If you could change anything about death in Aetolia, what would it be?

Oleis

All that spirit anchor conversation got me thinking! What would you change about death, dying, and resurrection in Aetolia?

Ishin

Honestly, @Oleis, I'm not entirely sure we could do much of anything with death, dying, and rezzing in Aetolia that wouldn't seem kinda griefy. I think Imperian's way was okay. Where you went to the underworld, did a couple of quests or paid xp(right?) and came straight back.

The thing with death here is that like, pre-99/100, dying really sucks. After you hit endgame, though, you die and you lose like...1% or so, compared to the MUCH more that someone lower loses.

MKO has this aspect of PK where if you die to another player you don't lose xp. Don't gain it when you kill someone, either. It's kinda like purely a PvE thing there, sorta, except it affects your stat points and your HP, etc. All sides have access to a rez there, too, which makes a difference imo.

Aishia

1. I think the disparity between vampire and living death times is WAY too broad a gulf. Even with spirit anchor (And apparently that's been working for vamps too!?) Vampires without it take less than half the time to come back. (I think the time is actually a crazier number, will test when I have time, was months ago last time I checked) But it's seconds to minutes so far as I am aware.
2. Since rez isn't an option vamps don't have any malus to having corpses destroyed. Lots of kills destroy corpses, and a new arti was just introduced to make even more do so.
3.Rez is the justification for lifer time being so much slower, but in reality with triggered corpse grabbing you probably actually see it 1/10 deaths unless you wipe the other team.

Areka

I would love to still be able to listen/hear/chat on webs while waiting, at least just to monitor how things are going while.

Aishia

Sometimes it seems like you can see deathsight but it seems to cut off at some point midway.

Pypo

Death and dying eh? This is a tough topic when it comes to understanding what IS happening. Mortals go before the boring underking who is NEVER at his chair, to look at a stupid mirror. Undead end up in the void of darkness. An vampires are unlinked from needing to pick and choose a place to go, and can end up anyplace they wish. Here is a list of random things come to mind:

I found it interesting playing a shaman an their beginning of their lore is explaining about Dendara and the fact there are undead whom were travellers inside of the primordeal plane. Overall, undeath itself feels incredibly subtle in the current state of affairs. Everything we hear about in Aetolia is mortal or vampire related, but nothing specifically about undead. I was wondering at the possiblility of showing some picture of the gains of carnifex souls and what all the souls siphoned from the underhalls actually is DOING to the underkings' domain or to the underking himself.

I was thinking about a possiblity of unlinking the shadow tether and mortal tether from the land of the dead, an creating a bastardization of 'spirit-bound & shadow-bound' wraiths that players become, granting access to exploring the shadow-planes and underhalls to finding the missing fragments of their essence. Kind of give a subtle way of enjoying being able to break through the spiritual world and haunt the lands of aetolia to re-gain lost experience. Personally? I always wished Illumination AND Necromancy were general skillsets that become iconic to ALL mortals and undeads. Mortals gaining illumination until they become undead beings and instead learn ghastly effects of necromancy, Mortals capitolizing on illumination of their inner spark, meditation and purity of spirit. Each one is powerful enough to give all players a universal toolset that helps them survive. I always believed undead should capitolize on their ghastly bodies an be able to do unspeakable things with their bodies.

In this same experience, players basically gain ability to explore these places outside of their mortal bodies, discover things not meant for mortal & undead spirit. Maybe even forming parasitic spiritual bonds that in turn feed from a mortals' mental memories (EXP) which in turn grant something to the being. I personally think that if a undead's head isn't taken off, or some important organ is not removed, the undead body should be capable of rising up again after death, or maybe slink down into the ground to rapidly regenerate in the earth naturally. Players whom are vampires and not using their vampire gifts, should be granted earthmeld as a natural ability to regenerate. Sleeping on the ground is just horrible once you accepted to become a vampire!

Areka

In-room Deathsights would be amazing, as well as for webs to spit out an automated message of when web members die (maybe config'd)

Rashar

I just want to be able to chat with other lost souls. You know, reminisce on that particularly painful vivisection.

Idk. I don't think making it any more 'permanent' or long term damaging is going to do any bit of good when it comes to encouraging more people to get into the fights. I think it'd be neat if your defenses persisted if you got resurrected, but not if you had to wait out the whole sequence. That'd help people bashing, too, but I guess it's only a few seconds so not a big deal or worth coding.

Kendri

It would be nice if when you don't accept a Revive right away it doesn't clear after the next death sequence message and still lets you accept.

At least that's the way it seems to me. Unless I have it triggered to accept, I'm too slow.

Ishin

It would be handy if you could rez a fellow citizen from a linked shrine within your city. Could make it a ylem tree skill and have it cost a little bit of ylem to rez them.

Arbre

It would be nice if you could do stuff while you're dead instead of wait, bored. Just simple things, like be able to look at help files and such.

Ezalor

Aishia said:

1. I think the disparity between vampire and living death times is WAY too broad a gulf. Even with spirit anchor (And apparently that's been working for vamps too!?) Vampires without it take less than half the time to come back. (I think the time is actually a crazier number, will test when I have time, was months ago last time I checked) But it's seconds to minutes so far as I am aware.

Vampire death timers are:

ENTOMB: 3.5s channel, followed by 45s death time, 5s rise time, and 4s to deathlink. That's 57.5s total death time, which can be cut down to 53.5s if you don't deathlink again. This is only available to Praenomen.

DIFFUSE MIST: 90s death time, 5s rise time, 95s total.

EARTHMELD: 120s death time, 5s rise time, 125s total.

Add on spirit anchor and the fact that vampires can't be revived and I would say the disparity favours non-vampires if anything.

Tested spirit anchor on diffuse mist, it has no effect. Unable to test earthmeld because it's still broken on liaison server.

Kendri

As a note, looking back on my log to one of the times I died today. Spirit side is 167s, without an anchor. That's nearly three minutes of doing nothing.

Ezalor

In my testing with lifer death time it appears to fall within 160-163s without spirit anchor. So with spirit anchor you would revive in ~80s, which is shorter than everything except Entomb.

Lim

The ability for living people to opt to permadeath.

This would be akin to suicide, except the character will remain in existence, can be HONOURS'd, though it will give a line saying that they have passed away.

Permadeath will liquidate all skills, giving back 2/3 or 1/2 of all lessons. You'll be made to start over as a new character as a different name, restarting at level 1 on the island, or level 5 off it. For logistical reasons, I think it might be better to leave the artis alone.

Oleis

Lim said:

The ability for living people to opt to permadeath.

This would be akin to suicide, except the character will remain in existence, can be HONOURS'd, though it will give a line saying that they have passed away.

Permadeath will liquidate all skills, giving back 2/3 or 1/2 of all lessons. You'll be made to start over as a new character as a different name, restarting at level 1 on the island, or level 5 off it. For logistical reasons, I think it might be better to leave the artis alone.

Unfortunately, this would have to go in at a corporate level, and they're not open to it.

Ishin

Kendri said:

As a note, looking back on my log to one of the times I died today. Spirit side is 167s, without an anchor. That's nearly three minutes of doing nothing.

Takes me about a minute, tops, to come back with spirit_anchor. Lot of times I come back before the actual fight is done, since I usually get focused first, and can actually run back and jump back into the fight.

Zsadist

Ezalor said:

Vampire death timers are:

ENTOMB: 3.5s channel, followed by 45s death time, 5s rise time, and 4s to deathlink. That's 57.5s total death time, which can be cut down to 53.5s if you don't deathlink again. This is only available to Praenomen.

DIFFUSE MIST: 90s death time, 5s rise time, 95s total.

EARTHMELD: 120s death time, 5s rise time, 125s total.

I have never entombed, you know, being a BB and all. But I do DIFFUSE MIST alot when I fight and the timer isn't 90s. Its 120s (same as Earthmeld) with the 5s rise time, so its the same as Earthmelding times. Plus, please correct me if I'm wrong, if you DO diffuse mist, you only have one option and that's to TOUCH PYLON to exit the Dark Void to go back to the cities pylon.

Also, I agree with @Arbre..... lemme look at help files or listen to web tells/clantells still while I'm in the deathphase. Because right now, when I die, I walk away and grab a drink or something because I can't do anything but watch a blank screen pass waiting for the 2 minute mark before I can rise again.

Gwenith

It would be a metric tonne of work but flavour wise I think having death sequences that reflect what class you died in woukd be neat. Luminary having to will their spark to reignite, shamans seeing former Praadi and struggling to return , Vamps feeling their bodies being torn apart and focusing to make a new one. (I have never died as an undead so sorry)

The sequences wouldn't need to be as verbose as the current one. Maybe cut it into 5 or so emote just with longer spacing between them so it would still be the same length spent dead. It would give us something different from the other games and I love flavour. I also love apple cider.

Ilyon

Zsadist said:

But I do DIFFUSE MIST alot when I fight and the timer isn't 90s.

It is 90s.

Zsadist

Thats quite odd... when I diffuse mist, this is what my timer always says:

[Tripwire]: Cured: PRONE (120.XXs)

I'll start logging more times to see if I can manage to find a 90s rerise time.

Lim

Oleis said:

Lim said:

The ability for living people to opt to permadeath.

This would be akin to suicide, except the character will remain in existence, can be HONOURS'd, though it will give a line saying that they have passed away.

Permadeath will liquidate all skills, giving back 2/3 or 1/2 of all lessons. You'll be made to start over as a new character as a different name, restarting at level 1 on the island, or level 5 off it. For logistical reasons, I think it might be better to leave the artis alone.

Unfortunately, this would have to go in at a corporate level, and they're not open to it.

Yeah, I suspected as much. It was more like wishful thinking out loud.

Nola

I still like Lim's idea though but not for the same properties. My own version would.be more, once in the halls, you are not immediately placed at the mirror - it is a choice to visit the mirror, or wander. When you wander, you should be able to logout. In this way, it isn't so much actual permadeath - its still as permanent as you want it to be - maybe you need a break and this is a good way to icly go about it. Maybe you wanted to die in a great battle and end the story there -/or rise again years later a changed being. When HONOURS'D there would be a note or something that reflects that this character has yet to return from the halls of the dead.

Aryanne

@nola's idea there sounds like an EXCELLENT compromise to a lack of permadeath. Just a simple "Is wandering the Halls of the Underking" or something of that sort in their honours until they decide to rise again (if ever). Maybe some flavour text that makes it somehow "appealing" to the character to stay in the halls? vague things about feeling at peace or something.

Would seem to follow to allow "dead" characters to then interact (but no violence, skills, or defs applied).

And, if this became a possibility, it would somewhat follow that anyone who chose to wander instead of revive via mirror, would be stripped of their elected positions, as if they had suicided.

Nola

I wouldn't want anything to be stripped of them. Just like if someone had naturally passed on, or died, the people would be left to decide what they needed to do next. Who knows how long they'll be gone for? Maybe they're not REALLY dead! Left to yearn and hope until they're forced to make the decision they regret having to make. Ahh the suspense. The TENSION. The loss.

"I sat and spoke with the dead ancestors of our past for a millennium before I realized I was one of them."

Aryanne

I suppose you have a point there, but in my head I am imagining three options upon death, "Wander" "Revive" "Do nothing and decide" So that the player is actively choosing to be mechanically stripped of stuff. But, to me it seems more "real" to have them lose their positions. Because, IRL, when your leader dies, you suddenly have no leader, and that can create such tension and activity! Sudden trying to squabble over power, etc. etc.! Will they come back and fix this problem? Should a new person hop into place? What to do!?

But, if, for example, Character A has been long wandering, and Character B decides to die and wander in an attempt to find their lost brethren and convince them back to life, I could see it being a problem that they're essentially giving up their elected positions of power by doing so.

That said, I like consequences, and I feel like that is a good example of giving actual consequences to death. Cause right now I feel like the consequences just aren't there, making it bland and meh.

Teani

I like some of these ideas you've given already and thought that maybe there could be more options upon death, since many players are either not allied to the Underking or their deaths might have a special purpose in RP, while others just want to return like normal and not be bothered. I have no personal experience as an Undead, so this is mainly for living.

Upon death as mortal you could get the choices:
- Returning - Simply paying your respects to the Underking and being allowed to return as usual.

- Contention - Held back by the Underking from returning, you remain in the Halls to contest His judgment. Contesting might lead to failure, where your essence will be scattered. which you would have to find in order to return, or in success after a good argument, where you are allowed to return like normal. This would show in honors as "is within the Halls of the Underking, arguing their place among the living." or something like that.

- Wander - where one can simply wait things out in peace or where mates are allowed to sacrifice themselves to come to the Halls and convince you to return. Shows in honors as "is wandering the Halls of the Underking." or something

- Ghost - Allowed to return immediately as a ghost without being seen, only to spectate. Any action would return the character to the Halls and given the other options, as they are being too restless to remain a ghost.

Lim

Nice. I really like these afterlife ideas. Especially the spectating as a ghost and the hanging out in the Halls.

Don't think positions should be automatically stripped though. Can leave it to the orgs to decide how they want to handle replacement. Leaves room for crazy/inactive orgs who leave dead people on their roster. IRL it's not like people automatically lose their positions when they die- it's the people still living who decide what to do with them.

Ezalor

Further testing with spirit anchor, it doesn't work on diffuse mist but will reduce Earthmeld to 65s total time (add on probably 5-10s to move to a safe room to earthmeld in) and Entomb to 28.5-32.5s death time. I don't know of anyone who has both spirit anchor and uses Entomb but the time is already short enough that spirit anchor working with it is probably unnecessary.

Moirean

Re vamp being op...I often rez people midfight. I also often used my own corpses to get hearts. I can't do either of these with vamps. It's a notable downside. I think that nicely balances out the speed advantage vamps have and I refute the claims that it's super OP.

@Ezalor that's why I asked diffuse be looked into. I was like what when you guys were saying it was faster than earthmeld.

As for death itself I understand the concept of a penalty but part of me misses the small levels Avalon had. There were only like 15 and do was super easy to get so you'd fight all day and even if you died a ton an hour or two of bashing or some successful kills got you hopping back up in xp.

I guess I miss that thrill of xp ups and down from pk. It is more profitable to just bash and killing someone or dying doesn't do anything exciting to my xp bar.

Re the custom death sequence messages I asked about these at the carni meeting with admin a few months back and was told it was unlikely but I think it wouldn't be THAT time intensive to make personalized messages based on city and guild (plug in stuff mad libs style) and more extensive customization could be a really awesome rp reward or punishment. Imagine if you pissed off Slyphe and when you died you got tossed around in a maelstorm and dragged onto a ghost ship before being thrown back to life on a crashing angry wave.

Amberlea

With newer policies like no xp loss at lessers and stuff I doubt you're going to get any additional xp losses from pvp.

Alternatively, there could maybe be some other resource that is gained/lost from player killing or pvp death. Think like sect points without so stringent of requirements to earn/lose and could maybe be traded or used for something so people felt like there was a reason to desire it beyond chest thumping.