Cabalist - Plz2be Reworked

Aarbrok

Since Angwe brought it up....

I mean Cabalist as an organization is fantastic, filled with rich roleplay and pretty amazing folks, we tend to be somewhat in a weird place however combat wise. The class itself is completely behind the times with where current classes are.

Mind you we have strong points (Link, Affliction Curing, Etc)
We have low points (Dependence on some legacy skills that dont thematically fit)

There is a strange disconnect in the way it has been handled, only recently with us getting muddling which mind you does help us in combat to a degree, but generally the only reason I see Cabalist as being a form of overpowered is because no one has really played a combat Cabalist in ...Years.

Diagnose, it is your friend, and the Cabalists enemy.

I know there was a revamp discussed Years ago, and its been pushed aside for Carnifex, Sentinels Twice, Vampires numerous times, Carnifex again, Shamans....and other classes which have needed some dire help.

I just would like to see some love, and maybe Necromancy and Domination to go bye bye.

My questions are:

Is it still a plan?
Do you need help testing and working on it?
Are you open to ideas and suggestions?
(Because I assure you OOC, the Cabal has discussed some thematic ideas and we will help)

@Eleanor @Akaryuterra - both can vouch for me on this.

Oleis

1) There hasn't been a plan for as long as I've been here. @Razmael said at some point recently (Town Hall?) that we don't have standing plans for a revamp, and that's quite true. There's no denying that it's high on the list of classes in need of revamp, but you can trust me that there will no announcement, hint, teaser, or lingering stench of a Cabalist revamp until it's designed, mostly coded, and almost ready to test.

2) In addition to the liaisons, we've brought in help from the existing class's users in our Sentinel, Carnifex, Shapeshifter and Rituos revamps, after the big bugs are ironed out. They're very helpful in ensuring consistent thematic fit, user-friendly controls, etc. When we pursue another revamp, we will almost certainly continue that.

3) Ideas and suggestions are mostly covered by number 2, but the question itself is basically negated by number 1. If there's going to be a Cabalist revamp, it's going to be handled internally, basically until the end.

Kerryn

Apologies for butting in, but I had a question if I may.

I've never been a Cabalist, but what I do know is that they are well known for their scientific rp. Why not start changing some of the skills during liaison rounds a little at a time to show the gradual learning of these 'new' skills, to replace broken/unused skills instead of waiting for all three skillsets to be recoded at once? I realize that sometimes you can't get a full scope of a class till all the pieces are in place to balance it. But if the guild wants to do all the work (Minus the actual coding of course) and then submit a few reports here and there during Liaison rounds why not? We have liaison's who I'm sure would be happy to test the changes as well as guild members eager to help.

If the guild can come together and settle on a direction of the skills. Get admin's approval of said direction. Then do small org ran events that center around small blocks of guild skills that changed due to the study of whatever the new direction is.

There's a risk that the proposed liaison report will be rejected and there would be a delay between when event happened and the actual code being put in and the potential of it being unbalanced at first until all three skillsets are complete. But that happens even to classes that aren't being 'revamped'.

Would this not be more organic for the organization, seeing as they're not looking for a whole new direction, just skills that better fit their rp? Also, would it not be easier on the coders to do a few skills at a time instead of all three trees? While also allowing guilds waiting for revamps to progress, albeit slowly. But lets face it, it's going to be slow no matter what, we only have a few coders. So it's either wait your turn in the revamp line or do it this way and get tossed a bone during a liaison round.

If this is allowed, care should be taken to not overwhelm our coders. Perhaps only approved guilds can submit said reports after they've completed the whole direction and gained admin approval for said direction.

Aarbrok

I think that is more the direction I was looking for @Kerryn - I think the effects of Necromancy the way the Cabal sees it as the rest of the world sees it is a very different thing. We study the essence of things, life and death...manipulation and movement of it via the spheres and it is just as much healing as it is the decay and removal of said essence.

Domination does not really fit with us at all, in all reality the majority of the guild roleplays some sort of ailment when dealing with chaos, be it allergy, distaste, or general dislike of it. The pacts so to speak are an agreement for the chaos lords to serve us, not some relationship we want to have but more one that is there because it just is...its hard to justify on an in game level.

If anything I would like to see us work away from that, even if it was just a re-skin of our legacy skills to be more thematic, I would be more than happy to write up new messages to see it at least look more science and less...we are the bringers of death...rawr.

I appreciate your input because I have tried to ask liaisons in game, and all I get is...yeah it could use work, but no one fights as Cabalist so its not very important.

Kerryn

@Aarbrok, I understand completely. It'd be amazing if their skills better fit with the rp as I think that's something that holds them back at times. "Oh, you use Dominion. You're obviously pure evil." Cabal have their own niche that they can't seem to fully get to, due to that holding them back and everyone trying to lump them in with the Indorani and pure darkies. Not that I see them as an ally ic as I would say someone from Enorian or Duiran, but they do at least in Kerryn's experience garner some respect from her even if it's tempered and cautious. XD

Keep asking the liaison's, keep offering and keep working. It -will- pay off. Ask those that aren't liaison's but are known fighters, get their take on what they think is 'wrong' what to do to 'fix' it, etc. Often they can give you some insight you may not have noticed.

Aarbrok

True enough and I appreciate all the feedback I usually get, @Ezalor , @Lim , even @Valingar have tested little bugs or gave me advice when I notice something not working, I am the loudmouth of the bunch so I tend to pull out my soapbox to try and elicit a response alot of times just to push and see, but my intention is not as much to point fingers as it is to spark discussion.

I will appreciate others to give feedback as well, because there are things that make Cabalist class very strong and there are also serious things that make it very ...broken. My efforts are always to help bring things to current, and in this instance with what we represent as an organization, so that way when the next bout of "You're a Necromancer, you are THE BAD GUY" comes up...I can legitimately say...well not really.

Kerryn

Mhmm... Even if you just tweaked your current skills as you said and renamed and reskinned them for your own guild, it would help. Perhaps try something a bit open source, like a google document to keep track of broken skills, reskinning, etc. That multiple people can add input on. I find having everything in one place really helps and it sparks ideas for new things.

Sometimes being the 'loudmouth' isn't a bad thing, I think everyone can see you're doing it because you care deeply for your guild and Aetolia. You are not trying to corner our coders or admin, but are looking to generally help everyone. I don't think your post came across as anything near negative.

Aarbrok

Also I apologize @Oleis for referencing mention of Cabalists getting a revamp, it was more a subject that has been turning up since 2012 on the forums threads about revamps from numerous players on why the Cabalists have not recieved updates and other various discussions which have taken place, so I worded that improper...

Moreso just a curiosity and hopeful rant than anything

Oleis

Aarbrok said:

Also I apologize @Oleis for referencing mention of Cabalists getting a revamp, it was more a subject that has been turning up since 2012 on the forums threads about revamps from numerous players on why the Cabalists have not recieved updates and other various discussions which have taken place, so I worded that improper...

Moreso just a curiosity and hopeful rant than anything

Nothing to apologize for! I was only so emphatic because I know how hard it is to squash player rumors once they start. (Abhorash says what).

Re: @Kerryn's suggestions of slowly transforming the class: That's always been an option, as far as I'm concerned. Thematic changes to skills can make a huge difference. I know there was one round where Cabalist reports were denied due to some class changes from our end, but in general, you're always welcome to submit reports like the ones you're describing.

Lim

Just my two cents.

I picked up the class a few months ago. Found it unworkable in PVP. Dropped it.

The latest liaison changes (muddling, practical tweak affs, etc) are a result of my experience playing the class and of my view (or an unfortunately watered down version) of what the class needs to compete fairly against others. 

I'm sorry I haven't been able to test further. It's not reasonable or fair to expect me to come up with 300cr for a new class slot and 900cr to tri-trans. And I know no one has that expectation. 

I've actually suggested that liaisons should get access (in-game, not the unrealistic bubble of the liaison arena, which is currently anyway defunct) to all classes for the duration of their service.  That way, not only can we effectively test all classes, there would also be less of the bias that comes with buffing your own classes and nerfing the ones you don't play.

I'm guessing that that request came across as self-serving, as it wasn't taken seriously. This, despite the fact that I play more classes across tethers than anyone else, or that the game and the liaison process would benefit more from it than I would. So that was unfortunate. 

I don't think the latest changes go far enough. I do think the cabal still need, at the least, better curing capabilities, if not a better overall aff rate. However, it is difficult for me to champion all that when the reply can ever be so easily be "have you tested the most recent buffs yet?" 

So those are the difficulties I face, and it is by no means for want of trying to make the class work for you guys. I really do hope something gets done. 

Trager

Personally, @Lim, I wish every Liaison had even a fraction of the intensity you do to help balance and test all of the classes. You've continually been an impartial, fair verbal-sparring partner for myself and tons of others when going over class strengths/weaknesses/improvements. Keep up the werk.

Lim

Thanks for that.  

To be fair, my fellow liaisons put in no less and, in some cases, much more work than I have. Especially behind the scenes bug testing/clearing and testing the current prae revamp/work from before I even came on board. 

Being able to play classes firsthand lets you experience the class strengths and weaknesses in live conditions. You avoid blindspots and tend not to over or underestimate a class' capabilities. This matters tremendously in making an informed opinion. 

It is also harder to propose imbalancing changes when you know that overbuffing a class would mean someone could use it against you, or overnerfing another would mean you can't enjoy it. This is a good check against bias. You think twice. You don't fight and argue for your 'side' but for the general good of the game. 

I've had the privilege of resources (or the curse of addiction) to play multiple classes on alts on both sides. I do think it has put me in a very good position to come up with my opinions. I only hope that others get to experience it too, because it is necessary for what the job requires. 

Ilyon

Kerryn said:

I've never been a Cabalist, but what I do know is that they are well known for their scientific rp. Why not start changing some of the skills during liaison rounds a little at a time to show the gradual learning of these 'new' skills

That's being done, trouble is, an approach like this only works for small-scale changes - "band-aids", if you will. Bigger ones that significantly change how the class is played, which is what would benefit Cabalists the most, are rather unrealistic to put into reports like that.

Valingar

Regarding testing classes: fixing class change modification in the arena would be a great improvement there, and wouldn't require credit investment from anyone. It'd really help bring proper testing to the less used classes. I've built and tested offenses for classes I don't have access to, like Prae and Teradrim, before and learned a lot from it. But the class change arena mod broke at some point, so we can't test that way anymore.

Aarbrok

There is nothing more I would appreciate but to see at least those who do PK or even pick apart skills for their viability to have the ability to do anything, the fact this is a class that people will not take because of underlying issues does nothing more than really harm in the long run. I am not a combatant by any means...but I do combat on a super casual level, and if I am finding bugs, issues and the like, I can only imagine what someone of your guys caliber could pick apart at a more organized level.

I am envious if anything of alot of folks combat/coding ability...
I make pretty things, not things that win fights xD

I suppose the first step would work on the things hindering there being an opportunity for update and change and then being patient. I speak alot on behalf of the organization only because we are small, we have a position where we could have a combat secretary....but the organization has not had a need for such a thing in RL years. Mainly due to the fact....I think Ezrax and Ashmer were the last people who have legitimately fought as Cabalist, and I think both were some time ago...

I really appreciate everyone giving feedback, if anything it does help me understand processes.

Ishin

I've got Cabalist, and I have an offense I made for it too. But one of the actual disturbs was broken(read: still stuck on its previous requirements/one was missing from the new list), so I set it off to the side, and with coding my own system now I just haven't had the chance to actually play it. If I get time, I'll see about putting some work in.

Aishia

Nothing ever stopping you from putting out liaison reports, we've seen in the past a sufficient number of quality reports leading to a mini overhaul using some of the ideas presented as inspiration. Best thing to do is usually look at the totality. Find a problem. Figure out at what stage in an offense the problem exists, imagine a flow of combat and what is missing. It's more simple than it sounds usually. If you can track "abilities to do things go well until x stage then things get dicey" You can usually come up with something to bridge the gap to a kill.

Pypo

There already WAS a neat set of ideas that really fits the theme better!

http://forums.aetolia.com/discussion/417/fallen-and-alchemist-previews/p1

The Alchemy and empowered Tome would easy fit into place that makes science a little more unique AND wouldn't replace numerology.

Chemistry could be a universal mercantile skill, cause....Who doesn't like mixing things that can explode in you're face? Everyone has mutations now even those who don't still have been effected by the pylons to accept racial mutations.

Obviously, its probably a pipe dream, but I really really wish it could come true, a fully science-powered guild would be exciting, specially when its was said its going to have unique mechanical design like blood-borns allowing for diversity in how one alchemist alters their state of being to another. Creating radically different chosen styles to fight.

The idea of a Familiar like a book demon means you have a unique tome tells of you're own method of maddening research into the unknown with studies of demonic, fairy, light, and patterns noticed in the land, etc. To discover inspirations in HOW one conducts their research! It would be awesome to make the book unreadable to anyone but their own person. Forcing others who steal you're personal tome having to use linguistics to 'decipher' the tome((which should takes months at a time))

Aarbrok

Empowered tome was something we have tossed around in the cabal, due to the study of diagrams and wards we use in our Roleplay. Essentially we are able to utilise a focus and then written diagrammatic numerology to elicit effects, or so is what we roleplay doing. Even Aarbrok is still considered a bit of a novice in these sort of studies, but it is something that he -does- do...usually at his own expense.

Pypo

"Respect the paper, fondle the dice, an here's my pencil!" ---3.5 Players handbook D&D & 4th edition

So you better watch out an look twice DM!

*laughs* D&D at its best