Combat

Auresae

Due to polite request to have this conversation, I am opening up this thread. Be warned that I will be monitoring it closely and start marking those who are abusive in it. Be productive.

Areka

Essence:
Combat and conflict become horrid free-for-alls of pwning sides and inability to build engaging interactions due to this.

While some things we won't always be able to address - can't speak for everyone or control them - I do think that we as a playerbase, especially those parties participating in things, can at least help situations if we communicated better, even if only OOCly.

I have the Leadership Liaison clan that could be used as a tool for this - today's Carnifex Extravaganza as an example. A few notes of OOC: "Hey, let's keep this for noobs, who you got that you can bring in?" would go a long way to making sure everyone's on the same page and allow us to better balance within ourselves so that everyone gets something from it.

Moirean

Quite frankly, I don't even know. I get the distinct feeling that admin don't support us promoting our own conflict. Posts are snipped and ideas are shot down as too controversial.

Areka

Well, why don't we try to make use of the LLead clan a bit more?

For those who don't know, I repurposed one of the (bajillion) Templar clans into being a Leadership Liaison, where org leadership (both elected and those they bring in to help) can OOCly hash out ideas, get feed back, post some resources to help us work on the game, and so on.

We could make a project and have a schedule of small events or proposals between orgs and troubleshoot and give others an eye on what's not involving their org so they can give space.

This won't solve all issues, and won't necessarily fix this, but it's at least something we can begin doing to improve our end of things.

Aarbrok

Maybe to keep it some modicum of level/ability based, you could have like a level of severity to be announced OOCly of the conflict....but not necessarily hey lets have conflict. For Example:

Moirean shouts, "Dwarves of Tainhelm, you shall taste our steel whilst we reap your souls, Raaaaaghthrheeh!

Leadership Liaison: Low Level

Enorian Leadership: "Able bodied Squires and ...uh...other little fire thingies, babbymages, Assemble!

Moirean

Definitely down with that. As I said - before my posts got censored out - the Carnifex have no fighters. Our class is very bad, and so Toz and I are really the only active PKers in the guild, but the guild's outlook is a very militant one, so we really should be picking fights a lot.

We can't back it up and we're going to lose - but give us a damn chance. That's really want I want, just a chance for my newbs to hit a macro or two before they get killed. If we go bug Tainhelm, send the Templars out - Templars vs Carnis is a fair (lopsided) fight. Don't send all of Eno and Duiran.

Haven

OOC appointments seem like the way to go. Probably a good idea to outline clear win conditions too or at the very least a "safe word" to indicate when it's over.

Aarbrok

RP-PK can be a thing, if we all work together and make it happen, it is easy enough to put it aside if we generally can admit we are okay with losing once in a while as much as winning.

Areka

Just for what happened earlier - Renarin and I were the only Templar online.

I think the system you proposed is a good one, Aarby. I'll see about getting all council members in the clan, if they're inclined, and ministers that are interested, just so that there are more ears to catch things.

Stathan

As a whole the idea has merit, my only thing is this. If people in these events get used to winning for reasons of their guild RP or whatever and start getting cocky, not realizing it's an organized event.

Haven

Stathan said:

As a whole the idea has merit, my only thing is this. If people in these events get used to winning for reasons of their guild RP or whatever and start getting cocky, not realizing it's an organized event.

Ehh... Why would that be a problem? I'd personally find it to be a breath of fresh air to see organizational conflict that wasn't city vs city. And if people do get cocky, it's perfectly valid story-wise.

Stathan

My issue with the cockyness is someone thinking that because they won an RP engagement with X organization, that they can throw their weight around with Y organization and think they'll just walk around and get to act like they own the place. I can see that resulting in a typical PK reaction with the wrong person. Which will devolve into a flame war and general pk cluster hump.

Aishia

I mean the whole reason fights are one sided is no one likes to lose when they have the ability to win. And no one likes to be excluded just because they're too good or would tip some scale.

Haven

Stathan said:

My issue with the cockyness is someone thinking that because they won an RP engagement with X organization, that they can throw their weight around with Y organization and think they'll just walk around and get to act like they own the place. I can see that resulting in a typical PK reaction with the wrong person. Which will devolve into a flame war and general pk cluster hump.

I'm not sure why that'd be a problem. o.o RPing an org/person who isn't humble or smug or whatever is perfectly valid. Wait, do you mean you're worried that it'll escalate into larger conflicts because of their attitude? If so... I mean if that's where the story takes it then that's where it takes it. It'd be 1 arc. I am curious though how we'd police people that interfere and or break the conflict guidelines? Will we finally have same-side conflicts?!

Areka

I think the cockiness issue becomes truly problematic when we have as happened with the exterminations - it becomes a human centipede of tit for tat and doesn't just end with one arc. Though that habit with the playerbase is something we need to address in general.

Policing is a difficult thing. We can provide more opportunities or rewards to people who play nice and cooperate and reprimand those who are problematic. In turn, if it really becomes an issue, we can create more mechanical censures (in the sense of dis-including from clans and conversation, isolation, I'd say remove from org credit sales though that's crossing a different kind of meta line that is kind of tricky). I do not have a good answer for that right now, and will need to think on it.

Riluo

We use to do this years ago by sending our thralls to an area and asking the old carebear guild to do the same, then let them at it, So it can work, but it needs to be pre-organised if it is to be fun for them.

Moirean

Well. Part of what sustains a single conflict event is the reward - being able to toss out credits as a prize is great. If we're being really analytical about all this, most guilds can't give out prizes on a regular basis. I personally am starting to really think it's a bad aspect of Aetolia - having to churn out activity for credits is super tiring and pretty cray cray. I wish Aetolia would give a base value for every org - these are the credits you, as an org lead, are being given to DO COOL THINGS FOR YOUR ORG. Let us work from that baseline, instead of trying to pretend that not having Daskalos/Rashar is totally cool and ignorable and our org can totes manage without credit intake at that level. When 1-2 players can skew the balance that dramatically, it really does have an impact on IG activity.

Rashar

Ok, ok. You talked me into it, I'm going to join SR so that way you guys get the credits to do fun things.

Haven

@Moirean: Aren't guild credits optional perks though? While getting credits is nice, I don't think it is necessary for guild activity at all.

Moirean

I've noticed a huge difference in activity when credit prizes are on the table. I mean. Duh. If you don't think credit rewards are vital to an org, you are orgless or ignoring how orgs work. I mean, I totally understand the concept - more activity = more credits = more win for everyone! - but I think it's a really really unfair one when you have guilds that are languishing around with bad classes. In situations like that, you are basically forcing leaders into pushing out activity to ensure the same credit upkeep other guilds get just from being functional.

Moirean

Rashar said:

Ok, ok. You talked me into it, I'm going to join SR so that way you guys get the credits to do fun things.

So many things, so many explosions, you will never regret it, comrade-

Aarbrok

I usually refund my credits personally for favours, as do others in Spinesreach. I would not mind though seeing alot more interactions, and comraderie from an OOC aspect amongst enemies ICly, lets hope we can make this fun.

Rashar

I never accept guild or city credits, nor do I take advantage of guild or city credit sales. Daskalos snuck some at us the other day and I just made a little find the pigeon event and gave them all to the person who won.

That being said, I think credits to make people happy, and using them makes people happy too. I personally wish people did stuff just for the sake of doing stuff, but that isn't how the world works.

Daskalos

Of note... I'm not opposed to small scale combat *however* to keep it small scale I would recommend avoiding PK hot button issues -- extermination, protected areas of any org, et cetera. It will help keep things controlled, because otherwise, you're going to have people who go 'hey, my young just got rolled but now they're doing XYZ and it's fundamentally against what I do'.

I think that's why things like exterminations, attacks on Jaru, et al, create such an issue. No one protects, for instance, Arurer Haven but I'd sure enough send my Luminaries to protect them if you wanted to do a Carnifex v Lumy thing for instance (assuming I had the people).

Haven

Moirean said:

I've noticed a huge difference in activity when credit prizes are on the table. I mean. Duh. If you don't think credit rewards are vital to an org, you are orgless or ignoring how orgs work. I mean, I totally understand the concept - more activity = more credits = more win for everyone! - but I think it's a really really unfair one when you have guilds that are languishing around with bad classes. In situations like that, you are basically forcing leaders into pushing out activity to ensure the same credit upkeep other guilds get just from being functional.

You're making them more than they are. Credits are awesome perks, don't get me wrong, but the fact remains that they are still optional. If the admin removed guild credits today, you won't see organizations suddenly collapse and grow dormant because of it.

Aarbrok

Perhaps communicating with the leadership clan as a whole, areas of interest that would be suitable conflict areas without turning into larger scale conflict would be a good start point. Im not really sure what areas would be considered protected areas and not outside of Enorian and Bloodloch allied villages.

Rashar

Do you really think the strength of the class is a bigger factor than RP is for activity? There's a reason you keep people in Carni, and that's because you guys RP cool shit. I wish we had that where I'm at, to be honest. I'm not complaining about Luminaries, because it is what it is and I'm a shit ass Luminary anyway, ICly (put that in there for your imminent complaint, @daskalos :P), but yeah.

The people that truly care about whether or not the class is PK viable are the ones who tend to PK seriously, and those people usually know enough to pick the class that they -want- to PK with. That second class is free, you know?

Haven

Rashar said:

Do you really think the strength of the class is a bigger factor than RP is for activity? There's a reason you keep people in Carni, and that's because you guys RP cool shit. I wish we had that where I'm at, to be honest. I'm not complaining about Luminaries, because it is what it is and I'm a shit ass Luminary anyway, ICly (put that in there for your imminent complaint, @daskalos :P), but yeah. The people that truly care about whether or not the class is PK viable are the ones who tend to PK seriously, and those people usually know enough to pick the class that they -want- to PK with. That second class is free, you know?

I don't think class strength is the bigger factor but I do believe that it plays a significant enough role regardless of whether or not you're a hardcore RPer or PKer. Guild activity will drop if the class is gimped. Maybe not as much as it used to with the advent of multiclass but it drops noticeably. A huge chunk I'd not the majority of players are in between the two extremes, so if your class sucks even if the concept and environment is rich, the guild will suffer for it.

Toz

Yeah even with multiclass, our numbers took a massive hit. We lost some old guard PKers, for instance - and we consistently bleed novices who go 'oh your class is bad and I can only afford one, so I'll go elsewhere'. Granted, it worked out SUPER WELL that last time, since we got rid of 'em easy, but still.

Moirean

Bad classes also hit guild credit levels. If the class is bad for PK, people aren't going to be investing as much money into it and associated artis.

Stathan

Thinking that if we could get a few trial runs set up, even with some of the end game people just lingering at the wings to make sure neither side gets to involved it should be fun. And by that, I mean that someone doesn't log in, see their guild getting eaten alive, or fighting in general, and jumping into it. That might be the big issue we'd have to get around is people on either side not knowing whats going on. Especially if they took a break for any period of time and missed the announcement for the "play date".