In which there is a brawl

Oleis

This discussion was created from comments split from: Mudlet System For Sale: Tripwire.

Daskalos

Aetolia also has a lower population than Achaea. Honestly, this is precisely the reason I never sold my system(s) back in the day. I'd give them out, but never would I just sell them because I didn't want to leave people hanging and even when I gave the system to people, I stressed it was 'as is', and you would get updates if I felt like it. However, people -always always always- would ASK for my system. They'd offer to buy it. I had a person offer me $300 for my cMUD system once, which I turned down. However, you're buying the system as is. These people aren't businesses, and you get what you got. I assume Tripwire is fairly modular.

Citadel, which I ended support for because I never received one penny or credit for and had people making demands of me, is fairly modular. You can literally edit almost anything client side (cure lists, afflictions, even introduce your own lua triggers into it). I branched the system off into Fortress, which I still don't charge for, or sell. I support most of the former Citadel users, save the ones who made demands or were an ass to me (sorry, you dug your own hole) but there are still many shadow-side users. The user list is about 85 names long, however, these things take time. I spend probably a few hours each week of my own time tweaking the system, usually after I fight.

Yes, you paid for the system, but surely it's fairly customizable from the client side? I know @Ezalor‌ pretty much does a ton of tweaks via client side handling and doesn't really do much outside of what he does in cmud, and is still, I think, using the Citadel core.

Moirean

Eh, forget it, off topic.

Daskalos

@Daskalos: If you have the only access to the source code, people are going to make demands, as they are stuck relying on you to fix things. I'm sorry you think that people (I assume me) made demands, but when we can't edit our own system, the person who holds that code ends up as the new proxy owner. You even said that Lanira hooked you up with free copies for your pals, so it's not like things were completely altruistic, and it certainly came across like you had been getting benefits for your work. You have the code, the confidential lists of alts we trusted Lanira (not you) with, and a solid system base that you can use (and obviously have been using) as a free recruitment tool for your guild and city. It's not a coincidence at all that Luminary membership and PK participation jumped up when members started being given a free system. I think people are within their rights to be upset - we paid for a system, it got handed over to someone else that we didn't sign up to have control over us, and now it's being used exclusively for one side of the game as a political tool, despite people for both sides paying for that continued development and support. I login every day wondering if my system is even going to work or if my access will be shut off.


1) I paid for multiple copies of Citadel. Citadel, as a system, ceased to be supported after Lanira left. I would also note that I am -not- the sole holder of the source code, I was the guy who was nice enough to be willing to add some alts for people and generally help them where I could. However, I won't put the other holders of the code through the crap I went through, but suffice to say, several are on the shadow side of the game. I say again, I never received a credit or any RL money for the work I did or have done with Citadel -or- Fortress. I don't play alts, so I did have some 'extra copies' to hand out, as you say.

2) You were not the only one, but after being repeatedly yelled at, cursed at, and in general, dealing with your abuse, I made the decision to branch Citadel, create Fortress, and continue updates for just about everyone. Some people got knocked off the list by accident because I didn't know who they were, and have since been added back. Some people, such as yourself, were deliberately knocked off. Actions have consequences and this is a consequence of your actions and the way you've treated me.

3) I have never, ever, revealed an alt of anyone's based off of information gleaned from the source code. It's not my style. The only exception was when I ignored you across all facets of the game, and I let the Heralds know, OOC'ly, why I did it so that you could message them for city credits. BIG NOTE HERE I HAVEN'T NAMED THE ALT

4) The growth of the Luminaries has not been a result of the system, and in fact, most of my newbies and members -don't- use the system. That's not to say I haven't given it out, I have, but it has only been after they've played a bit. Right now, there are 12 Luminaries on. Other than myself, -2- of us are using it. One is a newbie, one is not. I find it insulting that you would insult the guild and work that people like Edain, Aryanne, Jasline, Rashar, Lucus, Liska, and all the others do to make the guild awesome and say 'it's because of a system'.

5) Lanira told me I could do whatever I want with the code when he gave me access to it. He is aware of what I've done, and when I told him why I branched it, he pretty much said 'yea, I figured that would happen'. Your issue is with Lanira, not me.

6) You paid for Citadel. Citadel is a dead system, gone the way of dozens before it such as Kaeus' first system, Xarian's old system, Talonnb's old system, and others before it. Fortress is a new system, that has several changes in it, and while some of the base remains the same, there are differences as well. What I choose or do not choose to do with the system is, again, my choice. Years ago, Xarian's system went out to everyone and the life side had nothing comparable.

7) Again, people on your side have the source code. They just don't care to do anything with it. Lanira didn't make it 'life side only'.

8) Paid for continued development and support -- no, you paid for the system as is. You pay for any system as is. When you buy MS Word, if you want updates, you buy the new version. Also, the reason you were ignored 90% of the time is because the stuff you were demanding was stuff you can do client side using the editable lua functions that you couldn't be arsed to learn. And again, your issue is with Lanira. I don't have the list in front of me, but I would say probably 40% of the registered users are on the undead side of things. Of the last 10 or so characters I've added, 6 of them have been on the Shadow side of things, mostly either alts of users already on the list or their friends who they asked if they could have a copy. No, you may not have a copy.

9) Access to Citadel for you won't be cut off, because citadel is a compiled module. It doesn't handshake with a server anywhere. Once you're on the registered list, it'll work for you forever. I guess I could of been a jackass and pushed out an 'update' without your name on it in the hopes that you would DL it and overwrite your old copy... but that's not me, that's not who I am. When you, and a few others, made demands to the point that I no longer enjoyed it, I made the decision to branch it. Why? Because I'm not getting paid to take the verbal abuse you spew when you lose a fight. I'm not getting paid at all.

You probably should of been nicer.

tl;dr I'm not going to give my work out to someone who treats me like yesterday's garbage. Actions have consequences, these are yours.

Moirean

Please make him stop reposting this. It's clear through context who the alt is.

Areka

Idk man, there's plenty of folk who challenge Dask/call him names/whathaveyou. Maybe I've just missed it since I haven't seen anything lately?

Daskalos

It's not. No name is named, and I have no idea how you can tell who the alt is through this post. The only people that know the name are the ones who were already told. What line don't you like? Tell me and I'll edit it but I don't see anywhere where I've given out your alt or information that could be, through context, construed as your alt'. Is it that I said I -told- some people who your alt was because I ignored them? I don't go around screaming 'I ignored XYZ' -- and THOSE people know it's you because -I- told them when I said 'she'll come to you to msg me for credits'. They're not learning anything they don't already know. My theory is that because you don't like the response I gave to a post -you- made, that you're trying to get it deleted for other reasons. If there is an offending line that gives away an alt, then by all means delete it. But -you- stated that I was giving out alt names, which I take as a fairly serious accusation and I have a right to defend myself to such accusations.

Haven

Your feud wars with each other are tiring and old. It's rarely if ever even constructive criticism of each other. It boggles my mind that you two bother referencing each other at all in your posts ever after you've both made it clear you want nothing to do with each other.

I'd probably ban you both if I could considering the repeated slaps on the wrists you've both received about this matter has yet to change either of you's behavior. I know I ain't perfect but damn... stop it already. You both should be better than this.

Moirean

Daskalos said:

It's not. No name is named, and I have no idea how you can tell who the alt is through this post. The only people that know the name are the ones who were already told. What line don't you like? That I said I -told- some people who your alt was because I ignored them? I don't go around screaming 'I ignored XYZ'. My theory is that because you don't like the response I gave to a post -you- made, that you're trying to get it deleted for other reasons. If there is an offending line that gives away an alt, then by all means delete it. But -you- stated that I was giving out alt names, which I take as a fairly serious accusation and I have a right to defend myself to such accusations.

Daskalos

Whatever. You told -me- that alt, not Lanira, because you wanted Citadel for a third character (despite Lanira's limit of two). I ignored you for a reason, but you made a post attacking me and accusing me of theft and such, and I set the record straight. I'm going back to ignoring you, and I would ask that you cease using third parties to circumvent my in game ignore of you. Thank you.

Oleis

Haven said:

Your feud wars with each other are tiring and old. It's rarely if ever even constructive criticism of each other. It boggles my mind that you two bother referencing each other at all in your posts ever after you've both made it clear you want nothing to do with each other.

I'd probably ban you both if I could considering the repeated slaps on the wrists you've both received about this matter has yet to change either of you's behavior. I know I ain't perfect but damn... stop it already. You both should be better than this.

Unfortunately, I agree.