Liaison changes

Moirean

Doppie hangedman hasn't worked for years unless it's being brought back in?

Valingar

Indorani are getting some huge buffs this round. The hangedman change is pretty tiny in comparison. The class even gained a prone with a balance knock from it, and it's not particularly difficult to get someone prone for hangedman's writhe effect in a group setting. Domination ents are extremely hindery just on their own, it is not as if Indorani will lack for that. Passive lethargy from slime, confusion from bubonis, balance knock from gremlin, double parry (!!), crone and soulmaster amount to a lot of passive hinder. The new Chimera attacks operate on their own internal 'chimera' balance. They doesn't use up your own one to use.

Rowena

Unmasking moon means they're relying on RNG or a 3s dual slash. 

Every third one being hidden means it's slightly less random, but they're essentially just going to be hoping the chips fall right for them. 

RNG works for Shaman, but they're not trying to lock you, so I don't think Indorani will be very competitive. I can see why someone that doesn't use the class might think otherwise. 

Tina

Bubonis is a random affliction from a very large stack every 10 seconds.  It's rare to get a confusion tick from it.  Annoying yes, but not really hindering, and we are also taking nerfs.  Yes we got a larger affliction pool to fling with now, but 2 out of 3 will be unmasked, which is an equally huge nerf, since we don't speed afflict.  And any nerf to hangedman has a large impact as it is the only reliable setup we have for wheel.  Soulmaster does illusions and forced commands, it doesn't do a lot of passive hindering.  And writhing won't take extra balance anymore, so the last forced command you could spam to hinder is being taken out.  Yes, the class has passive hindering, probably because finish requires you to be hindered to work.  If you remove all the hindering, and don't give us a new way to finish, the class becomes unviable.

Moirean

Ents are on a 20-45 second tick, depending on type. Soulmaster gives a free illusion or free order every 45 seconds (I think you're confused what it does?). Indorani cannot specify what aff trees bubonis hits (that's Cabalists) so it's usually something only mildly/situationally useful like slickness. I agree that Indo are still fairly hinder happy, but I think you're overestimating ents.

Splitting the tarot into two trees makes the hidden affliction aspect a bit pointless - the idea was that it would be like chasten, and you'd sacrifice hidden affs for directed ones, but when each card is basically one curing tree, every aff can be hidden and it doesn't much matter, which was one of the main reasons moon was so mediocre to start with. 

The main issue is that Indo still lack any sort of mid-fight goal. They need a transition skill to help set up kills, since tumble > every single Indorani kill route except damage against a newb - and their damage has been nerfed by the statpack changes and losing damage pressure from devil bonedagger, not to mention the statpacks being very unfriendly to Indo, as their damage is split between dex and int, but there's no statpack offering that sort of option. Right now, they've been given some more robust attack options, but there's not really anything to translate that into a kill at high-level play. There's no salve pressure for vivi. There's no way to disrupt someone to prevent tumbles. Wheel is literally just a reskinned behead. I think the main goal with afflictions is going to be aim for aeon, perhaps, but aeon's been dramatically neutered, so it's really not the game-changer sticking it used to be.

All that being said, I think these changes will be helpful for Indo. It's unreasonable to expect the class to become really strong and viable from one liaison round, so I think these changes will be good. At the least, they will help identify Indo's weaknesses a bit better and make next round's changes even better for the class.

Xavin

I'm just going to echo what Moirean has said here, particularly the last bit about it being unreasonable to expect a single liaison round to ease all of the woes of a particular class. I think it's foolish to expect a single round to fix every problem, especially a round where we are seeing some pretty massive changes all around, not to mention the sheer number of changes that are happening all at once. I don't even expect this round to be a cure-all for mages, though I expect it will help a great deal.

Xavin

Maldoror said:

Areka said:

Can we have wands also be called 'rod'? For reasons. REASONS. 

There is already a rod mold in jewelcrafting. Believe me, I know.

If there is, I can't find it. Trying to get stuff situated for enchanting before the changes.

Toz

Xavin said:

single liaison round to ease all of the woes of a particular class.

Maldoror

Xavin said:

Maldoror said:

Areka said:

Can we have wands also be called 'rod'? For reasons. REASONS. 

There is already a rod mold in jewelcrafting. Believe me, I know.

If there is, I can't find it. Trying to get stuff situated for enchanting before the changes.

Ah, you are right, I was thinking of the sceptre mold. That is about the closest there is in jewelcrafting to a wand/rod. I thought there were some references for sceptre, but none are listed.

Areka

I just want a sturdy, hardwood rod I can have Areka point at people and give them tingling burning sensations. 

Jensen

Manreka cant do that?

Areka

Aisling said not in public.

Xavin

Well, I've messaged @Becue about getting rod as a reference for scepter or possibly porting wand over to jewelcraft. But who knows what will happen, @Areka.

Valingar

@Moirean: Your idea of assuming kelp on Sun if no paresis won't work. The kelp affs are all in Moon tarot. That said, it might have changed since you measured the times, but ents act much faster than you indicate! Slime is passive lethargy on a 10s tic. Crone is on a 10s tic. Chimera regains ability to act in 10-12s. Bubonis less sure on, but I think somewhere around 15s. Soulmaster ~24 seconds. Rest of times I've no idea on. I know what soulmaster does, obviously, and a free force or illusion is incredible for hindering.

Regardless, I think the old moon tarot was awful. The only remotely dangerous afflictions it gave were easily predicted. Touch amnesia, eat vial, concentrate and focus is enough to weed out most of the affs, even if they were masked more often than the current cards. The hindering ones might slip through sometimes, but that's not going to net an Indorani a kill. Their aff pool is way expanded by this round - almost doubled - and that's not even counting Adder, which they can combo their flings with any venom on demand. Definitely much stronger now.

Hangedman was a clutch mechanic. Imo, it had to be downgraded for Indorani to get any buffs - currently the ability gives them the option to delay fights they would lose anyway infinitely, until their target runs out of cures or rations. Indorani still have ways to get hangedman in - prone an offbal target with it and then use it, use it on a stupidity proc, soulmaster a forced prone and hangedman them after it.

Tralendar

I'd like to point out that resistance enchantments currently don't fade and last 45 months.  Please to be keeping it at 45 months...

Alee

• Enchantment has a decay time of 1500 Aetolian days (60 months).
  

they last longer now, at least for resists

Maldoror

Alee said:

• Enchantment has a decay time of 1500 Aetolian days (60 months).
  

they last longer now, at least for resists

Which means he will sell less of them. The introduction of orbs (casks) is going to change the market and prices for enchantments too.

Maldoror

Speaking of prices, I know it is small, but I dislike the change to reanimation. Market prices for reanimation are already less than concoctions. But the key difference is that concoctions does not require casks for tinctures the way reanimation does; smoked herbs can be sold out of the shop cache. Please consider that a reanimator has to spend 120 credits more than a concoctionist just to be able to sell a full range of products, and this change only lessens the value of tinctures. Also, I would argue that there are already a lot of differences between reanimation and concoctions, and there does not need to be perfect parity between the skills. (Another fun fact about reanimation: it is the only mercantile skill without a beneficial racial skill.)

Jensen

Good gravy I hate that rock harvest and rock crush are A) separate skills, and 3 racial points each.  end curatives derail

Daskalos

Maldoror said:

Speaking of prices, I know it is small, but I dislike the change to reanimation. Market prices for reanimation are already less than concoctions. But the key difference is that concoctions does not require casks for tinctures the way reanimation does; smoked herbs can be sold out of the shop cache. Please consider that a reanimator has to spend 120 credits more than a concoctionist just to be able to sell a full range of products, and this change only lessens the value of tinctures. Also, I would argue that there are already a lot of differences between reanimation and concoctions, and there does not need to be perfect parity between the skills. (Another fun fact about reanimation: it is the only mercantile skill without a beneficial racial skill.)

Concoctions also has a daily harvest cap, which reanimation doesn't, so both have their pro's and cons.

Maldoror

Jensen said:

Good gravy I hate that rock harvest and rock crush are A) separate skills, and 3 racial points each.  end curatives derail

Tinctures do not even require inks; they are essentially worthless, and this change is slashing their worth to one tenth their current value, not to mention that you don't even need sudorific or demulcent if you aren't into PK. Wisp ferment makes reanimation cheap and plentiful, and the market is glutted. As far as enchantments, a lot more people have this skill now, and orbs will make them even easier to acquire. Now that I think about it, these batch of changes is definitely aimed at lowering demand, and from an economic point of view, I think that is exactly the opposite of what the game needs. If you want parity between syringes and pipes, the solution should be that a pipe requires 10 herbs to fully pack. With enchantments, 60 uses or 30 Aetolian months for all of them. Please to be increasing demand, not depressing an already depressed economy.

Trigru

If you picked up Concoctions/Reanimation expecting to make money, you're gonna have a bad time!

Jensen

Trigru said:

If you picked up Concoctions/Reanimation Aetolia expecting to make money, you're gonna have a bad time!

Fixed that for you

Alaron

Toz said:

Xavin said:

single liaison round to ease all of the woes of a particular class.

I'm so glad someone has kept this Borscin (right? or is my memory failing?) pic for this exact moment. Kudos to you!

Serrice

Yep, it's Borscin.

Toz

If you search creeper borscin or stalker borscin on Google, it's the first thing that pops up.

Moirean

Valingar said:

@Moirean: Your idea of assuming kelp on Sun if no paresis won't work. The kelp affs are all in Moon tarot. 

? Razmael posted this:

• (1673) [Sun] tarot is now a clone of Moon geared to physical afflictions rather than mental. Their mechanics are identical. Available afflictions are paresis, clumsiness, slickness, vomiting, lethargy and sensitivity.

Ishin

You know, I'm a pretty angry guy sometimes. I mean, most(all) of you guys know that. In the past there have been very, very, VERY few liaison changes that didn't make me want to rage in some way. But I read this one, and I was just like.... damn, these are all some pretty good changes. So kudos to you guys. +1 for a great liaison round, I'm looking forward to more like this in the future!

Moirean

Trigru said:

If you picked up Concoctions/Reanimation expecting to make money, you're gonna have a bad time!

What. O.o I specifically don't consider going vamp because I'd lose my biggest money maker.

That being said, I worry that the changes might glut the market. 10-15k herbs a month is...a lot.

Valingar

@Moirean: Right, I'm not sure where I was going on that one. Must've misremembered during the early morning, not above admitting to that - sorry! Anyway, I don't think the selection here is made worse by any means, even without counting sun and adder cards. Moon no longer has vomiting or amnesia (the latter being removed is probably good thing), but gained a bunch of kelp for it: magic_impaired, asthma, weariness. Masked moon afflicting wasn't effective in the first place, at best hindery.