PK, RP, Fear and Respect

Jensen

Also have to remember that if you've always had someones back in a fight, they're probably going to vote for you.  You die with me when we're outnumbered?  I'm on your team

Haven

Haha, you make me miss being in a PK-centric organization @Jensen!

Jensen

@Areka I wouldn't vote for an incompetent leader that's top notch at fighting either.  I just lean towards powerful leaders and rply respect them more than their noncom equivalents. 

Ishin

Well, I'm sure you guys know my penchant for PK by now. I've only been playing Aetolia for what, like, 12, 13 years? Give or take, not including the year or two I took off there and sowed oats elsewhere. What a wild man I am, eh?

In the past, I was absolutely a monster PK whore. I'd kill anyone and everyone and probably didn't even need a reason other than 'Soandso peers at you suspiciously.' and then BOOM. I was off like a jackrabbit, basically griefing the poop out of anyone that drew my ire. I would like to think that, over the years and with a lot of hard work, I've come to have the respect of most of you in at least some form or fashion.

Because of how I used to be, I can easily understand @Rowena's rage about the whole situation. However, that doesn't mean I 100% agree with how she handled it. Might be pot calling the kettle black, but, calming down's something I've been working on for quite a while. It's not really easy, and as Rowena is kind've...fresh to the whole rush of 'HOLY SHIT I CAN PK THE SCRUB SHIT TALKERS NOW!', I can't really fault her for what she did. It's kinda like when you get a new tool or something. The 'omg wanna use' urge is strong.

I echo @Jensen's feeling that he really prefers to follow someone who is at least decent at PK. I'm more or less the same way. To be honest, I don't generally even -like- leading, but oddly enough, I somehow find myself in those positions anyway. I'm not sure if that's because nobody else really wants them, or if I actually do a good job at them.

That being said, I still have an incredibly hard time not wrecking people sometimes. Take this recent drama between Syssin > Spinesreach > Un-named others. I've been borderline on starting the wrecking ball to swinging, but I haven't - and it's a huge strain on me, which honestly is a huge difference in feeling from letting it go and PKing the crap out of a couple of people a couple of times, and it's far less immediately satisfying. Sometimes, when you have the ability to exact what -you- perceive as 'justice' or 'vengeance' on someone you feel has wronged you is an almost impossible thing to NOT use, and I think that people who are new to this ability will almost always find it far, far more difficult not to yield to it and let it loose than those who have had it for a while.

Demarcus

For those that know me, I don't PK. I'm trying to learn group combat, but the desire to learn 1v(1+x) just isn't there. I've had some pretty sour unicorning encounters in the past with the PK whores of Aetolia for this simple fact: THERE WAS NO RP. I *hate* alleged-RP kills with NO RP. I just seduced your woman, killed your child, stole a million gold from you, pooped on the statue of you in the middle of town square, and set your grandmother's house on fire with her inside. Groovy. If you're going to kill me, congratulations. You will succeed. That's like the Yankees saying they're going to spend money to buy their baseball team. No surprise there. If you get some sort of stupid kick out of "jumping" me because it gives you an "edge" though? Seriously? How about a little RP first? Even a... PKWhore brandishes their wet noodle menacingly and points it in your general direction. "Demarcus Locke, you've been charged with the crime of deficating on the statue of me in Spinesreach! By a jury of your peers, you have been found guilty and I am here to dispense your punishment! Have you any last words?" >say I like pie. You say, "I like pie." > PKWhore decapitates you. See? Wasn't that more enjoyable for everyone? When you make no effort to RP though, you go on my list. You know, the list of people who teased me in high school, or who have crossed me at some point, or the person with road rage on I-235 earlier, or that jerk that doesn't know what he's doing and is being a little unicorn. Yeah, you know the list. You don't want to be there. So RP *and* PK. Don't just PK. It goes a long way.

Toz

Smash first, ask questions/talk smack later. Otherwise they have a nasty habit of running. I know I would!

> Some vamp says, "I'm here to hinder you to death!"

> You say, "Voltda." ; goto spinesreach

Though this is perhaps why we can't have nice things.

Jensen

I'll put this as a public notice then. If you want some RP from me before the fight begins, hit me up with an ooc tell.  I'm not getting caught off balance emoting, or losing my edge.  I'm being serious, I will throw some lines at you or figure out a Spinesreach jail sentence. I am not going to gamble that you want to do that.

If I have an RP reason to kill you I'm likely hunting you down, or at best asking you to duel

Rowena

Ishin said:

Because of how I used to be, I can easily understand @Rowena's rage about the whole situation. However, that doesn't mean I 100% agree with how she handled it. Might be pot calling the kettle black, but, calming down's something I've been working on for quite a while. It's not really easy, and as Rowena is kind've...fresh to the whole rush of 'HOLY SHIT I CAN PK THE SCRUB SHIT TALKERS NOW!', I can't really fault her for what she did. It's kinda like when you get a new tool or something. The 'omg wanna use' urge is strong.

The bit about me is just incorrect. I've been able to PK in the past, I had Dexter's system back when he was one of the best PKers around and the Cabalists were the most OP class in the game. It's not new to me, I just chose in the past to be a non - combatant as I wanted to be known as a scholar in the Cabalists and wrote a bunch of books. Later I became a friend of nature and force of harmony and balance under old Iosyne. 

Me, the player, is more than capable of taking a step back, I'm not someone that rages constantly, or has raged constantly in the past. A willingness to use violence is just part of the RP. If I was a utterly terrible at combat Rowena would still pursue it in the same situations, the tool would be ineffective though and that would likely cause the character to move away from it and look towards something more effective.  

Stop confusing Rowena with me and stop projecting yourself onto me. Ask me in the heat of a conflict what I think OOC and you wont hear me raging and bitching to you, I'll be discussing the game, because it is just a game. Roleplay is acting, some of me comes across in Rowena but a lot of it is an act, I'm not a cold, callous killer and I'm also not a vampire cultist of despair, fear and malice.   

Demarcus

Jensen said:

I'll put this as a public notice then. If you want some RP from me before the fight begins, hit me up with an ooc tell.  I'm not getting caught off balance emoting, or losing my edge.  I'm being serious, I will throw some lines at you or figure out a Spinesreach jail sentence. I am not going to gamble that you want to do that.

If I have an RP reason to kill you I'm likely hunting you down, or at best asking you to duel

As long as we *both* know what the RP reason is and I have at least an inkling that I'm going to have an attempt on my life, I'm fine with getting jumped. When something happens two weeks ago, and then out of the blue I'm doing my thing and out of nowhere I get attacked and amidst trying to run away I'm asking what is going on and then someone else shows up and asks what is going on and I'm trying to run away and the person just says, "I'm killing Demarcus." Well yes, we can see that. Care to explain why? "Because." or "Because X." X happened two weeks ago, seriously? "Yes, now die." Thrilling.

If you attempt to RP and I run, now I know to expect what is coming to me. I'm still going to die. You're still going to "win." Congratulations. I just delayed the inevitable by a little bit, but made the interaction more intersting.

In all honesty, if the only way you can kill me is by jumping me you're in the wrong line of work. If you're afraid I'm going to magically turn into Daskalos and beat you into a pulp while you're on an 0.93s balance (or 1.00s depending on enhancements) you need to throw in the towel on PK. Not even kidding. I have to AB SPIRITUALITY to figure out ANY ability past SMITE every time.

I won't be SMITING anyone to death. Even if I remember to ANGEL TORTURE or whatever the heck the passive-affliction thing is, I still won't get anywhere. You win. Bravo.

PK withour RP is beyond pointless. I can't even fathom how it might be fun. If you're 16 with raging hormones, unable to find anyone of the opposite (or same) gender to have raging hormones with and drink a lot of Mountain Dew, maybe it serves some purpose to reduce your consumption of adult videos, but beyond that? Dumb. Give it some purpose. Give it some oomph.

Jensen

Noncomms who did something to warrant a death sentence but decide to hide are actually a lot more fun to hunt down.  Especially if I'm rocking syssin because there are so few places that are really safe.  That being said, I doubt you'd do anything to warrant a death from me and if you did you'd really deserve it.

Ishin

@Rowena - If you COULD PK, and did not, you're still a non-com. Having the ability to do something and not using it is no different than not being able to do it at all, regardless of whose system you had, or what their supposed rank was in the combat tiers at the time. I wasn't projecting anything, I was making a point..which I seem to have made rather well.

Nalor

It doesnt matter WHOS System you have you can still s*ck! ....

But I can PK but I keep away from it on my alt as I dont log in on him to get into combat, I do it for RP and a laugh so he is a non-com since he's NEVER done combat.. only two lessers where no fighting happened.

Carivah

Lin said:

Watching, carefully, how people respond to your character when you've been learning to fight is pretty interesting. It seems like the more your name appears on the winning side of deathsight, the less often people are willing to outright trash-talk or screw over your character. This isn't meant to be a blanket statement of course, and usually only applies to non-coms. I personally don't endorse acting more menacing than you can actually back up - mobs don't put up a fight, players do, so the "bashing disparity" doesn't really do much for me.

We've moved on some, as a topic, I know.

But some of the high-level hunting areas are difficult enough that I can't back this fully.

While I agree someone who wants to RP as someone threatening should be able to back it up, I think someone like @Alexina has just as much right to claim being dangerous as anyone else. Mobs will always be limited, but I don't want to start imagining the player-run cities are the only "real" places in the world. Carnifex RP falls completely apart if Jaru doesn't count as a real place whose citizens can actually be killed, for example.

Hadoryu

It's about whether you can or can't beat up the person you're RPing with though, not about whether you're powerful by any other metric.

Alexina

Anyone with a semi-decent offense could kill me if I tried to fight them. I don't think anyone could corner me and kill me 1v1 without me being able to escape, but that's true for the vast majority of people.

Rowena

Escape mechanics in general are ridiculously powerful. Much more reliable than any of the methods for keeping someone in the room and even then if you have an icewall, a Syssin can scale it, or raceskill leap over it unless the room is has a roof or is flooded without zepyhr. Then you have wings etc. 

It's a good thing in a way because it makes it harder to grief people and if they run constantly, the constant threat of being hunted until they die can work well IC. 

Daskalos

I disagree. I think the ease of escapability in Aetolia gives people a virtual shield to prevent them for having consequences to their actions. If you don't want to fight in Aetolia, you really don't have to. Escaping is that easy, and many classes can't do anything about it. Even Piety\Gravehands\Chains are bypassed by some things. Evade\Fade don't tell you what direction they went in, so the balance cost associated is a moot point, it's not long enough to chase unless you're fighting in a one exit room, and if you had icewalls up, you then have to either melt the wall  or leap over it, balance loss  yourself.

Personally, I'd like to see an across the board nerf on all escape abilities, or an across  the board buff on retention skills.

Leisane

I've been watching this topic and the debate that has been raging back and forth. How does the ability to PK affect IC interactions? How likely is someone to run the chance of losing to a non-com in roleplay combat, or giving the chance for a non-com to run away by starting roleplay prior to mechanical combat? I cannot honestly answer in favour of one side or the other, however, I have always enjoyed the discussion. That said, I wish to put in my thoughts, especially now, since I have had opportunity to roleplay from both standpoints: A person who used to be able to respond to contention very effectively through mechanics, and now someone who, whilst re-learning, is less able to respond through mechanics.

I suppose I'll start with the first topic. How much does the ability to mechanically PK affect any conflicting roleplay situation? I think we've come to the conclusion that if you can PK, your character is much more likely to be outspoken, to challenge a conflicting opinion/choice, or to generate conflict within and between organizations. After all, mechanics are considered, to an extent, an extension of our roleplay, so it would make sense that if we can use them effectively, they will affect our responses. However, the ability to PK comes in two flavours, in my opinion: Finesse, and Bludgeon.

Finesse would be to use the ability to PK as a complement to ongoing roleplay conflict, whilst Bludgeon would be the opposite, complementing your ability to PK mechanically with roleplay. The difference therein lies in that one style will consider avenues of roleplay alongside or even before defaulting to mechanical means of settling conflict, while the latter will default to mechanical and consider roleplay secondary. I understand that no matter the preference, sometimes mechanical will be the only avenue (e.g. lesser, wars, raids). My main contention with mechanical being a default is that a person's ability to code an effective offensive/defensive system should not overwrite a person who's ability to do the same is lacking or less effective.

For example: Zealot A has an extensive coded system that requires them only to type in 'kill' and the system runs off and can murder everyone. Carnifex B uses Firstaid and understands rudimentary triggers/aliases. The parties get into a conflict, necessitating a fight, and Zealot A trumps Carnifex B every single time no matter what personal development, knowledge, or other application of mechanics that Carnifex B can utilize. My point in this matter is that, from a character standpoint, the Carnifex is no less a master of deathlore and steel than the Zealot is of martial arts and Illumination, but no amount of roleplay development on the part of Carnifex B will lead to a situation, if mechanics are solely used, where that development has an outcome on the conflict.

I love PK, have for years, will continue to love it. The adrenaline, the hours spent dissecting code and putting everything together with duct tape and gorilla glue and then finishing off with spray paint, it is a rush to win a fight. The more I've roleplayed, though, the more I've come to realize that my character can grow in distinct ways if I allow myself to lose. A flip of a coin, a roll of the dice, these randomization factors in -any- encounter can create a situation in where a character who considers themselves a prolific fighter may find that they still have much to learn. It may boost the confidence or create a self-realization in the character the fighter had a conflict with. I know I am here to roleplay, first, and let my system win a fight for me, second. Others have different reasoning, but I like to hope we all have a wish to roleplay at heart.

Summation: Being able to kill someone is fun, effective, and has its definitive place, but perhaps, in some instances, more consideration should be given to the possibility that random acts of God(s) happen and even the most trained individual might slip up, creating opportunity for unique and exciting roleplay arcs out of the most innocuous situations.

Xavin

Daskalos said:

I disagree. I think the ease of escapability in Aetolia gives people a virtual shield to prevent them for having consequences to their actions. If you don't want to fight in Aetolia, you really don't have to. Escaping is that easy, and many classes can't do anything about it. Even Piety\Gravehands\Chains are bypassed by some things. Evade\Fade don't tell you what direction they went in, so the balance cost associated is a moot point, it's not long enough to chase unless you're fighting in a one exit room, and if you had icewalls up, you then have to either melt the wall  or leap over it, balance loss  yourself.

Personally, I'd like to see an across the board nerf on all escape abilities, or an across  the board buff on retention skills.

Could trigger the lines to throw an observe and then script an automatic attempt to follow in the direction they went.

Moirean

AB VISION ALERTNESS

Xavin

Moirean said:

AB VISION ALERTNESS

I would agree but alertness is dangerous to use when fighting certain classes due to the mana drain associated with the ability. If only bloodscent were a thing for everybody.

Jensen

Leisane said:

I've been watching this topic and the debate that has been raging back and forth. How does the ability to PK affect IC interactions? How likely is someone to run the chance of losing to a non-com in roleplay combat, or giving the chance for a non-com to run away by starting roleplay prior to mechanical combat? I cannot honestly answer in favour of one side or the other, however, I have always enjoyed the discussion. That said, I wish to put in my thoughts, especially now, since I have had opportunity to roleplay from both standpoints: A person who used to be able to respond to contention very effectively through mechanics, and now someone who, whilst re-learning, is less able to respond through mechanics.

I suppose I'll start with the first topic. How much does the ability to mechanically PK affect any conflicting roleplay situation? I think we've come to the conclusion that if you can PK, your character is much more likely to be outspoken, to challenge a conflicting opinion/choice, or to generate conflict within and between organizations. After all, mechanics are considered, to an extent, an extension of our roleplay, so it would make sense that if we can use them effectively, they will affect our responses. However, the ability to PK comes in two flavours, in my opinion: Finesse, and Bludgeon.

Finesse would be to use the ability to PK as a complement to ongoing roleplay conflict, whilst Bludgeon would be the opposite, complementing your ability to PK mechanically with roleplay. The difference therein lies in that one style will consider avenues of roleplay alongside or even before defaulting to mechanical means of settling conflict, while the latter will default to mechanical and consider roleplay secondary. I understand that no matter the preference, sometimes mechanical will be the only avenue (e.g. lesser, wars, raids). My main contention with mechanical being a default is that a person's ability to code an effective offensive/defensive system should not overwrite a person who's ability to do the same is lacking or less effective.

For example: Zealot A has an extensive coded system that requires them only to type in 'kill' and the system runs off and can murder everyone. Carnifex B uses Firstaid and understands rudimentary triggers/aliases. The parties get into a conflict, necessitating a fight, and Zealot A trumps Carnifex B every single time no matter what personal development, knowledge, or other application of mechanics that Carnifex B can utilize. My point in this matter is that, from a character standpoint, the Carnifex is no less a master of deathlore and steel than the Zealot is of martial arts and Illumination, but no amount of roleplay development on the part of Carnifex B will lead to a situation, if mechanics are solely used, where that development has an outcome on the conflict.

I love PK, have for years, will continue to love it. The adrenaline, the hours spent dissecting code and putting everything together with duct tape and gorilla glue and then finishing off with spray paint, it is a rush to win a fight. The more I've roleplayed, though, the more I've come to realize that my character can grow in distinct ways if I allow myself to lose. A flip of a coin, a roll of the dice, these randomization factors in -any- encounter can create a situation in where a character who considers themselves a prolific fighter may find that they still have much to learn. It may boost the confidence or create a self-realization in the character the fighter had a conflict with. I know I am here to roleplay, first, and let my system win a fight for me, second. Others have different reasoning, but I like to hope we all have a wish to roleplay at heart.

Summation: Being able to kill someone is fun, effective, and has its definitive place, but perhaps, in some instances, more consideration should be given to the possibility that random acts of God(s) happen and even the most trained individual might slip up, creating opportunity for unique and exciting roleplay arcs out of the most innocuous situations.

I'm not rp losing a fight to a noncom unless we somehow determined a story arc before hand that involves it.  I got into combat so that I could holistically portray my character and not just pretend to be a warrior.  If my opponent is crafty but cannot beat me on the field of battle, then let them use their other skills to defeat me.  Moirean gave the example of @Lin and the political prowess she used.  I'm not sure I could counter that (Though try me, I'm a crafty bastard when I want to be).  But I'm not going to handicap any strength of Jensen's to make it fair on an opponent, because that would be bad RP.

Ishin

Xavin said:

Moirean said:

AB VISION ALERTNESS

I would agree but alertness is dangerous to use when fighting certain classes due to the mana drain associated with the ability. If only bloodscent were a thing for everybody.

Sup moon tattoo and mana regen arti

Aishia

Still added risk!

Rashar

@demarcus

There have been very few times I have paused to say anything to someone who has done something to me to warrant being struck. That stopped being viable somewhere around the 10th grade. If you stop to flap your lips, you're asking for a broken jaw. Period. 8/10 who strikes first wins.

Additionally, I would never have even considered the thought of stopping to say something to anyone I have or will ever pursue with a more violent purpose. The suggestion is ludicrous. In real life, people will fucking murder you if you give them that chance. Or try. Or escape. Granted, I work in the realm of, for the most part, known bad guys. Established and confirmed. 

At times the police and even the military are forced to do this, as required by law or some policy mostly enforced by people who wear suits and never know the risk of combat. Fortunately, most of that is absent in Aetolia.

Both of these points are going off of your words:  "I just seduced your woman, killed your child, stole a million gold from you, pooped on the statue of you in the middle of town square, and set your grandmother's house on fire with her inside. Groovy. If you're going to kill me, congratulations. You will succeed" At that point, -you- have established the RP. It isn't anyone else's fault you forgot about it and don't understand why they're killing you two weeks later. I wouldn't consider that being jumped. And it has happened to me on more than one occasion, trust me. (And I didn't do -any- of those things!)

Don't think I'm defending the 'Blah blah, PK' group here. I don't think Rashar (or myself as a player) would ever be accused of that. I've got a system now that makes me decent, I guess, but I'm still far from throwing my weight around as a PKer, even if I could. That doesn't mean -Rashar- won't just go straight to, 'I'm going to come whack you if you don't shut up.' But I as a player will deal with the consequences of that as well, victory or loss.

Xiuhcoatl

Draiman said:

Do PKers who don't RP even exist anymore? This is a serious question.

Reporting in. I try not to RP Xiuh, because his RP nature is violent, anti-social, and would cause me as a player to not have very much fun. The only thing that I stay true to his actual RP, is that he's very violent against the Divine. Which comes from his want to eat them and seeing them as food. Other than that, I pretty much do whatever let's me enjoy the game. 

For all those that thinking/about to say WELL WHY DID YOU MAKE HIM!?!?!

In reality, I didn't plan on playing him for this long, but the main thing is I didn't think I'd sink as much money into him as I did which was a string of spur of the moment things. So now I have a character whose RP is no longer enjoyable, but I still play him because I've invested so much time and money into him. 

Really wish there was a way to turn in his artis and transfer the credits to a new character, or better yet transfer the artifacts to a new character. 

Ashmer

I honestly think it's a case of different strokes for different folks. There are non-combatants that Ashmer just plain wouldn't mess with, either out of respect, politics, or being unwilling to deal with the consequences of the action.

Dying itself doesn't have too much weight, and I think this goes a lot of different ways. I don't particularly enjoy seeing someone who enjoys the mechanics of PK try to use it as a bludgeon to have a plot or relationship go a particular way, myself.

Also, as a personal preference I keep every fighting interaction on a lot of levels:

1) Will this fight be fun for the other player (or) has this player been a complete troll?

2) Am I completely flat on the separation between character and player? For example, I make sure I'm not just mad at the other player before I go punching macros.

Among other things, so it's kind of more a collaboration between players and an agreed-upon match more than a straight-up murdering (though IC it's a straight-up murdering!).

I  try to use it to enhance Ashmer's character (I hope!), rather than for its own sake, but that's a personal thing, again.

 

Also, with the death-has-very-little-impact thing, I find it extremely frustrating when someone just assumes I'm a "PKer" (I hate these labels) and says "go on, kill me" and *yawns* while I start emoting out this bad ass stuff. I usually get fed up and just kill them, but gaw. I miss the days of truelocking people, sitting on their chest and ripping their tongues out before hitting Vivisect! Or the days when I first came back and had no system, when I had to accomplish stuff with no PK capability at all.

 

Irruel

I like the way you  @ashmer play Ashmer. You strike a good balance between the pvp and the rest of the game.

Toz

I always sort of looked at it as...a balancing factor, of sorts. A death doesn't mean much, but just like you can say 'Oh a death *yawn* whatever', I can say 'Oh emoted consequences *yawn* whatever' to anything a noncomm can do. So there's sort of this weird distribution of power, and it gets stranger the more I think about it.

It's late, I'm sort of rambling. The tl;dr is, just like it's kind of bad RP to walk away from someone who's midway through yelling at you for IC stuff, go tellsoff and just ignore them because they can't MAKE you get RP'd at, I think it's bad RP to just go 'whatever kill me then' and afk through the death. Like, read the messages for combat. That would HURT. A ton. If nothing else, it'd be extremely unpleasant to get bludgeoned TO DEATH - you might not be scared of it, but I doubt anyone would realistically just not care in the slightest. Don't be afraid of death if you've got a reason not to be, but like...fighting is still unpleasant, and painful, even if mechanics are more boring to deal with, mechanics should impact RP.

Ezrax

I'm like Jaime Lannister after his hand got cut off. He doesn't fight any more, but that doesn't stop him being a cock about it.