Short Discussions

Keroc

I'm starting a new thread in here since sometimes we don't really have a full page of ideas and plans for people to look through, instead we might just be curious what the player base might think about a small part of the game.

So to start off, how many of you like/use the combat rankings system? I'm considering adding a couple extra things to it, or just retiring the system and holding onto the best parts of it (logs of duels for example).

Moirean

I find the combat record really helpful for tracking tasks, tournaments, etc. Combat ranks on their own seem to be very underused. At one point I wanted to get the honors line so I fought a bunch to get up there, but there isn't really any prize or value in going up the ranks more than once, and it reaches a point where it's kinda insurmountable midway through the season if you join late. If there were prizes for being in the top # ranks at the end of the season (pretty sure Achaea rewards credits), or maybe extra gold rewarded for a win the more you fight, or sect points given out through ranked spars, or some type of token/currency you could earn to trade in for stuff, I think you'd see a lot more activity.

Also 2s, 3s and 5s rankings. That would be super fun, to be able to queue as a group and get ranks with a team of friends.

Ilyon

Pretty much the only thing combat rankings are used for are tasks/tournaments where you want to have some proof that the fight(s) have actually occurred. A better ranking method may help there a bit, but as classes vary so widely in their 1v1 power, and the number of people interested in this style of combat is fairly low, I wouldn't really expect it doing much.

Valingar

The regular combat rankings don't interest me much. The current way the rankings work aren't any indication of how good you're in combat, just how good you're at picking your opponents. There's nothing to force you to fight opponents you know you'd lose against. On a slightly related tangent, I'd love to have some incentive for even, smaller scale group fights, though. 2vs2 or 3vs3 fights are some of the most fun I have in Aetolia.

Lim

I haven't been using the combat rankings. The main reason is that there are no incentives attached to it. Another reason is that there doesn't seem to be an active community of combatants using it.

I started using the Sect of Blades because it has incentives attached to it. I also started using it because I assumed that people who joined would be pretty keen on combat, and that would be where I can get the most practice. Getting a customised deathsight (or eventually the Crown of Omens) is quite a nice perk to work toward, though I think the perks are quite limited.

An observation I have on the Sect of Blades is that it is difficult to find fights after you progress to a certain level. Despite the anonymity, it is often easy to guess who the challengers are, and thus pick your battles.

Another reason I suspect the Sect of Blades is underused is because of the intimidating RP surrounding it. Most people don't look beyond the story to realise that at 200 points a win and 20 points a loss, you need to have epic losses (>10 out of 11 fights) to not breakeven. The lore around is cool and elitist, no doubt, and I wouldn't have thought it a bad idea at the time too. But I guess one unforeseen side effect is that it raises the perceived barrier to entry.

Put these observations together, and I'd think the way ahead would be to provide participation rewards in combat, not just rewards on winning. Rewards contingent on winning, disincentivises participation in battles that you predict you will lose. In contrast, rewards based on participation would have you more likely to give it a chance. I think overcoming fear and intimidation is half the battle won. Only by trying and improving will confidence be built.

The combat community is small enough that I think it needs all the help it can get. Do share with us your ideas! I'm sure we're all pretty keen to help getting it to grow.

Moirean

The hour-long CD for issuing spars is the big killer for Sect of Blade interest for me, personally. I get in moods where I want to PK and I can do...maybe 1 or 2 fights, and then I have to sit and wait an hour, so I just end up doing something else instead. Also, the arena being entirely indoors and hence encouraging certain classes over others is meh. Finally, as Valingar mentioned, 1v1 isn't everyone's cup of tea, especially with class balance being all across the board. I enjoy PK. I don't enjoy 1v1, currently, and because I don't it feels like I basically just need to sit out of PK or play other games to get that enjoyment.

This isn't really related to combat rankings, but - in general - Aetolian combat is really lacking objective-based stuff, and the heavy recent influx of AI combined with the disabling of the war system only underscores how little meta-level tactical gameplay there is.

Oleis

Would changing the cooldown to a shorter time limit on sparring the -same- opponent be helpful? I can see the intent, to discourage gaming the system, but this alternative might still fulfill that while offering more possibilities.

Aishia

I agree that combat rankings is unappealing and irrelevant and I'm not sure even adding more functionality would change that. Might be better to just scrap it.

Toz

Game needs more, not less.

Moirean

Oleis said:

Would changing the cooldown to a shorter time limit on sparring the -same- opponent be helpful? I can see the intent, to discourage gaming the system, but this alternative might still fulfill that while offering more possibilities.

Like remove the CD for issuing/accepting, unless it's the same person you just fought? That'd be fine. I'd lower that CD as well, anyways. Nobody is really drowning in hundreds of thousands of sect points and most people with high numbers did it by farming new/learning members, even with the CD.

Trager

I disagree with that statement. I've fought nearly everyone in the sect, with no real specificity in opponent. I started off losing, getting my ass kicked by Syssin, Indorani, Monk, Ascendril, and slowly started winning them. I kind of resent any implication of 'farming' my way up using the Sect.

Moirean

Yes, and as you were doing that, other people repeatedly remarked in web that you were the one challenging - as you were new, you were an easy source of kills/points. Hence, farming. It's not an intentional or cheating thing, but rather a side-effect of how the system is designed.

Lim

Oleis said:

Would changing the cooldown to a shorter time limit on sparring the -same- opponent be helpful? I can see the intent, to discourage gaming the system, but this alternative might still fulfill that while offering more possibilities.

If you're removing or lowering the cooldown on killing the same person, might as well remove or lower the cooldown in general.

It is easier to farm by colluding with one person than a range of people.

Rashar

I think he meant opposite of what he typed, @lim.

Or uh. Maybe not. But that's how I took it.

Oleis

Yeah, the exclusivity was implicit but not terribly clear. The general CD would be removed and a shorter one would prevent re-challenging the same combatant.

Keroc

Lim said:

I haven't been using the combat rankings. The main reason is that there are no incentives attached to it. Another reason is that there doesn't seem to be an active community of combatants using it.

I started using the Sect of Blades because it has incentives attached to it. I also started using it because I assumed that people who joined would be pretty keen on combat, and that would be where I can get the most practice. Getting a customised deathsight (or eventually the Crown of Omens) is quite a nice perk to work toward, though I think the perks are quite limited.

An observation I have on the Sect of Blades is that it is difficult to find fights after you progress to a certain level. Despite the anonymity, it is often easy to guess who the challengers are, and thus pick your battles.

Another reason I suspect the Sect of Blades is underused is because of the intimidating RP surrounding it. Most people don't look beyond the story to realise that at 200 points a win and 20 points a loss, you need to have epic losses (>10 out of 11 fights) to not breakeven. The lore around is cool and elitist, no doubt, and I wouldn't have thought it a bad idea at the time too. But I guess one unforeseen side effect is that it raises the perceived barrier to entry.

Put these observations together, and I'd think the way ahead would be to provide participation rewards in combat, not just rewards on winning. Rewards contingent on winning, disincentivises participation in battles that you predict you will lose. In contrast, rewards based on participation would have you more likely to give it a chance. I think overcoming fear and intimidation is half the battle won. Only by trying and improving will confidence be built.

The combat community is small enough that I think it needs all the help it can get. Do share with us your ideas! I'm sure we're all pretty keen to help getting it to grow.

I don't really have anything solid since I mostly wanted to gauge how people felt about the combat system first. Mostly just some small things like the ability to place a bet on a spar, free arena fees if you're in the top 3, or even a mod that allows ranked arena events. The thing is, if I do add any incentives, I feel like that I'll simply split our already small competitive combat group into two, one that works for Sect, and one for combat rankings. This is why I'm considering just retiring it, it'd be easy enough to push any really good ideas into the Sect and hold onto the best of the combat rankings for normal duels.

Jensen

I think it'd be more effective if you had to to beat the person ahead of you to advance to their spot, and your score was a countdown timer to being dropped by 1 spot so that you don't just coast at first place. Provided people don't abuse it by having their friends lose on purpose....

Lim

@Jensen‌:
I think a problem with that would be if people go inactive.

@Keroc‌:
I definitely think they should be merged, yeah. Without the 'safe space' of arena spars (or ranked arena spars?), maybe it'll nudge people to put aside the notion that Sect is exclusively for srsbizns competition.

Lim

@Jensen‌:
I think a problem with that would be if people go inactive.

@Keroc‌:
I definitely think they should be merged, yeah. Without the 'safe space' of arena spars (or ranked arena spars?), maybe it'll nudge people to put aside the notion that Sect is exclusively for srsbizns competition.

Jensen

Not really, you're not the top fighter here if you aren't here. Their timer ticks down and suddenly they aren't in first place.

Riluo

Wrong thread my bad..

@oleis Can we please have technique scrolls work on Bloodborn scythes. It is silly they do not given they are a hunting weapon. Please ...please!!!

Keroc

Something minor to bring up with you guys.

A number of people have said they would have liked it if the rags from Toxicology would let you apply directly from your fluidcache. With something like 26 venoms, I'm in support of this idea as opposed to simply having rags act like vials. But I also understand that a number of you have likely already created yourself a bunch of rags and sorted out your venom woes, and I don't really want to upset those of you who have already gathered all the necessary materials.

Does this sound like something you guys would like, or would you rather things left alone and for me to work on other things?

Nothing promised at this stage, just looking into interest!

Zsadist

I'm not quite sure I understand how you mean. Are you basically talking about supporting an unartifacted venom rag, since it will take the venom directly from the cache??

Personally, I'd prefer both rags/vials as venom items, simply because alot of us purchased extra artifact vials for venoms when the changes were made to decay times and everything. Just my opinion.

Toz

1 rag as an applicator, drawing direct from fc. Vemom rag Artie stays unchanged since it generates venoms, everyone wins.

Keroc

Toz said:

1 rag as an applicator, drawing direct from fc. Vemom rag Artie stays unchanged since it generates venoms, everyone wins.

Pretty much this here.

Zsadist

I feel like alot of people with venom rags would get pissed off... ah well. I'd still like vials to remain an alternative option as well.

Draiman

Why would they? Venom rag is an ENDLESS SUPPLY of venoms. It's not coveted because it eliminates the need to carry around extra vials/rags. It's because you will never have to purchase another venom ever again in the history of ever.

If someone is going to throw a fit because making it to where 1 rag is needed to draw from your fluidcache (meaning you still have to purchase the venoms) some how invalidates their purchase/grind for the elusive venom rag of ancient fabled legend, then excuse me for being rude, but they need to cry that river, build a bridge, and get over it.

Lim

I want vials to be removed and let us have a shot glass that draws automatically from our fluidcache.

Drawing upon the reserves in your fluidcache, a frosted shot glass fills instantly with a shot of health elixir.
You slam a shot of elixir down your gullet.
The elixir heals and soothes you.

Zsadist

I dont want everything to draw from the fluidcache. I dont know about anyone else, but I dont have the fluidcache expansion artifact, but even if I did, it wouldnt help much. I can go through my 1500 hits in fc + 8000 hits from my 50+ health vials in about 6 hours of bashing.

@Draiman, I agree with you there, but people are people and will find a way to get uppity about anything.

Either way, I'd still like options to be able to use a rag or vials.

Toz

That argument is irrelevant here as a vampire would go through 1.5k sips of a venom in like an hour and a half of non-stop fighting without pause to refill. Venoms from FC save you needing like 500 rags, and having rags does not meaningfully contribute to anything except comm stuff.

Riluo

I am somewhat confused here as I purchased several artifact vials for venoms. Do they get refunded or what now as they serve no other purpose if I am to use a rag instead?

@Keroc
Also where do you get venom rags as no one seems to make them, sell them nor be able to envenom their weapons right now without them.