If you're getting hit for 44%+ of your HP, you probably don't have an offense outside of HOLY FUCK. Just sayin'.

Serrice

No, that's also disingenuous. You definitely do have one still, otherwise artimonks would be unbeatable - which isn't the case.

Draiman

@Lim

I couldn't help but read most of that post as if you were talking to me like I thought monks were op, or that I had given up, when neither apply to me. I'm super lazy, parry will get fixed when more than one competent active fighter uses monk or I get tired of you melting me. I'M NOT SAYING IT'S INSTA WIN. Caps to catch your attention, not yelling angrily. I feel the only part of your post I can respond to is why I think the torso combo damage is too high.

Anw, yeah, it's mostly feeling. Maybe it's just because I've had the great honor of dying to a lot of completely retarded auto bash routes. Damage like that isn't going to come through without me swearing about it on the forums. I'm to the point to where I don't really care if anyone sees my posts as immature or ragey or whiny. All this shit is politics anymore and I don't have the knack for it. I suck at math, I can't organize my thoughts, and my presentation is always off, and without those it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. So I'm not going to bother.

Lim

No biggy, my main goal from the post was actually to give a breakdown of the numbers and the mechanic, and to demonstrate that it doesn't actually matter whether you take 50pct, 44pct, or 20-30pct. Because parry blocks entire blows, the damage it mitigates scales proportionately to the overall damage of the combo. 

I actually didn't think I was being 'snarky' until Aarbrok felt the need to mention it. If it came across that way, I suppose it leaked through because I was disappointed. That's my problem not anyone else's.

Aarbrok

Its all good @Lim I think I just read it in that tone because thats generally how those sorts of responses can be perceived so thats a my bad...I wasn't legit bothered as much as I was confused I promise. I still u bb.

Lim

hugs and kisses and bbts

Ilyon

Lim said:

Damage is an escalation mechanic in that it reduces a target's ability to restore.

While true in general, the current numbers are a bit too high for them to work as an effective escalation mechanic - torso/head attacks aside, even the limb-targetted ones can reach 30% maxhealth against big audits, which builds up much faster than a graduated escalation system should.

Anyway, there will be a report next round for sure and we can discuss specifics there, though I must admit that it does surprise me somewhat that you consider the current numbers to be balanced.

Lim

Are you talking about 1v1 or team? 

Ilyon

Both, as those numbers are a problem in both these scenarios, for different reasons.

Lim

Eh. Well, go on. Tell us why you feel so?

Also, please share what the basis of your analysis is. Testing, logs, etc.

Ilyon

Ha! Oh no no, my good sir, that's not how this works. Instead, why don't you explain to us poor misguided souls why an on-demand access to damage numbers normally reserved for finishers is a good thing?

(Edit) maybe we should stop trolling each other! Enough time for that when we do the actual report. ;-)

Lim

Um. Okay. >.>

Lim

Already did, but the way. But we'll drop it, sure. 

Trager

I think I can speak for most people when I say that I would very much like to hear both liaison's arguments on the matter, rather than it be confined away forever to some dark and dusty liaison channel. I'm just sayin', been a lot of really good stuff going on here, would hate to lose privy to any of it.

@Ilyon: I feel like you're being extremely counter-productive to what this thread was meant to bring about. There have been numerous citations of mathematics, tactics, logic, and I'm sure there are more than a few logs hanging around that could be called up on-demand. Instead you, a longtime liaison, threw out your opinions and plans for future reports that countered a fair bit of the actual logic provided, while offering none yourself. I know I approached it with you through tells a day or so ago, just talking shop and whatnot, but I don't think I was able to get a strong feel for why this argument you make is in any way, shape, or form, valid. By all means, enlighten me, please. I'm looking forward to seeing your presentation on exactly why these things should be changed, and not just a blanket statement backed up by... Well, nothing.

Ilyon

Trager said:

@Ilyon: I feel like you're being extremely counter-productive to what this thread was meant to bring about.

That may indeed be the case, though I must say that I'm not seeing much constructiveness in this thread, just the usual "yes it's fine" vs. "no it's not" exchange.

Anyway. I'll need to run more detailed testing, as my supporting numbers are still somewhat anecdotic, but right now, what I am currently leaning towards is a report requesting this:

- reduce all Tekura damage by 20%
- add a new attack to Tekura which will "brand" a limb that is restoration-broken currently, and which will cause all further attacks against that limb to do 25-30% more damage. Multiple "brandings" can co-exist, one per limb. This would be an incurable effect lasting 2 minutes or so. Numbers are of course very rough and would need changes. "brand" is a working term, the actual name/flavor would need to be different.
- the above would affect direct damage only, though I'm rather keen of the idea of a separate solution that would request the same being done with limb damage as well. Bit wary of it, as ti's a big change, but I think that it has potential.

The goal with the above, other than the obvious reduction of their on-demand damage potential, is to give monks some mid-fight goals to work towards, while retaining their damage escalation combat style and turning it into an actual escalation.

Still some time left before submissions open, so I may change my mind on this all, but there you have it.

Lim

That suggestion is fine. If anything, it helps to reduce the damage potential in teams, while retaining it in 1v1.

In teams, I do see the current monk damage potentially on the high side, as parrying is less effective against multiple attackers. The balancing factor here is  that monks are incredibly squishy and would be easy to focus and take out under team fight conditions. 

The only thing I'd add is that the proposed change removes an entry point for the casual/new  fighter to participate. The damage monk route is just as easy to counter as it is to attempt. Consequently, removing it raises the barrier to entry to play the monk class, which is, in my opinion, one of the harder classes that Aetolia has to offer. I see this as an unfortunate loss, bringing PVP further out of reach from the average combatant, but opinions may certainly vary. 

Lim

As a measure of how easy it is to counter, you'd notice that Riluo's original post doesn't raise damage as an issue. That's because it no longer works on him, and I've personally stopped trying (except to harass and hope it provokes a mistake).

Nalor

No Rilups post his on about breaks, but if you read the help me mudlet topic, he doesn't pre restore so of course his limbs are going to break easy..

Riluo

@Lim you are correct.

Damage (health) is not a huge concern 1v1 for me personally it is the challenge of managing the new update that causes limbs to break so extremely easily+trauma that cause people to be knocked out/ This is best seen when you understand that(mindblank/timed kaistrike) to a limb followed by the hidden hits (below) result in easy mutilated limbs (90% of the time) that you have no chance of clearing to stand or parry/shield (mutilated left arm).

Bob balls up one fist and hammerfists you.
Bob connects with a solid blow!
H:3200 M:4000 E:32053 W:23385 B:93%
Bob lets fly at you with a snap kick.
Bob connects with a solid blow!

I have been adding bits the last few days to try to counter this issue (thanks to those posting ) and I hope they will reduce it. However, I am still concerned about the ease of breaks at this point in time given the new tweaks.

 - Increased the amount of limb damage Wrench can cause to 15%, up
 from 5%. <---this is evil lol!!
 - Level 1 head damage will now block 25% of all commands until healed.
  - Level 2 head damage will now periodically cause you to fall
 unconscious.(followed by a single axekick for insta kill)

 

Now team monks is a separate issue all together and needs a separate thread. This thread was more in regards to 1v1 combat. Whilst team monk is savage and should be looked into lets all focus on 1v1 please to balance/counter it fairly first.

Nalor

Riluo said:

@Lim you are correct.

Damage (health) is not a huge concern 1v1 for me personally it is the challenge of managing the new update that causes limbs to break so extremely easily+trauma that cause people to be knocked out/ This is best seen when you understand that(mindblank/timed kaistrike) to a limb followed by the hidden hits (below) result in easy mutilated limbs (90% of the time) that you have no chance of clearing to stand or parry/shield (mutilated left arm).

Do Believe I'll just be flogging a dead horse here but I'm not trying to be an ass just trying to point something out..

Kaistrike has been around for years. I've had it built in my system for years as one of the two combat modes but most people on my system prefer cripple mode.. So Your argument for the post is technically an OLD skill owns you?

As the new things for salve curing doesn't effect arm/legs from what I am reading it only effects head/torso damage, So maybe a nerf/rework to the head/torso damage in general so when you get a head/torso damaged you'll survive a little longer as the damage isn't that high so more chance to move/cure... or,

A rework on tiger stance/stances limb damage in general, as 15% per combo in tiger to head (plus (H:1405 blunt) damage) Seems a little high as it means 2 combos and your pushing pre-restoring, and if person is smart you'll be getting different limbs at 15% and building on it so it'll take roughly 5 combos to have 2 limbs level 2 break plus the 1400 damage per..

With the new changes tho many monks I've seen have just been bashing people .. Which is effective but pretty certainly isn't the point behind the new stuff..

The Damage really isn't the issue as many things slow down monk. confusion, clumsiness, parry, so normal parrying/smart parry is also advised to combat monk.

As said at the start of the post, not trying to be an ass, Just trying to blunt about it..

Riluo

I can respect that, so no offense taken mate. I am more tweaking as I go so that I can pop back in a few days to report if anything has improved or not.