What do you think about AAVE-- African American Vernacular English, being used by white people?

Toz

Samp said:

The other thing that's kind of blowing my mind, is that I never said I was offended or upset.

Samp said:

Are you black? If not, I gotta say that's a super racist thing to say and do. And if you're white, then I am even more grossed out by this. White people making jokes about slavery?? Grosssss and also a terribly unoriginal and unfunny joke.

You called me gross. Which is why, at least I personally, am assigning several emotions to you and your argument. Had you said you disagreed on intellectual grounds, I'd have argued with you differently.

Mephistoles

@Samp As @Haven said "People don't own words". You're giving racial separatist (or at least segregationist) arguments on the basis of being un-offensive. And you never really answered why these arguments are sound when you use them, but they're not sound when used by people supporting Jim Crow laws or segregationist or separatist policies.

Samp said:

I agree it's gross to be offended or upset on behalf of someone else, and I work not to do that.

Samp said:

I'll call it out and then permanently remove myself from that situation.

Are you really not being offended for other people? Because it very much sounds like you're being offended for other people if that's your response to these situations.

Aarbrok

One word.... BEEFMEADOW

Damariel

A general warning for everyone to keep cool about this. I don't want to have to close the thread.

Moirean said:

This thread is getting ugly fast. I think both sides are using hyperbole to bad effect, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable to read. Cultural appropriation is a rather volatile topic, and there are certainly negative examples of it being used in pop culture, such as when we see singers like Miley Cyrus or Katie Perry use an entire sub-culture or race as a theme or prop in a music video. I suspect this is what Samp thought was going on with the mob dialogue, and it is a somewhat odd and interesting concept to consider - in a fantasy world where races and cultures exist outside of the real-world origins, what kind of connotations are carried over if things are used (such as certain dialects, facial features, iconography, etc) which originate from specific sub-cultures?

I'm very curious about the conversation you were having beforehand; would you mind going into more detail about it?

Faerah

Samp said:

And if you're white, then I am even more grossed out by this. White people making jokes about slavery?? Grosssss and also a terribly unoriginal and unfunny joke.

I don't know what you were trying to express here other than offense. Sorry if I'm 'projecting,' but I find your arguments shallow, unoriginal, boring and wrong. There are a great many sincere issues that each different minority community faces in this country and nothing you have touched on even matters in the face of any of them. It's all superficial... Semantics... Garbage.

Let's talk about minority issues. Let's talk about California prisons coercing minority women into getting sterilized. Let's talk about extreme poverty and the school to prison pipeline. Let's talk about gang violence and the "war on drugs." What about Immigration? Human trafficking? Seriously, let's talk about actual issues if you care so much about minorities.

Aarbrok

*drops mic*

You forgot that Faerah....

Samp

It's not white separatist. White people using mock ebonics and AAVE is a thing that's been going on for hundreds of years. I'm saying there are inappropriate uses of it, and I'd say 99.9% of the times I hear white people using AAVE it's inappropriate. If this is a culture someone was raised into, having a black parent, living in the rural south, etc. then this is obviously entirely different. But when it's something someone picks up and puts down with as much ease, then I don't think that's appropriate. Dialect isn't a toy. I think if the world wasn't as judgmental against AAVE and black dialects (things like how black people are less likely to be hired if their names don't sound white or they don't speak in the right aka "white" ways during an interview) then non-black people using this casually would be an entirely different context. Since some people are punished systematically for it, I don't think it's funny or cute for non-black people to use it. KKK and white nationalists and segregationists obviously don't have these viewpoints. I'm not here for white purification or perfection.

tl;dr many black people are met with racism constantly for their use of AAVE and other dialects, that's why I think it's a real and serious issue when people use it for fun.

Moirean

Damariel said:

A general warning for everyone to keep cool about this. I don't want to have to close the thread.

Moirean said:

This thread is getting ugly fast. I think both sides are using hyperbole to bad effect, and it makes me a bit uncomfortable to read. Cultural appropriation is a rather volatile topic, and there are certainly negative examples of it being used in pop culture, such as when we see singers like Miley Cyrus or Katie Perry use an entire sub-culture or race as a theme or prop in a music video. I suspect this is what Samp thought was going on with the mob dialogue, and it is a somewhat odd and interesting concept to consider - in a fantasy world where races and cultures exist outside of the real-world origins, what kind of connotations are carried over if things are used (such as certain dialects, facial features, iconography, etc) which originate from specific sub-cultures?

I'm very curious about the conversation you were having beforehand; would you mind going into more detail about it?

I wasn't really involved in the conversation. I was making dinner and doing the whole "keep the group entertained" emote thing, but here's what I have in my backlog:

Kelliara says, "Ashayth is finally settling someplace?"

You have emoted: Moirean gives Kelliara an excited, happy nod.

"Isn't that the teacher lady?" "I reckon it is." "I thought she were already a citizen..." "Nah, sort of a... consulting, type... deal."

The farmers' conversation continues, in the background. "Consulting? I thought that was for like... mages, and whatnot." "Damn, son, are you ign'ant."

(Spirean Hunters): You say, "Lol the farmers."
(Spirean Hunters): Orfeo says, "Just me or is damn son and ign'ant questionable??"
(Spirean Hunters): You say, "Questionable?"
(Spirean Hunters): Orfeo says, "Like is it not obviously trying to imitate AAVE?"
(Spirean Hunters): You say, "Dunno what that is."
(Spirean Hunters): Eleanor says, "Imitate wqhat?"
(Spirean Hunters): Eleanor says, "Oh look a rogue q shoot it."
(Spirean Hunters): Aren says, "Whats aave?"
(Spirean Hunters): Orfeo says, "AAVE- African American Vernacular English. Basically, just me or was that obviously trying to sound like a RL black american stereotype?"
(Spirean Hunters): Eleanor says, "I think you're projecting."
(Spirean Hunters): Aren says, "Lol what."
(Spirean Hunters): Senwick says, "Much like Aaight."
(Spirean Hunters): Ingram says, "Man, talkin' like a brotha is whack, maaaang."
(Spirean Hunters): Ingram says, "Stoppat nasteness."
(Spirean Hunters): Argolis says, "Sounds more like a severe country drawl to me."
(Spirean Hunters): Ishin says, "Lol."
(Spirean Hunters): Orfeo says, "*so shocked*."
(Spirean Hunters): Senwick says, "Aaight Homie can a brutha get a drink up in this biznitch?"
(Spirean Hunters): Orfeo says, "Holy shit."
(Spirean Hunters): Eleanor says, "Quick, does anyone speak jive?"
(Spirean Hunters): Ingram says, "Now I want to watch Airplane!"
(Spirean Hunters): Ishin says, "Too far."
(Spirean Hunters): Argolis says, "Surely you must be joking."
(Spirean Hunters): Aren says, "O' sheet. Betta be watchin out now. Dun get nun dat crunk shit."
(Spirean Hunters): Eleanor says, "I'm serious, and don't call me shirley."
(Spirean Hunters): Argolis says, "Badum tish."

Ishin

I'm not really sure how that qualifies as AAVE. That sounds more like someone talking from someone around mine and Toz's neck of the woods than AAVE.

Mephistoles

Samp said:

It's not white separatist. White people using mock ebonics and AAVE is a thing that's been going on for hundreds of years. I'm saying there are inappropriate uses of it, and I'd say 99.9% of the times I hear white people using AAVE it's inappropriate. If this is a culture someone was raised into, having a black parent, living in the rural south, etc. then this is obviously entirely different. But when it's something someone picks up and puts down with as much ease, then I don't think that's appropriate. Dialect isn't a toy. I think if the world wasn't as judgmental against AAVE and black dialects (things like how black people are less likely to be hired if their names don't sound white or they don't speak in the right aka "white" ways during an interview) then non-black people using this casually would be an entirely different context. Since some people are punished systematically for it, I don't think it's funny or cute for non-black people to use it. KKK and white nationalists and segregationists obviously don't have these viewpoints. I'm not here for white purification or perfection.

tl;dr many black people are met with racism constantly for their use of AAVE and other dialects, that's why I think it's a real and serious issue when people use it for fun.

You are definitely being offended for other people. Your argument essentially amounts to an argument about "cultural purity" even if it doesn't involve "racial purity". "If you don't have any black blood, you can't use black words". You're still using that argument. "Black words are for black people. It's not appropriate for white people to use them." You are a segregationist.

Edit: Even if you don't mean to be.

Samp

I wasn't super set off about the farmers, that's why I tried to bring up a conversation on shunt. I wanted everyone else's opinions, but Ingram immediately launched into very obvious mock ebonics and that's what led me to quitting the clan. I asked if anyone thought it "questionable" first. I don't want to be credited with blowing this out of proportion when that's how everyone responded without hesitation and then followed it up with a forum thread.

edit: @Moirean this post is a perf example of using hyperbole in a bad way XD Fixed it.

Samp

-

Mephistoles

Samp said:

@Ishin I'm open to that, and that's why I wanted the chat.

@MephistolesI'm saying there are inappropriate uses of it, and I'd say 99.9% of the times I hear white people using AAVE it's inappropriate. If this is a culture someone was raised into, having a black parent, living in the rural south, etc. then this is obviously entirely different.Being black was one thing I said. I also said it wasn't exclusively inappropriate, just that I found most of the times its use to be bad.

Yes. You have an argument for cultural/racial purity. Can't use it unless you're black or were raised in a black culture.

Damariel

@Moirean‌, @Samp‌ - With regards to the farmers: Spinesreach's farmers have typically reflected a redneck/backwoods aesthetic and the accent was written in keeping with that. I understand how it could have been misinterpreted, as Southern dialects and AAVE overlap in many regards. If anything, the Orcs and Ogres, particularly the lower-class, ill-educated ones with their broken English and atypical verb conjugations, are far closer to drawing from that particular dialect - but that's a separate conversation entirely.

Elaborating on what I wrote before: I think context, the people you're around, and the audience you're addressing play a huge role in whether using the dialect of a group of which you are not a part is appropriate or inappropriate. Intent can also make a difference; trivialization or mockery are definitely not cool. I agree that cultural appropriation presents a huge problem, but it's also important not to treat any given group as a monolith that all shares one opinion on something.

By example - I'm queer. I'm not straight. Not all people who are LGBTQ are comfortable with the word 'queer', but some are. I wouldn't want people to stop using the word, although I acknowledge it has history as a slur and needed to be reclaimed; I'd just prefer they don't use it to describe people who are uncomfortable with the designation. If they're talking about me, I don't care. Similarly, I don't think it's right to unilaterally declare a given dialect or its features completely off-limits; but people outside the culture of origin should be aware that being respectful and conscientious of the cultural meaning is important.

Samp

I was super ready for a conversation that ended with the farmers' being appropriate and am not bothered by it. Instead of even having that conversation, it became this thread which has 0% to do with it until @Moirean posted the log and @Damariel threw in his pennies.

Samp

@Mephistoles southern culture != black culture, so you're stretching it. I agree with what @Damariel said about overlaps in dialects, and have also said I don't think every use of AAVE is inappropriate.

Mephistoles

Mephistoles said:

Yes. You have an argument for cultural/racial purity. Can't use it unless you're black or were raised in a black culture.

Samp said:

@Mephistoles southern culture != black culture, so you're stretching it. I agree with what @Damariel said about overlaps in dialects, and have also said I don't think every use of AAVE is inappropriate.

Nice try buddy. I didn't ever mention southern culture. Your arguments are racially/culturally segregationist. But I know you at least mean well.

Ingram

This is... not what I had in mind when I made this thread!

I intended the thread to be a mature discussion on the topic which came to mind as a result of, and not in direct reaction to, the shunt chatter.

This is a surprise, to say the least!

Auresae

I thought accents and speech patterns had to do with where you grew up and not the color of your skin.

Irruel

They do - except that the two are sometimes one and the same.

Also confusing that general idea is something Damariel mentioned: reclaiming a word, phrase or entire dialect. One reason people keep talking with a broad accent is to affirm their pride in their origins.

Samp

@Mephistoles Not super into being called buddy because of it's gendered connotations. Anyways, I listed southern cultures as an example of why non-black people would be using these words, like these farmers as an example. You then followed it by saying I was being a racial purist even when I've agreed that AAVE/southern dialects have shared origins. It was your lack of acknowledgement that I pointed out.

@Auresae If that were true, then we wouldn't have terms like ebonics and AAVE- things black people have coined and described. Black, American cultures have partially evolved in very segregated ways. Because black people have been legally forced to live in certain areas it follows that there are cultural affectations related to skin color.

Mephistoles

Buddy is gender neutral. Like friend. Pal. I can't tell if you're farming outrage or you're really being serious at this point.

Edit: Your arguments are still segregationist. They're the same arguments. You haven't addressed why they're sound when you use them but not when segregationists use them. I assume it's actually because you can't come up for a reason for why they're good arguments.

Samp

I'm just saying my preferences. It doesn't have to be a big deal, I just don't want to be called buddy anymore. Since it obviously wasn't known beforehand, now we all know and it can be avoided in the future. If I call you something you don't want to be called, then you could choose to let me know that I fucked up, and I would avoid it in the future.

edit: Segregationists don't use these arguments. Segregationists don't think certain people should avoid AAVE in certain contexts because it's rude and offensive. That's NOT a tenet of white supremacy. Plenty of racist people love to use AAVE and black affectations, plenty of racist people think white people shouldn't do that. I advocate that non-black people should be very, very, very careful in their use of AAVE because it's not code switching, it's something that is being intentionally picked up for fun. So long as black people are oppressed for their use of AAVE, then non-black people using it without receiving any of the racially-based penalties strikes me as inappropriate.

Mephistoles

@Samp You have different motivations for the same arguments, dude. You haven't addressed the arguments themselves. You've just addressed you motivations for having them.

Faerah

Samp said:

tl;dr many black people are met with racism constantly for their use of AAVE and other dialects, that's why I think it's a real and serious issue when people use it for fun.

Again, if you care about so much about the plight of minorities, lets talk about the real issues that keep them down. In fact, I'll start us off.

Toz

Samp said:

If I call you something you don't want to be called, then you could choose to let me know that I unicornsed up, and I would avoid it in the future.

I (still) don't like being called gross.

Samp said:

edit: Segregationists don't use these arguments.

I'm impressed that you've interviewed every segregationist ever to determine this.
By definition, segregation is (to quote Wikipedia), "separation of humans into racial groups in daily life".
Your statement that me using race/slavery jokes was 'gross' because I was white is an (admittedly small) example of segregation. As it is an example of segregation if "black" people can use AAVE freely, even if joking/poking fun at it, but "white" people are not permitted to do so.

Samp said:

Segregationists don't think certain people should avoid AAVE in certain contexts because it's rude and offensive. That's NOT a tenet of white supremacy.

White supremacy is very much 'us vs them' thinking. The belief tends to be that there should not be ANY mixing between the cultures, save for a subservient one - 'those blacks are taking all our jobs', 'those Mexicans are lazy' are examples of typical white supremacist beliefs; 'black people shouldn't hold jobs white people want' is another. Take 'blacks should not date whites'. To generalize it, 'x should not act'. Where x = race, that's a discriminatory statement. And segregationist thinking.

Samp said:

Plenty of racist people love to use AAVE and black affectations, plenty of racist people think white people shouldn't do that.

Racist, sure. But they're likely not using it earnestly, but in a mocking sense. If you take a southern accent and use it mockingly, that's probably offensive too. If you take a southern accent and pretend to have one to pick up chicks, or because you like how it sounds, or because you're just feeling your grits that day, I'm probably going to laugh. But it's also not really offensive.

Samp said:

I advocate that non-black people should be very, very, very careful in their use of AAVE because it's not code switching, it's something that is being intentionally picked up for fun.

Bolded discriminatory remark.

Samp said:

So long as black people are oppressed for their use of AAVE, then non-black people using it without receiving any of the racially-based penalties strikes me as inappropriate.

People in some countries used to be punished for shaving their beard. I'm still going to shave mine. Just because some people are oppressed somewhere does not mean I'm forever banned from the act. There is a difference between socially conscious, and overreacting. I feel that you are leaning heavily towards the latter. Is it bad that they are judged a certain way for how they speak? Yes. Does them being treated poorly by people mean that I am obligated to not speak a certain way? No.


EDIT: Forums ate my < and my > so I had to fix something.

Teani

Auresae said:

I thought accents and speech patterns had to do with where you grew up and not the color of your skin.

Having studied linguistics and speech patterns, I have to repeat this. The perfect example is what is referred to as NORM (Non-mobile Older Rural Male). It shows that people who remain in the same rural area for most their lives will keep to a specific speech pattern more easily than others. If someone were to move to an area where everyone has lived for a long time and remains there (begins learning the language from them) it's only natural that said people will pick up on those speech patterns. It has -nothing- to do with race, but with culture.

In general, I would like to say that if you get offended by a certain use of words (or a certain behavior) it's easier to avoid things getting blown out of proportion by speaking up about it. From what I can see of the log, people were joking about something in a way that made @Samp uncomfortable enough to quit the clan. It might have been better to perhaps say:

"Hey, could you please simmer down and not talk like that because I find it offensive. I have my reasons and don't really want a discussion. Just asking you to please respect my wishes."

Samp

Re: NORM, but because of segregation and redlining, even if something only evolves because of an area, that area is still often directly related to race.

Also about how I could've handled it, I think you're 100% right, but I chose not to say anything on Shunt because I knew that the conversation happening on this forum would happen there. For some reason when this thread was started all that flew out my head and I decided to wade on in.

@Faerah I've administered interviews where black people were turned down because the employer didn't like how they spoke. Black people who's names don't sound "white" are also statistically less likely to get call backs about jobs, and if they do get a job placement are more likely to be underemployed. It's not a non-issue. Things like this impact the job and wage gap in very visible ways.

Auresae

@Teani‌ Thanks for explaining things with better words than I have.

Teani

@Samp: I have to correct you there. Areas are not directly related to race. They are directly related to communities. Some communities conform to just one race, yes, but most don't. You can't generalize the development of speech patterns only on communities of a specific kind. Language is everywhere and you can't claim that any specific group has more right to speak in a certain way than anyone else. If that were the case, I'd be in deep trouble seeing as my native tongue is Swedish and I speak American English.