Problems with Carnifex class

Arbre

This discussion was created from comments split from: Ankyrean Anguish - Aetolia-based RAGE.

Xenia

I try to stay upbeat and generally positive about things but it's pretty disheartening when I find out that another class (this time Scios and Ascendril) are going to get revamps before Carnifex. My understanding was we were after Sentinels. I guess my anguish is there not being any sort of formal explanation about whats going on with the class or when to expect a change. 

Also 1v1 does make me make this face a little (a lot) ----- >

Moirean

I'm just bummed that we can't just be left alone until whenever the revamp comes and now even our cool RP mechanics like the hanging trees are being jacked.

Xenia

I'd just like to add: I rage because I love the Carnifex, and Aetolia.

Veovis

Moirean said:

I'm just bummed that we can't just be left alone until whenever the revamp comes and now even our cool RP mechanics like the hanging trees are being jacked.

That's terrisad. Carnifex seem like a class with a lot of awesome potential, and I'd totally at least apprentice if I could see Veovis adapting at all to the military style of the guild, because the RP atmosphere seems top notch. 

My understanding of the delay with the Carni revamp is that it's being done by an unpaid coder who's starting a new paying job and it had to go on the back burner until said coder has time. While it is quite difficult to pick up someone else's code project, especially if that project is complex in any way, I'd hope that the two paid coders would pick it up if it's going to be delayed for more than another month or two. It seems terribly unfair for the Carnifex (and bad for the game's income) to leave a class in the state that Carnifex is in.

Oleis

Xenia said:

I try to stay upbeat and generally positive about things but it's pretty disheartening when I find out that another class (this time Scios and Ascendril) are going to get revamps before Carnifex. My understanding was we were after Sentinels. I guess my anguish is there not being any sort of formal explanation about whats going on with the class or when to expect a change. 

Also 1v1 does make me make this face a little (a lot) ----- >

This is factually untrue. Did you see that in the December 2012 update thread? If not, I need to have a conversation with someone. Carnifex revamp is scheduled for Q1 2014.

Veovis said:

Moirean said:

I'm just bummed that we can't just be left alone until whenever the revamp comes and now even our cool RP mechanics like the hanging trees are being jacked.

My understanding of the delay with the Carni revamp is that it's being done by an unpaid coder who's starting a new paying job and it had to go on the back burner until said coder has time. While it is quite difficult to pick up someone else's code project, especially if that project is complex in any way, I'd hope that the two paid coders would pick it up if it's going to be delayed for more than another month or two. It seems terribly unfair for the Carnifex (and bad for the game's income) to leave a class in the state that Carnifex is in.

That was the case in June 2013. The unpaid coder was me. Now I'm a paid coder and while administrative stuff did indeed shuffle the priorities (and the scope of the project, which is now quite large) away from that autumn release, nobody is 'leaving' the Carnifex anywhere. Again, I really hope whoever is providing that information isn't a liaison or someone in a position of authority, because it is firmly outdated.

Valdus

There has not been a single revamp 'pushed ahead' of the Carnifex. I'll go ahead and give a status update here, so maybe this spread of misinformation/bitterness can be put to a stop.

We have known, and admitted, that the original Carnifex design was completely flawed. The original design was not created by any current coder in the pools, and because of that, we've since been working to come up with a feasible way to keep the class' flavor from their release while changing the (very poorly designed) skills to work in our combat setting.

At no point have the Carnifex been ignored; instead, like many of our revamps, we've gone through several iterations where we've been unsatisfied with the result, and had to go back to the drawing board. There are a LOT of things that have been requested - new weapons for carnifex, a complete redesign of the souls/soulstone system, a revamp of deathlore as a whole to stop being a poor copy of Necromancy, and a way to flesh out warhounds into a fully usable skillset rather than a bland one with a few tricks. This is a LOT of work, and though we're happy to do the work, it takes time and planning to ensure that the iteration we do meets the standards of quality we've been pushing ourselves to achieve.

Since we have announced these changes and since Oleis has been working on them, the only release that has been pushed forward is the Sentinel update, which was announced, designed, AND coding had been started before the Carnifex changes were even postulated.

I can assure you, we're working really hard to make sure this update to the class is not only worth our time spent designing and coding it, but is also worth your time as players to use, explore, and enjoy.

Xenia

@Valdus and @Oleis, 

Thanks a lot for responding to me. That is a lot of work, and I'll continue to be patient, sorry about getting confused over the situation. 

Oleis

Xenia said:

@Valdus and @Oleis, 

Thanks a lot for responding to me. That is a lot of work, and I'll continue to be patient, sorry about getting confused over the situation. 

It is not your fault at all. The forums are here for us to communicate with you guys effectively. Sometimes, unfortunately, that means dispelling misinformation.

Xiuhcoatl

@Irruel

Carnifex is the worst class in the entire game. Whoever went along with the ideas that it was even an acceptable substitute for the infernal class should be slapped senseless. There is no reason that it should have even been allowed through conceptual stages. I have no idea the amount of mind altering substances or pure stupidity of the person who came up with 9/10THS OF THEIR SKILLS. The basic concept of them is terrible. it's always been terrible. Someone needs to stop thinking they know combat. Even at the theory stage, because they don't. They most likely never have. If that is the sum of their knowledge to be put behind a class with a knight scheme, which BTW is the easiest combat to pick up. You know, double slash, razeslash if they have rebounding up, oh and you're given a solid passive offense that goes to complement your offense. What instant kills do the carnifex have? Oh right, they have a behead clone that starts off slower than it, and requires you to hit them for what is it? 25-30 times non-stop pretty much uninterrupted in order to be pulled of effectively. However, you bring up a point. Let's look at the lycan brainsmashing method compared to the carnifex method.

Let's look at how a lycan would get an empowered death level behead on someone. They would use their regular class offense to overwhelm the person they're fighting. Then they'd get a double lvl 2 break or a lvl 3 break on someone leg. They'd empower themselves, double check the conditions to make certain it's still true, and they'd go after them with the behead. They use their class based abilities to go into a behead/brainsmash. When they empower themselves through rage, they are immune to paralysis, stuns, and uncon. They outright do not get those afflictions, and the downside of it is you are unable to track your health and mana levels. It lasts for 40 seconds and can be put back up again after it. Until you get to that finisher level, which is the same requirements as a groinlock, you're doing pretty much the same old same old.

Now let's look at carnifex. You'd put up recklessness first. This is important because there's nothing a carnifex can do next to nothing to hinder someone enough for a brainsmash without putting up recklessness. Then you'd start going for the shatters. So, as you're channeling you can't cure the afflictions given to you. Recklessness doesn't stop paralysis, it just stops the effects. Furthermore it increases the damage you take by 15% for each affliction on you. So as you're channeling you're given paralysis and pretty much vlocked pretty quickly. If you go for their arm and either A, hit their parry, B miss, C, get knocked proned or the like the shatter stops, once recklessness wears off you're either vlocked, truelocked or damage killed. So you need to go for the arms first. Then you go for the legs. Wonderful, you have a person proned for brainsmash/behead. So you used one carnifex skill to get it. Oh, but wait if they leave the room it's done instantly. Also, you've gained no soul. Actually I need to be corrected. You do gain soul from this method if you use the class' shatter method. .6% of soul per shatter, roughly.

So if you get off multiple shatters in a row on a singular person, through weaponry or class mechanics, then you can use brainsmash, which is a better version of the class' behead for this their only viable route, in order to kill someone. This also relies on them not leaving the room once they see you shatter, since you're not doing anything until the shatter lands, and letting you get off multiple shatters in a row. Also warhounds are a god unicorn terrible. Worst passive skillset in the game. No other skillset consumes TWO BALANCES FOR USING A PASSIVE SKILLSET. Spiritwrack uses, oh right angel spiritwrack balance. Ordering a hound to do something uses, oh right, hound balance plus equilibrium. So if you miss the first attack don't worry you're just off equilibrium for a period of time in which you can do NOTHING ELSE. Worst. Class. In. The. Game. Whoever. Designed. It. You. Should. Feel. Completely. Incompetent. Because. You. Are. 

Toz

should also be noted any channeled instakill turns off Carni recklessness and the cool down on it is over 10 minutes. I have more to say, but on my phone.

Arbre

Valdus said:

- a new ferality attack to caused delayed prones, so setting up non-groin jawlocks should be a fair bit easier.

This is beautiful.  I can get the other jawlocks, but by the time I do, groinrip has faded.  Not that I mind groinripping.

Toz said:

should also be noted any channeled instakill turns off Carni recklessness and the cool down on it is over 10 minutes. I have more to say, but on my phone.

When it comes to Carnifex, you ALWAYS have more to say.

Toz

The class gives me so much ammo, without me even trying. But I actually meant about lycan combat, and limb combat in general.

Toz

Valdus said:

There has not been a single revamp 'pushed ahead' of the Carnifex. I'll go ahead and give a status update here, so maybe this spread of misinformation/bitterness can be put to a stop.

We have known, and admitted, that the original Carnifex design was completely flawed. The original design was not created by any current coder in the pools, and because of that, we've since been working to come up with a feasible way to keep the class' flavor from their release while changing the (very poorly designed) skills to work in our combat setting.

At no point have the Carnifex been ignored; instead, like many of our revamps, we've gone through several iterations where we've been unsatisfied with the result, and had to go back to the drawing board. There are a LOT of things that have been requested - new weapons for carnifex, a complete redesign of the souls/soulstone system, a revamp of deathlore as a whole to stop being a poor copy of Necromancy, and a way to flesh out warhounds into a fully usable skillset rather than a bland one with a few tricks. This is a LOT of work, and though we're happy to do the work, it takes time and planning to ensure that the iteration we do meets the standards of quality we've been pushing ourselves to achieve.

Since we have announced these changes and since Oleis has been working on them, the only release that has been pushed forward is the Sentinel update, which was announced, designed, AND coding had been started before the Carnifex changes were even postulated.

I can assure you, we're working really hard to make sure this update to the class is not only worth our time spent designing and coding it, but is also worth your time as players to use, explore, and enjoy.

I kind of skimmed this before, and I'd like some clarification now. No class has been 'pushed ahead', but 4 classes (so far) have been heavily modified/revamped/released/whatever and Carnifex have simply been nerfed on loop. When the class was first released, it was to coincide with the promised delivery of the Templar class, and though even the current liaisons indicated that tests etc. weren't complete the class, it was released anyway in sort of a 'beta' stage, with the promise being it'd be the first thing touched up and fixed up. We have projects (still) and help files (still) from back then. This was under the previous administration, true - but it's important to know the background and try to figure out where things went so far awry. In fact, the common thread through all of this has been 'You aren't forgotten, we're working on you next, you're going to get your fix Soon(tm)'. For 2+ years I've heard this mantra, and I stopped believing it quite some time ago.

So I'm curious as to the mis-communications here - Carnifex are slated to be released in Q1 of this year, prior to any other class modifications (other than the latest liaison round, that we were excluded from despite some liaisons complaining our guild members weren't participating)? If Sentinels were the only ones pushed forward, how is it that Shamans, Sentinels(x2), Teradrim(x2?) have been advanced so fast while the Carnifex (which were never actually *completed*) haven't been touched except to nerf? Let me be clear - I'm not whining, or complaining. I'm trying to understand the logic present, because currently I don't see any, and that frustrates me greatly. So, here are a few questions:

- The Carnifex have had a list of simple things they'd like to see from the class that would have improved their playing experience (including input from Yettave and Mastema, two who have quit playing as a DIRECT response to the class' continued worthlessness), myself, and even Luna I believe, for 2+ RL years. To my knowledge, nothing from this list has ever been mentioned/addressed. If it weren't so late, I'd log in to double-check. Why has nothing been done at least for a 'band-aid' fix? This has been 'top of the list' priority for a long time, or so we've been told (repeatedly, please don't make me find all of the instances because it'll take me hours) - yet nothing has been done? At all? Why?

- Not necessarily a question, but for certain Carnifex is the next class being touched up/messed with in any significant way? Every time I tell a guildmate 'yeah they're working on it' and then another class comes out, I look bad. It's frustrating to feel like I'm lying to people, AND it's frustrating to feel like I'm being lied TO in an effort to keep me paying and playing. So, before I continue down that road, I'd like 100% absolute certainty.

- What occurred that resulted in other classes having revamps see the light of day well ahead of the Carnifex revamp, without any of them being pushed ahead?

Valdus

What are these miscommunications you're talking about? Oleis explained the timeline for the Carnifex update pretty succinctly earlier in the thread. Shamans, Sentinels, and Teradrim have been the projects of other volunteers, and are handled separately as a result. We are not going to give exact release dates or orders for this precise reason - a lot of components rely on volunteer work, and we're not going to specifically delay finished releases because players feel their class should come 'first' or next'. The volume of complaints does not dictate the release priority.

Having a list of ideas doesn't mean any of them are going to be accepted or implemented - we consider them when proposed, and some of the suggestions we've collected are slated for the class' update.

Ezalor

I think that's the nature of most Aetolia/IRE projects - they're heavily volunteer driven and there's not much stopping a volunteer from simply getting up and dropping it. That is the reason you see many unfinished projects and ones that might not adhere to strict timelines; as great and awesome as our volunteer base often is, they're under no actual obligation to do stuff. I would also guess this is why the Month of Whatever posts were stopped; while it's great to let us know what everyone is working on, some of those volunteers grow bored and/or disappear, which leads to perceived broken promises.

I think that's also the reason some might perceive unfairness or a skew towards some faction or other, because that faction's volunteers actually finish their projects while others are left behind.

That said c'mon there's like weekly whining about Carnifex here and always some attempted guilt trip about listing off people who quit the game. Yeah we all want it RIGHT MEOW but there are also 200+ liaison changes to be coded and tested along with core game fixes (of which there have been a -lot-). Yeah the class is bad at PK but it's hardly the only class that's bad PK-wise. I don't even whine this hard about shed. 

@Oleis and @Valdus have said it will be done in Q1 and they've definitely earned the benefit of the doubt at the very least with their work so far. I'm sure people feel jaded and abandoned and all with the past but such is the nature of volunteer-driven projects. I highly highly highly doubt Oleis would make such a statement without backing it up.

Oleis

@Toz, I think I know where you're coming from. Hopefully this wall of text will be helpful.

When I joined Aetolia as a volunteer in May/June, things were very scattered in terms of (a) what the producer (whether Raz or Galleus) had promised players (b) what had actually been started/not scrapped of those promises (c) what was actually released. And while Razmael and others were very patient in explaining to me the state of things, I can't say that I really understood everything. In terms of class revamps and changes, I knew that there was to be a revamp of the way we handle Lycanthropy (conceptualized), a revamp of the Sentinel class to fully change it after the Dhuriv bandaid (designed with coding in progress). Mage classes were definitely on the way at some point. To my knowledge, there was no intention of having another Carnifex revamp at that point.

Which is why, when we opened liaison reports not long after, Carnifex and Teradrim got lots of attention. They certainly needed work. We compiled the wealth of reports and started thinking about how we were to approach the situation. It was at that point that we decided Teradrim was getting a mini-revamp (all the approved liaison reports plus a couple of ours). Carnifex was to get the approved reports. I got Teradrim (and the rest of the reports) mostly done when my availability for volunteerism tanked.

When I returned to Aetolia as a paid staff member a month or two later, priorities had shifted. The lingering Carnifex liaison bundle was now to be another pretty significant rework, with Savagery getting a full mechanical recode (alongside some important design changes), Deathlore getting some fundamental work, and Warhounds being completely reconceptualized to 'not suck'. This, between the agreement at the end of the liaison round and the initiative to rework Carnifex more thoroughly, was the genesis of the current Carnifex revamp. Not something before.

You make an honest assessment that we have to take into account the promises of previous generations. And on an emotional and supportive level, I certainly do. I understand that you've been promised a lot of things that will never materialize and a number of things that took quite a long time to do so. I'm relieved that Sentinels are out. I'm overjoyed that the Lycan changes are coming soon. The Carnifex change is more like a benign tumor on the side of your neck. Nothing's going to kill you but god if it doesn't make life miserable until you get it dealt with. 

What I can't do is answer for anything in the past that we don't want anymore. If it's not part of the plan, it's gone. If it is part of the plan, then by god it's getting done. Our focus in the Pools right now is clearing the slate. Getting our responsibilities (Sentinels, Lycans, Carnifex) out of the way so that we can tread new ground that's actually new -- new revamps you haven't heard about, new concepts with ylem and conflict to make this game more interesting. And I couldn't be happier to say that you won't hear about them. No more pie-in-the-sky promises that never solidify. We're doing our best to get better at the things Aetolia has struggled with since its inception. And we're getting there.

Toz

@Ezalor: Drop BB and fight as Carnifex for a month. I'm pretty much done logging in on Toz until the changes come out, because there's no point - between better systems now, other classes getting revamped and stronger (like Sentinels especially), I seem to get a laundry list of 'special' people shouting/sending me random insults/challenges, and there's not a whole lot I can do about it. Which is really, really awful, and really, really frustrating - I have other classes, sure. But if I wanted to primarily play those classes? I'd be in that guild, lining up with that RP.

@Valdus: The mis-communications. The ones I listed, and the ones @Oleis answered. Your post had a few points that conflicted with what had been said before, or seemed to, which is why I asked the questions I did.

@Oleis: Frustrating that Carnifex managed to slip through the cracks as often as it did, despite the repeated promises, but thank you for answering the questions.

Ezalor

@Toz I don't deny at all the class is broken, but it's the same thing played out every week in this thread. Some Carnifex posts about how bad their class is, Oleis gives an answer, all is well for a week, then it just repeats again. Even if Carnifex haven't been done yet, look at all the work they've done in other areas. He's said it will get done, he's definitely earned the benefit of the doubt, posting and guilt tripping about it every week really isn't going to help things. It's more likely to just create tension and resentment for both sides than anything productive.

Indorani, Cabalist, Mages, there are many other classes that are horrible 1v1 as well, it's a lot to get through even discounting the biggest liaison round yet.

I'm not saying the complaints aren't valid, but it's already played out like 3 or 4 times in this thread.

Arbre

Moirean said:

@Oleis:

When I first took over Carnifex back in Feb 2012 I proactively tackled the guild's issues - this included discussing the core issues of the class's skillsets with the admin. We compiled problems, we worked together on coordinated report submissions, and we approached the administration. Some of the replies we got were incredibly unprofessional (I was literally told "lolno" and "lolwat" by some of the staff) but some of the responses acknowledged the problems, and we were told that we could possibly sit down to have a town hall with the staff to discuss issues. Time zones were considered and we were then instead asked to forward our projects of the compiled issues and suggestions to the admin, which we did.

I was then banned. That doesn't mean the class stopped sucking, it just means that the main coordinator for player suggestions and issues about the class went away. When I got back and took GM again in March 2013, I went back to discussing the issues, and I was told that the admin already had their own plans for the class. After this, we received several downgrades, some in response to forum outcry, such as the penetration change which made building soul much harder. 

These things have all been public knowledge.

I have tried my best to remain positive and encouraging to my guild and class (we have a clan for everyone with the class), telling people to just wait a bit longer. It's incredibly unfair for you to imply that I'm doing a bad job as a player leader/liaison and giving people bad information as you did in your earlier post when I've only ever sat and tried to make people be happy with the admin choices. Yes, we rant a bit - that's what players in a game do - but I have not shared liaison-only information or timelines aside from telling them that admin aren't ignoring Carnifex and the ideas look good, ie sharing POSITIVE things that help people deal with the waiting. This really shouldn't even be my job. I'm a player, not a staff member, but that's the position I find myself in. To then see you post saying that "SOMEONE" is doing a bad job is just incredibly unfair.

The latest report round is kinda salt in our wounds. We weren't allowed to submit really any reports (we snuck in a few tiny utility things anyways), but reports were submitted that touched on us. 1401, for example, takes a Carnifex RP mechanic and makes it something others can do. 1469 was rejected because one of the solutions was a mirror to a Sentinel ability, but for some reason 1401 is fine even though it's the exact same thing, but it's a Carnifex mechanic being copied. The guild has stayed strong because of our roleplay and activity and it feels like a bit of a smack in the face when we're now seeing our RP mechanics taken from us and made into something everyone can do on top of everything else. It's not the specific mechanic in question, bear in mind, it's what that feels like combined with everything else - it makes us feel like either admin simply don't care about the Carnifex, aren't aware of what our unique features are, or  (though I seriously doubt this personally, some people have expressed this sentiment) actively trying to punish us more for repeated whining.

Regarding the players leaving the game (more for @ezalor) - some may do it for guilt trips, but it's a tangible issue. I'm not just talking about established players, either. I've seen new players who were excited and active vanish (sometimes with messages explaining why) after they come face to face with the bitterness other members of the class have (which just brings me back to having to police people and make people stay upbeat about a meh situation) or after hearing about the issues the class has or even after trying to bash (Razmael helped give a bit of a bandaid there) or spar. We're a pretty active guild, and we're a popular archetype. I obviously don't know any of the numbers driving anything, but I do watch what happens within my own guild and I've seen brand new players to Aetolia join because they like the concept of the class and then stop playing completely. Perhaps there's more money to be made by getting existing players to pick up revamped classes, but I would think in the long-run new players would net more credit purchases overall.

On top of this, we also struggle with the changes to the newbie process, which have shoehorned us into a city that has actively shown it does not want us. Our guild is not a guild that forces members to be Undead, but Bloodloch does force that on people and within a very short time frame. We've tried bridging this disconnect ICly, but it's not working, and we've even been accused of actively trying to make people quit Bloodloch, when we go out of our way to try to help new players fit in. The issue is that when you have a new player, throwing another big choice and new mechanic on them - go Undead or not - on top of all the things they are learning...that's not ideal. Carnifex who join Spinesreach because they either don't want to go Undead or they are confused by the process or are EJECTED from their starting city as a brand new player then get burned because the Academy doesn't have courses for non-city guilds. This obviously isn't a Carnifex-only issue, but it is one that we face more than other guilds due to the Undeath/living stuff. This issue has been brought up several times, but there does not seem to be any interest in fixing this problem.

I'm not trying to excessively rant or throw around blame, but I think it's important that the root of our complaints are understood. It's not just a timeline thing - it's the feeling that we're being seen as just loud and upset people, when there are valid reasons for our emotions. It's the feeling that admin aren't fully aware of things, ranging from the impact of staff decisions on the guild/class, our mechanics, our roleplay or the root of our feelings about the class's issues. When changes and decisions continue to enhance these feelings, it feels like the core problems aren't being addressed and we're just being fed lines to make us feel better, while adverse stuff keeps being done in the background, especially when posts are made pushing blame onto the player leadership and liaisons, citing us as the reason people are discontent. That simply is not fair.

Haven

I feel like I'm missing something.

Daskalos

Someone's defensive. I look at it like this, and it's a lesson I've learned the hard way:

The squeeky wheel gets the grease, but along the way, everyone hates the squeeky wheel because it's only a matter of time before the wheel squeeks again.

If they pushed out a revamp tomorrow, I have a feeling it would be the 'we were forced into Bloodloch' rant. I saw nothing where they accused you, @Moirean, of doing a bad job, but I do find it incredibly egotistical of you that you believe that the class is only being addressed because you're back to raise hell, so to speak. You act like you getting banned (which by all accounts was your own fault, and lasted, what, a year?) stopped the class progression. It didn't. Having volunteers work on it (see @Oleis' post) and a producer change (see, @Galleus to @Razmael) halted the class progression.

I think the point Ezalor is making, the a point a lot of us have made, is that we're tired of seeing you guys complain like you're the only problem in the game, and then pulling the guilt trip of XYZ quit the game on top of it? It's just lame. People quit the game all the time, there are people that quit the game when Infernals went away (see: Borscin) people who quit the game because the -Priests- were dissolved years ago. You can't fret over those that have left, because at this point, they're probably not coming back. What you -can- do, and what they -are- doing, is work towards a release as best they can. And they are, and because it's not fast enough, there's more bitching and complaining, and -that- is what people are tired of. Everyone gets that the class is busted ass broken. Ask Xenia, I even told her 'I think you're screwed here' after I had a few ideas we tested, tried, and they didn't work.

But really, enough already. Your revamp is in the works. It's coming. It's not in this liaison round, because I imagine it's coming very soon and why waste time coding a class that's about to be replaced? What you're doing would be akin to me still complaining about Retardation, despite the fact that I know a retardation change is coming. Do I know what? Nope. But I've been told it's getting done, and so far, this administration hasn't given me a reason to doubt them.

Xiuhcoatl

snipped

Oleis

Nothing about that post was productive or acceptable. You're mad, we get it. You've made that same long, incomprehensible, overaggressive post in every thread that remotely touched Carnifex.

You're mad a lot, Xiuh, and that's okay. You're a guy with ideas. But it would be helpful if you didn't have angry word vomit on such a regular basis.

Xiuhcoatl

Not even mad. Just voicing my opinion. I wouldn't be voicing negative opinions if something positive was put in front of me. That in not the case. Therefor, the feedback is only going to be negative. Pretty certain, most of that was constructive. The summary was not. 

Daskalos

...if that wasn't mad, I don't want to see you mad. 

Ashmer

Toz

So hey. We got booted out of Ankyrean Anguish for talking about a topic. Clear these off-topic posts into a 'Trolling Xiuh' thread or something, this is mine.

Ashmer

Sorry, I was trying to lighten the mood with a witty picture. @Xiuhcoatl knows I'm a complete @Xiuhcoatl fanboy. For what it's worth I agree with all of the main points mentioned here about the Carnifex class, having sparred and dueled Carnifices (plural?) on several occasions. It's poorly designed, has unnecessary costs to skills that... really have no reason having a cost, is a knight class with no dual-raze or razeslash, and basically pales in comparison to all of the other classes, including Indorani and Cabalist. I'm REALLY not one to say this, EVER, as I put very very little stock in coded balance as far as the outcome of a fight, but the Carnifex class is pretty gimped and has an inordinate amount of janky, useless stuff in it, in my perfectly honest opinion.

 

I'm waiting with bated breath to see what emerges from the bat cave when @Oleis and @Valdus and @Whoeverelseisus is done with it, and I hope you enjoy several months of OP ballsmashing before they have to balance things out and apologize for making them even more OP than Templars. Then we can spar, @Toz.

 

Valdus

Yes, let's wait and see what emerges. Let's invest that negative energy elsewhere!