Endgame race lore

Iosyne

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Xavin

Daingean said:

Also. Please to be reskinning Azudim. I get that we're moving to this whole shiny-happy-people angle where we accept stuff and throw off the old miasma[nopun] but seriously. They look like baby eaters. Everything -about- them screams 'I dissect children with a cold beer in hand.' and it's just.. really, really hard to see them as anything else.

I really, really feel that the whole Azudim thing is all in how you spin it. For a long time they were considered the "Generals of the armies of Undeath", and there is a book in-game that supports that stance, as well as outright stating that Yeleni are diametrically opposed to Azudim. As of late (within the last few real-life years, that is) there has been a push to redefine what Azudim are. Now Azudim are just being filled with the essence of "death", which would give them more of a lifer sort of feel, really, since death is a vital part of the doctrine that many life-aligned organizations follow -  the cycle, the rhythm, etc.

This was compounded, I feel, by the introduction of Idreth which represent mastery over the self rather than any part of the overarching conflict of the game. And we still have a major player org that follow the old "Generals of Undeath" role for the Azudim, going so far as to allow living individuals with Azudim to join a city that is otherwise full of undead.

So what needs done?

I think that Azudim needs to be more clearly defined with some very accessible lore. Heck, Yeleni and Idreth could use that too. And on top of that? There needs to be a couple more endgame options. I know Liches were discussed at some point, years ago now. I think it would be a good idea to have an endgame form that only undead can take, one that leans heavily towards Undeath, our three existing ones, one that leans heavily towards Life and one that only living individuals can take. That'd make seven forms, not counting Ankyrean which was a one-off thing.

Edit: Heck, you could even just use the existing ones and add two more. The scale would be something like this:

Undead Only  (presumably Lich) - Azudim - Idreth - Yeleni - Living Only (this one would be weird. Something related to the Dumavi, the Spirit Plane or, and this is a stretch, Dendara)

Kiyotan

How about we all just follow Liska and be foxes

Lin

I AM SECONDING FOX END-GAME RACE

(come on serrice where are you this is all you baby)

Daingean

I know it's a matter of spinning.

I'd be glad to have Dain say 'Dhar said Azudim are cool, so they're cool.' - mostly because Dhar -did- say that the whole reason Azudim have any sort of poor reputation is because mortals gave it to them.

But the image of the race is  doom and gloom, and as a firemonk, where Yeleni in almost every aspect -ooze- light/life/vitality, it's difficult to say that something that basically does the opposite is something of equal merit without pretending he's blind. Of course, I do play the hard right side of the fence, so maybe I'm standing by myself. But if it's just Death as part of the cycle, they could probably turn down the baby eating aspect.

Lin

It might be your perspective. With my character having had most of her exposure to Azudim take place in Duiran, I don't get the doom-and-gloom vibe at all. Mainly they seem indistinguishable from most other people, but have a slightly morbid and/or fatalistic view on life.

Xavin

I dunno, I feel like they lost a lot of that when the shift to current-style endgame races happened. They lost a lot of what made them so...I dunno...evil, I guess? Or destructive. Now they're just, well, a flavor of divine essence.

Edit: Maybe we should move it to another thread? This is a sort of interesting topic to me.

Eleanor

The way I've seen it spun is that nowadays Yeleni are individuals who create, whose point is to build and grow, for better or for worse (hence darkside yeleni- they might not be building anything nice) and Azudim are individuals whose point is to tear down and destroy, again for positive or negative benefit (hence lightside azudim, natural destruction and entropy etc). And Idreth is 'bugger your gods, I'm Doctor Manhattan', which leaves them fence-sitting and- in my opinion- in a unique position to be side-eyed warily by all the gods. I -like- this and I wish more people would actually play up on the whole "my very existence is a big flip-off to deities in their traditional roles" instead of "Idreth lets me describe myself however I want".

Xavin

That's one thing I don't get. All these people who are in orgs that have some sort of divine backing going Idreth and claiming to be all for the backing of those gods. Isn't the point of Idreth to throw off the quote-unquote reliance of mortals on the divine?

Saybre

However, unlike their ascended brethen, the inhuman abilities of the Idreth stem from mastery of their own body; they have no need for Divine essence, for they have access to their own vast reserves.
                                                    ^(Hah, typo)

This alone (from HELP IDRETH) just states that the being has ascended of their own volition. Not necessarily that they're -opposed- to the Divine. Saying that because Saybre is Idreth, he shouldn't be an Auresian, or vice versa is just..silly. His change to Idreth was very specific, and it affected him immensely. I see Idreth as almost a lesser version of Rahn's ascension, except instead of 'perfection' it's a culmination of willpower, the mind and body became so connected that the Tekal (or whatever they are. I went Azudim->Idreth) found the power to change into a higher being. That's one of the neat things about Idreth, is that it is divine essence exclusive, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that person is anti-Divine.

Honestly, I kind of see Idreth has just the level-up from Tekal, but not hollow..if you understand my line of thought.

Daingean

Idreth in polarized orgs is a matter of annoyance for me, but that's because I obviously have issue seeing the races independently of their imagery.

The idea that a mortal is somehow better or at least -as- powerful as the essence taken in upon ascension to either other option is a total matter of thumbing your nose at that perceived power, and saying, 'Anything They can do, I can do better/too.'

I actually hate the concept of the race in a game that's supposed to be one side against the other, but I mean, obviously, enough people disagree that it was created.

Edit - that is to say, regardless of your actual personality, it should sort of be a given that you your respective side to triumph, and that should mean that at least half the pantheon is on your side.

Xavin

That's all well and good, but wasn't there some bit about them being very similar in nature to the Dreikathi who, presumably, slew their own gods?

I think that would give our gods enough justification to be wary of Idreth,though I don't think it is enough for them to turn followers away.

Arbre

Not long after I came to Duiran and joined Auresae's order, Arb asked Aure if her being Azudim bothered Her.  Aure said something along the lines of Arb being the wildfire that destroyed so that new could be built, and that Azudim is what was appropriate for her.  I don't think I have a log of that particular conversation.

Alexina

Okay. I'm just going to make a small contribution to this thread:

If the administration ever decides to add more races to the game (endgame or otherwise), or just to alter the lore of our current ones, would you please invite the playerbase into the process? There are a ton of good ideas floating around. Personally, I always thought it is weird there are so many different races in the game but so few that are actually playable characters.

Alistaire

Xavin said:

Undead Only  (presumably Lich) - Azudim - Idreth - Yeleni - Living Only (this one would be weird. Something related to the Dumavi, the Spirit Plane or, and this is a stretch, Dendara)

This is a neat idea, with a few issues. If Undead endgame is really just boring old Lich, that will be kind of disappointing, imo.

Beyond that, a "Living only" race wouldn't bar a lot of the evil people from taking it on. Something related to the Duamvi (which would be an awesome endgame ascension!) Spirit or even Dendara has little/no place in Spinesreach, but you're all just as aware of the fact that someone from there would go out of their way to be it, just to be a bastard.

Seir

I've always been Azudim with Seir whilst being a lifer. I've maybe gotten odd stares about it twice, but I agree with Lin on her above comment. Most lifer Azudim just have an incredibly morbid view of life or are pretty fatalistic about life and death.

I can't really ever see some characters in Duiran ever going Yeleni even though there is a greater population of them. Azudim just meshes with their characters too well.

Damonicus

I still think just end game versions of our races would be fine: An Atavian Lord of the 1st Circle or whatever.  That way you do not need to instill an essence or use your ultimate willpower and explode into something else. Also make Tekal an option. I am sure you can think of names for miasma and the other abilities for each race.

Haven

When I first saw this thread was created by Iosyne I thought some new content was released and got really excited.

Nola

I don't really view Azudim as the Emos of Aetolia, imo.

Thats just how its coming off sounding. I don't see an endgame race affecting the person's personality or outlook, only allowing them to embody something other than simple mortality, physically.

Haern

Xavin said:

That's all well and good, but wasn't there some bit about them being very similar in nature to the Dreikathi who, presumably, slew their own gods?

I think that would give our gods enough justification to be wary of Idreth,though I don't think it is enough for them to turn followers away.

Eleanor largely hit the nail on the head. Not all Idreth are fiercely against the gods as we've seen from our players, but the path they've chosen is oddly reminiscent of the Dreikathi and Ankyreans' own.

Azrael

This entire thread made me chuckle. As a returning player, end game races these days are largely a joke. I quit playing just shortly after Azudim and Yeleni came out. I still remember the first people to get both...back them they had a true purpose, each being polar opposites of the other. No longer the case, now you have Spinesreach overrun with the prolife race while Enorian and Duiran have become quite the Azudim stomping ground. Way back when you would never see an Azudim running around Enorian or a Yeleni running around Bloodloch. I do give BL cheers for maintaining that part of their laws though and keeping Yeleni out regardless of their affiliation. In this instance, this is something that I simply feel the player-base ruined over the course of the years.

Angwe

The real difference between azu/yele has always escaped me and left me dreading reaching endgame as I search for thematic cues.

Edhain

Azrael, I think a lot of that happened due to lifers wanting the "badass" vibe of Azudim - whereas Yeleni by comparison might seem like sissies. I accepted a lot of it because it didn't make much logical sense not to, in game. But in retrospect, I kind of wish I hadn't for the purely OOC reason of maintaining a contrast between Life and Undead endgame characters. 

Regardless, I do think the whole issue could be fixed by adding more races.

Daingean

Azrael said:

This entire thread made me chuckle. As a returning player, end game races these days are largely a joke. I quit playing just shortly after Azudim and Yeleni came out. I still remember the first people to get both...back them they had a true purpose, each being polar opposites of the other. No longer the case, now you have Spinesreach overrun with the prolife race while Enorian and Duiran have become quite the Azudim stomping ground. Way back when you would never see an Azudim running around Enorian or a Yeleni running around Bloodloch. I do give BL cheers for maintaining that part of their laws though and keeping Yeleni out regardless of their affiliation. In this instance, this is something that I simply feel the player-base ruined over the course of the years.

This, basically. The hipsters overran the regular folk, and it ruined everything.

Azrael

Yeah, there's been a huge cultural adjustment that I've had to make since returning. The entire Azudim and Yeleni thing has only been a part of it. When I left azudim was like the ultimate embodiment of undeath - at least that's how the playerbase at the time felt and Yeleni were the lets save every soul scum. (This speaking from a "shadow" perspective of course. lol) I've actually caught quite a bit of flack because Az refuses to associate with any Yeleni, even if said individual is in a shadow guild. Basically can look at it as "it's just the way Az was raised".

New races could help, so long as they came with an appropriate back story and they were somehow mechanically patrolled. Else you're going to find people who want pro-life vampires, whether that be Yeleni or another pro-life race.

Daingean

@Azrael We should be rivals that have a bitter hatred for one another, despite their obvious similarities.

I -like- polarization. I will stand against anything that muddies the  waters - even if it's something generally pointless, like endgame race.

It's all very tip-of-the-iceberg, to me.

Xavin

The thing is that Azudim and Yeleni are -not- about undeath and life anymore. And remember, the change in what the mechanics and flavor are happened -before- Azudim started popping up in Enorian and Duiran.

Daingean

I know they're not. The ship has sailed, there's a metric ton of mud on any of that lore.

Except, there's nothing proper to replace it or clarify it.

Arbre

We had endgame race lore to begin with?

Seir

Too much polarity is a bad thing.

Creativity and expanding on what your character should truly be shouldn't be considered hipster.

I, for one, could never imagine Seir being Yeleni. It just doesn't fit him at all.

Xavin

The lore is that Yeleni and Azudim are just reflective of the cycle. One represents life and creation. One represents death and destruction. That's it in a nutshell.

The lore doesn't have to be this deep, compelling stuff. The simple stuff that gives lots of room for interpretation is the best because it promotes creativity.