The Shattered Vortex

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  • Thanks for the feedback @Malok. I just wanted to let you know that the treants/turtles were setup just to make sure each side had a similar quest and make sure gold gaining from the zone was fair. Not to..give away too much detail, but there may have been something new added in the way of gold getting (hint hint). I'll leave it to you fine people to figure it out! Back on the topic of the quests, I did consider trying to have some sort of alternating quests (kind of like daily quests, or weekly quests, you might get in a MMO). It's something I'll definitely be looking into in the future, but no guarantees for right now.

    As far as the merchandise, I do plan to add new things as time progresses. The initial items were mostly intended to give people some way to mitigate some of the damage/provide better healing to those who don't necessarily have a ton of artifacts. Razmael was awesome and made those two charms able to be used anywhere, so they could be great outside of Vortex too.
    image
    Malok
  • Would be helpful to have a way to check if there are people in the Vortex. Right now it takes 30s to check (another 30s to discover there isn't anyone else). The inconvenience is an unnecessary deterrent.
    Malok
  • More than one entrance/exit? I just want a freaking baby tortoise/turtle thing :( I need ALL THE FINGERS OF ALL THE THINGS. I was denied a baby bat from the Siha Dylis, and now I have to flap Asaraii's broken up wings through Enorians just because SHE REALLY WANTS TO LOVE BABY CRITTERS.
  • I agree wholeheartedly with @Lim. Particularly when its a huge boon for people who use Telepathy.
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • LimLim
    edited April 2015
    Idea:

    The more people there are in the Vortex at once, the greater the rewards should scale. If there are five people in the Vortex at once, the rewards are greater than if there are only two. 

    But there is a catch. When you kill someone else in the Vortex, you gain a buff that scales up according to the number of people in the Vortex when you secured the kill - if your kill occurred when five people were in the Vortex, the buff gives more than if your kill occurred when there were two people. 

    If you get killed, you get a negative buff that bars you from enjoying any of the buffs for a period of time.

    Now, this would introduce a prisoner's dilemma'esque scenario: If you cooperate and not kill one another, and bash/quest within, you get rewarded as there are more people in the Vortex.

    However, as that number grows, you will be tempted to default first and kill the other guy - who knows, he may be thinking the same thing. As that number grows, so does the temptation to default. You will be on the look out for betrayal, and the only way to eliminate that risk and fear is to betray the other guy first. And profit. 

    The idea, ultimately, is to create tension between cooperation and competition strategies.
    AngweZsadist
  • I'd suggest having it scale with people on the 'other side' - for instance, if I'm fighting for one side and you are too, it shouldn't count as 2 people in there for us both. I could roll 10 deep with BL and get fat bonuses and no Eno group can come dislodge us. But if we're all on the same side, it discourages massive groups from going in (after all, then you're just competing for resources with no bonus).

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

  • LimLim
    edited April 2015
    To be honest, I'd actually rather have some kind of ruling (RP led or otherwise) that makes sides not matter in the Vortex, that you should feel free to kill anyone, or cooperate with anyone.

    It gets quite tiring to have the same teams dictating every single conflict in the game. I enjoy the non-partisan element of the Sect of Blades, for example, where there aren't any hard feelings for killing someone on 'the same side'.

    In the context of the mini-game I described above, sides would place a dampener on the tension dynamic - you're obliged to cooperate with some people, and betray others. It limits choice, which is the basis of the dilemma.

    Furthermore, dilemmas and temptation work best when it is within the mind of an individual. If groups can exist without a chance of internal betrayal,  the game would eventually tend toward herd mentality and an  invariable decision to kill the other side. 

    Maximising individuality and the element of choice is crucial to the proposed dynamic.
  • I mean, you're going to get a weird look if you kill someone in the Vortex from your city. Probably odd looks if you kill someone from your tether in the Vortex.

    ...Now my dream area is one where you're assigned a new identity on entry and factions not tied to tether/alignment. You put on the red masque and lead the charge, given the name Wilburt. Fighting Clifford in a blue bandana, you kill him only to find out that you just #rekt your GM. Oops.

    Arbre-Today at 7:27 PM

    You're a vindictive lil unicorn
    ---------------------------

    Lartus-Today at 7:16 PM

    oh wait, toz is famous

    Karhast-Today at 7:01 PM

    You're a singularity of fucking awfulness Toz
    ---------------------------
    Didi's voice resonates across the land, "Yay tox."
    ---------------------------

    Ictinus11/01/2021

    Block Toz
    ---------------------------

    limToday at 10:38 PM


    you disgust me
    ---------------------------
    (Web): Bryn says, "Toz is why we can't have nice things."

    Teani
  • LimLim
    edited April 2015
    Yeah, which is why some sort of directive needs to come from above via the story. Something like it's a place out of time, unaffected by the world outside, etc. It's not insurmountable. Sect is a case in point. Just a matter of a decision to spin it that way. 

    Right now, I do feel frustrated when only people from the same side enter, for the same reasons you mentioned. 

    Would LOVE that sort of anonymous arena mechanic though, whether it is implemented in this mini-game or the next one. 
  • Yeah. I still like this area, but I'm probably going to be visiting it less in the future. Not much complaint on my end about anything Lim has mentioned, even though I agree with it. I just feel like the area is only being used to troll certain people selectively, and not much else. I still appreciate the time and effort it took, however. It seems like it is a work in progress still, at least. I'm sure it'll come into its own sooner or later. :)
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • Much like Lim has said, the only people who ever enter it is usually the same side. I can sit there all day and will usually only ever see darkies enter the Vortex. Why would I kill me own teammates? Answer: I wouldn't. However, thats not my issue with the Vortex.

    My issue is the xp gain and benefits from it. Yes, it is open PK so I have to be PK ready ALL THE TIME. Which is all well and good. However, the main mobs give the same amount of xp as Volcano and Tcanna, which is around 6k apiece on average. I don't feel that the mobs being uncrittable and only worth the same xp as Tcanna/Volcano is all that fair when I can get jumped at any point in time. The xp/min rate is drastically low and isn't all that worth it when you're constantly looking over your shoulder and you can bash tcanna for the same xp WITHOUT having to worry about someone killing you. Personally, if the xp was better, I might bash there more, along with some fair others.

    However, I would like to point out that Lim's posts pretty much hit the nail on the head for it overall. Still a great area though.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • AishiaAishia Queen Bee
    Man I totally kill Enorian people if they're going in neutral pvp zones and I have a valid reason or desire for something they might deny me. I've def seen more sensitive individuals get mad over it but >_>
    HavenAsaraiiRiluoLimAngwe
  • Zsadist said:

    My issue is the xp gain and benefits from it. Yes, it is open PK so I have to be PK ready ALL THE TIME. Which is all well and good. However, the main mobs give the same amount of xp as Volcano and Tcanna, which is around 6k apiece on average. I don't feel that the mobs being uncrittable and only worth the same xp as Tcanna/Volcano is all that fair when I can get jumped at any point in time. The xp/min rate is drastically low and isn't all that worth it when you're constantly looking over your shoulder and you can bash tcanna for the same xp WITHOUT having to worry about someone killing you. Personally, if the xp was better, I might bash there more, along with some fair others

    I feel the same way. Because my char is Indorani, the vortex set up and history of the two sides has a special appeal. Great job with that story line!
    I am not a PK fan but I go there just to bash and support the Aztob, as it is fun to combine an RP reason to bash. The only thing I think should be changed is to allow crits on the mobs. As the novelty wears off i find myself going less to the vortex and more to other crit allowed mobs.

  • I recommend that the xp increase, rather than the mobs be crit friendly. 

    If they are crit friendly, the area will be cleared out in 5 minutes, and that means less play time/chance for player - player interaction in the vortex. It would be unenjoyable for both basher and pvper. 
    RasharZsadist
  • IshinIshin Retired Lurker Virginia
    I'm not sure if it exists, but you could also disable any crits above staggering, maybe. Or whatever the level 2-3 crit is. That way you can still crit, but it's not lol I just did a 50k garrote crit and one shot the mob, and then the one after it, with my OK.
    Tell me and I forget, teach me and
    I remember, involve me and I
    learn.
    -Benjamin Franklin
  • @Oleis, @Razmael, @admin: Is there any way to get the Vortex looked at again and possibly buffed/modified to actually be worth doing? There are many ideas in this thread that could very well be (and should be) used to make it relevant once more, because as it is, you guys spent a ton of time doing multiple events and coding/describing a whole new area for us players to bash/quest/pk in..... but is never used anymore. I'd really love to see this area changed for the better and utilized more frequently.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • SerriceSerrice the Black Fox
    I honestly think that both the Fracture and the Vortex would see more use if you just didn't have a huge, global announcement that someone had gone in.

    I remember when the Fracture first came out, we had parties of one side or another running through it, as like a group activity. Sure, there was always the chance of PK, but at least you wouldn't have a giant bullseye on you the moment you stepped into the zone.
     
    AarbrokIshinFaerah
  • AarbrokAarbrok Breaking things...For Science San Diego, CA
    Yeah I was kinda weirded out by the global announcements on entering PK areas in our game, The Underworld and Annwyn in Achaea were open PK areas and part of the whole point was the nerves you got when someone would come check on you and staying alert while you did bash in those areas. I agree with you on that regard, I think more people would venture there without the announcement.
    IshinSarkisFaerah
  • I will say that I have no plans to buff/modify the area at this time. If I were to 'buff' it, the mobs would be even more difficult. I very carefully modified all mobs and to do so further would likely alienate any that go to the zone and don't have artifacts.

    I have a log of who goes into the zone, so it does seem to get fair usage. I can consider removing the announcements perhaps, but I am unsure if that'll be changed or not. It'll likely be something out of my hands, but we'll see.

    I do have plans to add some new minipets. I've added one so far. I am open to suggestions on types of merchandise people would like to see.
    image
    Zsadist
  • @Dristin: I think I'm causing a misunderstanding with the term 'buff'. For that, I apologize. Allow me to clarify.

    When it comes to bashing mobs in the Vortex, the xp ranks are as follows:

    Treants/demon mobs (crittable): ~5k each/30 mobs total
    Normal guard mobs (non-crittable): ~10k each/40 mobs total/20 each side
    Reinforcement mobs (non-crittable): ~13k each/30 mobs total/15 mobs each side

    Now, take into consideration Tcanna, Xaanhal or Tiyen, three of the most easily accessible areas in the game. Each Tcanna and Tiyen mobs are generally worth ~5k apiece and they're crittable and there's plenty more of them to bash. A hell of alot of more them to bash. Xaanhal mobs are worth ~4k, also crittable and stand roughly at about 100 mobs through the instance and upper levels. Now, when you are bashing for speed/xp/gold, you're more likely to go to these three places because it has a higher payout in a shorter time frame.

    When I say 'buff' I don't mean buff the mobs to make them uber difficult so only a demi-god can kill them. I mean, buff the xp rates and gold drops. Make people actually WANT to go there during high peak hours. I can (and typically do) play Aetolia for 14 hours straight and never see anyone enter the Vortex. Why? Because its not totally worth it. As a heavy basher, there is no reason to go into the Vortex because the xp rate doesn't outdo the speed of which I bash, nor the risk I take when I go in there. If you wanna make it viable, make the gold quests a bit more free and have the mobs drop gold as well as the fingers. Likewise, if you did such a thing, increase how many mobs there are instead of just about 100 mobs in the entire area. Make people WANT to bash there during high time hours and not when there's only like 10 people online with half of them being AFK.

    Alternatively, if you don't want to increase the xp rate, then make an item like a charm that allows you to crit mobs anyway, for like 4 hours or so. And like in the previous paragraph, increase how many mobs are there. I mean, realistically speaking, no organization is going to just send out 20 guards to defend their turf.

    Option 3 would be to do something along the lines of both previous stated options. Again, make the mobs relevant. I will not argue that people don't go in there as there is some decent lore there and a few gold quests for those who don't like to spend 50 hours bashing to get 100k gold or something. However, I can't help but feel if it was made more worth while, it would be a much more active place.



    In regards to the global announcement, its an open PK area. Just like the Fracture and just like the Hunting Grounds. That's just part of the risk of going in there to receive such awesome rewards. You're SUPPOSED to have a bulls-eye on your back when you go enter these areas. Because you don't just enter it and go 'la di da, no one knows I'm here because there's no message anymore. I can do what I want.' No. That's not how open PK areas work. Don't think you can stand up to someone who comes in to kill you? Grab a wing man. This will not only encourage player interaction, but it also forces you to be like 'Hey, maybe I should learn how to fight too'.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • I understood what you meant concerning the buffing, actually. And it's still the same thing. I would have to make the npcs more difficult in order to make the xp increase, which is why the area was far easier in the initial open days then got more difficult once I adjusted it to make the xp more fair. It's the way the xp formulas work. Also, as far as the gold, there is no control over that specifically. As long as the creature is sentient, or set to provide gold, it will choose when to drop gold on its own. It's built into the system. I will re-examine, however, and see if any npcs could perhaps not be set to drop gold.

    Now, onto adding more npcs. That's a possibility, but you have to consider how many actual npcs there are in the zone. In total, there are 310. There are 86 (20 guards, 10-15 of each other npc depending on which side you are looking at) per side of sentient npcs. There are 15 reinforcements that can switch sides, so they are variable. All of these sentient npcs, save for maybe the warriors, have a chance to drop fingers. Other NPCS - 10 treants, 10 turtles. 25 chaos worms that npcs summon, 11 angels that get summoned. That gives either side at least 100 npcs to kill for appropriate quests. There are roughly 67 demons spread throughout the zone that either side can kill. Total gold possible from quests on either side is near 7k. Plus, all of the quests also give xp - not a ton, mind you, but something. It's not unusual numbers for npcs, however.

    Lastly, concerning the critting. The humanoid npcs were set to be non-crittable to simulate it being more like combating other players. There was something in the works to increase damage on the npcs, but it's been delayed and so it hasn't been released yet. It is a thing, however, but I won't go into more specifics on it. There are actually several things in the works that have just been on the backburner because of the other stuff being released right now. They will happen, though, at some point in the future. I may consider a crit charm in the interim, since it may not be as hard to code, so we'll see. I'll run it by who I need to and see if it'd be worthwhile on a PK area like this.
    image
    ZsadistIshin
  • I'd like to give my opinion, since I used to go there all the time when it came out.

    The rewards are not worth the effort and the risk. That is the main problem. I don't just mean exp/gold, either. You don't get either of these from Fracture, and more people still do Fracture than Vortex.

    The type of person who plays Aetolia and would like the rewards in Vortex are typically not the type of person that can handle the risk. The only reason I've ever went in there and tried to get fingers is to buy @Callidora one of the baby turtles. Obviously she really wants this turtle minipet, but isn't a pker, so she has no interest in going in there herself.

    When you do Hunting Grounds, you're getting solid, useful, meaningful items. When you do Fracture you're getting ylem mists if you have Glyph, and you're getting massive amounts of ylem for your city which leads to credits.

    When you do Shattered Vortex, you get a baby turtle and a mount. These are neat, unique things, too. They just aren't practical enough to bother with for most PKers and the risk is too high for non-PKers.

    I think this has been said before, but I think this is the real problem, not the exp/gold/mobs. I made a system in the Indorani to reward participation, but it fell apart and no longer saw use when I left the Secretary position.(My bad).
    "Hell hath no hold on a warrior’s mind, see how the snow has made each of us blind. Vibrant colors spray from new dead, staining the earth such a beautiful red."
  • I'm going to go ahead and close up this thread. However, I wanted to make sure to note that Razmael added in a bit of code that makes it so crit_immune NPCs (not eld, though) will provide 50% more xp. Hopefully that'll help. Keep an eye out for changing merch over the next few weeks.
    image
  • edited October 2015
    This has been re-opened due to recent changes being made, in case anyone has questions.

    +--------------------------- CHANGELOG ENTRY #1067 ----------------------------+
    | Entered by: Dristin Date: 2015/10/22 16:26:05 |
    +--------------------------------- CHANGE ------------------------------------+

    Several Vortex changes. Slaying the NPCs no longer changes which side has extra reinforcement
    warriors. Quests only will now affect those extra reinforcements. Both sides now accept treants and
    turtles at one of their questgivers, you'll have to figure out who. Ayeli and Junal will now hide
    when their opposing side is 'ahead', IE, have more reinforcement warriors than the other. Their
    merchandise has been split up and new merchandise is being planned. Because of the more recent
    events, some Sciomancer and Ascendril NPCs have been added. Monks have been renamed specifically to
    be Sentaari monks.

    +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    image
    Zsadist
  • Do the warriors that stand with the turtles and treants count toward his 'being ahead' figure?
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • edited October 2015
    The being ahead warriors are those that will have capitalized organization names, like "blah blah warrior of the Aztob" versus the non-varying warriors that will be "blah blah warrior of the aztob". If that doesn't answer the question enough, let me know. I will probably try to figure out a way that you can check which side is currently 'winning', I just haven't gotten to that yet.
    image
  • I just went through the Vortex and I cleared all (15) the Capital Demonsbane warriors trying to get Ayeli to show up, but yet she is still hidden. Likewise, I have not seen any Capital Aztob warriors that would indicate that their side is winning. Am I doing something wrong or am I missing something in general?
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


  • You misunderstood how it works. Killing things does nothing. Only quests will affect which side is in the lead. So, you could turn in your slain warriors to the Aztob npc that wants them and that should push them into control.
    image
  • Can I turn them in still if I'm an enemy to both sides?
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


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