Cross factional RP

Haven

Daingean said:

I play a zealot and still engage in cross factional rp.

This is a character that still hates light-aligned syssin class, argues against the Azudim race almost entirely because their aesthetic feels wrong to him and sees almost anyone who doesn't at least admit that he's right within his sphere of reasoning as unforgivably stupid.

There's the Gentle way of going about it - a character who flagrantly flaunted the fact that Enorian doesn't have association laws to allow a vampire to feed on him in exchange for social interaction and then got mad at those who wagged a finger, which should be frowned upon by Light/lifer/cycle/etc orgs, and there's the other way, of interacting with the other side with the understanding that there is a line between spirit and shadow, and crossing it will have various consequences.

I don't exactly see the difficulty other people are having with it, but then, as I've stated before, the polarity of Aetolia is it's entire appeal to me, and the notion of wanting to hang with my bloodloch homies while meditating on the Great Spark has never called to me. One of the hardest things I had to do was stick to my character when Moirean reached out to him icly since they're related and such, but he's got nothing to say to her.

..You do realize that you can have a roleplay session with Moirean while still conveying that same tone/role throughout the interaction if you wanted without compromising your character's standard/ideals, right?

[spoiler]

Ignoring the laughter and playful hollering of the children surrounding the fountain at the center of the Delosian square, Daingean crosses his arms over his chest and offers his pigeon a reproachful look. With the corners of his lips twisting and tightening into what closely resembles a grimace, it's almost as if to say to the creature: Don't even think about having fun. Duty is absolute and there was evil afoot somewhere nearby. He could sense it!

Riding atop a mangy hound, Moirean enters from the east.

The gods can be generous sometimes. At least that was the thought that traversed Daingean's thoughts as he shot his bird a triumphant look to which yielded him a gnarled chime from the stylish pigeon in a tuxedo. With Moirean's arrival, the Zealot found himself standing a little straighter in her presence. Not a desire to impress. Not a hint of respect. It wasn't even fear that brought the wilting of his mood like a flower beneath a necromancer's touch. From the faint curl of his lips to expose the bottoms of his teeth, right down to the clenching of his biceps over his crossed arms, it was disgust that reigned supreme over his expression like a steadfast conqueror.

<insert Moirean emote here followed by more of Daingean pointedly ignoring her and possibly on edge.>

[/spoiler]

You could have an entire RP session made up of entirely that that's engaging and (hopefully) enjoyable for the both of you depending on how you played it. You don't need to literally ignore/avoid roleplaying with Moirean to convey a role of animosity. It doesn't need to be clipped either. Remember, we're writing a story here and you can't...really tell a story without writing one. Which means we need to interact with each other regardless of the side of the fence we're on.

Edit: On second thought, I might have misunderstood you. If so, apologies and disregard my post.

Tralendar

I'll chime in here.

Association laws/traditions are retarded.

I've been against them for years because they just stifle things.  It's just less fun as you only interact with the people on your side of the game.  It's also one of the biggest reasons I switched from being one of the prominent lifers to being one of the prominent darkies as I never gave a damn about association laws.  As a lifer I was constantly harassed about it to the put where the lifers got a giant middle finger as I switched sides.  I've never had much issue with association stuff since.  With the Moirean thing, I was yelled at a bit by people and questioned about it, though it never went beyond that as it didn't effect my duties.  On the other side of the spectrum though, Moirean was basically stripped of all organizations and tossed out.  It has seemed to be a reoccuring theme with lifers over the years and while not as bad as it was a couple years ago, lifers are still pretty bad about it.  Sessizilik was getting in trouble with talking to me not that long ago about history stuff where I was a major player in it (Founding of Ascendril) and the only active player.  I know that there are many players that have switched sides over the years in part because of association laws (there are other factors as well though).

Jensen

The polarity of the game is supposed to influence your characters interactions but not dictate/force an iron curtain between sides.  Otherwise the only relationship would be pure PK with silence or rage arguments in between.  The auto enemy and shunning only enhances the shallow conflicts and discourages actualy rp and (more importantly to my character) rpk.  

Allowing for individual player determined cross factional RP allows non combatants a chance to influence each other and play out zealous, religious, philosophical, and cultural discussions.  It brings flavor to the tension, unless of course you all like plain shredded wheat and the color grey.

Ciarelle

Tralendar - to clarify, the disagree is aimed at your appraisal of the Ascendril situation. There's already been a link posted on this thread to the thread where that was discussed. Perhaps stick to your personal examples?

Haven

I'm against association laws in general for reasons already named in this discussion. (Plus I think @Hadoryu said it best in the other thread when this topic first cropped up.) However, I can also understand why some people or any organization really would try to implement them. They're a misguided attempt to deal with the outlier problems that things like the tethering and class dispensing system we currently have in place cause. They eventually force an IC and OOC conflict of interest where on one side you really enjoy or are interested in playing a <insert class here> while on the other side you don't enjoy or aren't interested in the idea of roleplaying <insert ideology here> that's currently employed in the organization.

What we end up having on occasion are those players that beg the question, "Why are you even part of this organization if you don't believe in its core ideals?" I think that's what association laws attempt to try and address even if it is the wrong strategy / poor bandaid fix. Multiclass partly alleviated the problem of those players that fall on the outside of the norm but it also essentially killed the archaic design of class = identity. Until guilds take the next evolutionary step and shed their class dispensing focus in favor of being ideology based, you're going to keep getting  these issues I think.

Daskalos

...who even has Association laws? Has anyone actually, you know, found an organization that still enforces anything of the sort? If you want to gripe about 'lifer' laws, why not make sure that the laws you're griping about still exist?

Angwe

As I pointed out already, no one does.

See my signature below for my face when.

Toz

I think what you're missing, @Daskalos, is the complaint that 'Association laws AND THE ATTITUDE BEHIND THEM' is the trouble. And that's more a lifer problem than a darkie one. Lifers are more likely to get preachy about association even if there aren't explicit laws against them - see Teani being harassed by some random 18 year old, people getting yelled at by guilds etc. Now, to be fair, there ARE such things as over-stepping with cross-faction RP. But, I think darkies tend to draw that line pretty faintly in the sand, whereas some people on the lifer side (which is what, unless I've misread, people are kind of griping about) draw that line as the Maginot line and add in flaming, angry neon pink signs.

Daskalos

If a guild is yelling at about it,  change the guild or change guilds. If it's an 18 year old, -who cares what an 18 year old thinks-. I mean, as long as you're not sleeping with the enemy, or feeding them lines, or refusing to fight them on the basis of 'but they're not so bad' then it shouldn't be a big deal.

In the end, Enorian is Enorian. We're the city of Light, and you're not going to see us teaming up with Spinesreach\Bloodloch except in EXTREME situations. To expect us to tolerate and love the Spireans is an exercise in futility. That's not to say I don't RP with some Spireans, I do, but never once would I be swayed. Usually it's more friction filled than  snuggle up with the bad guy.

Bottom line, it -is- possible to respect each other as players without changing our IC views so we're all snuggly and cuddly with each other.

Sessizlik

"The Ascendril Order is a pro-Spirit guild committed to the betterment of Life and members are expected to adhere to this path individually as well. Prolonged and/or close contact with the Undead and their allies is strongly discouraged."

 

I Think this is as close to an association law one can come without it being one. But what exacty is considered prolonged or close contact? That sounds like something that could be interpreted very individually. Sessi doesn't feel like she's had any super-close contacts, even if she's been friendly with some people. As for prolonged, should this be interpreted as close Contact for a long period of time? Or is it loose Contact for a long period of time? Perhaps it means when you spend several hours at one go, rping with someone? It's very sketchy.

Rashar

I think it is going to be interpreted by the individual. And unfortunately, as in real life, who that individual is greatly affects what happens with the situation. If your boss has a different idea of what 'stay busy and don't sit around' is, you may have some problems. If your leadership has a different idea of what 'Don't spend all your time hanging out with 'bad guys' is, you should probably get on the same page.

I spend quite a bit of time wandering around poking at random people, and I've never had anyone talk to me about it as far as leadership from -anywhere-. But I have also never attempted to bring them into the city/Council/Guildhall, either. I've had 'friends' mention it, but you have to look at those situations as completely different, and just play it out.

Xavin

If I recall, I revised that line into its current form. Basically, it's a 'don't be forming intimate/close relationships with people in organizations we oppose', particularly the intimate part. Spending a few hours roleplaying with someone in an opposed org isn't a big deal, as long as it's not a super regular occurence. However, there are certain forms of relationship that, to me, just aren't acceptable.

Tralendar

Ciarelle said:

Tralendar - to clarify, the disagree is aimed at your appraisal of the Ascendril situation. There's already been a link posted on this thread to the thread where that was discussed. Perhaps stick to your personal examples?

That is a personal example and I've had many others close enough to such things (it was not a unique situation) and there were a few others involving other Ascendril farther back.  I'm not quite as ignorant as to how these things generally play out, nor do I care if there is another thread on it as it wasn't the point of my post.

Notice that I also put association traditions in that post I put up here.  Just because you don't have something that says it is a law does not mean that the general idea isn't enforced as one.  Most clear cut laws on the subject were killed off a while ago (couple years at least), but the problem still remained.  I have always made it a policy to just not care about such things except in very extreme circumstances (oh hey, you're helping them raid/steal/murder org members) as it's just going to drive them away most of the time and stifle interactions and if they get enjoyment out of it, they're going to do it anyways or jump sides.  Lifers coming to talk to big, bad Tral are almost never turned away (unless I'm busy) because I do get enjoyment out of it and if someone in BL told me to stop interacting with them, I'd just tell them to shove it, but I've not had that problem.  Many of the lifers that I've talked to seemed to have enjoyed those interactions, but there have been quite a few that would not do so because they were worried they'd be punished for it (the fun ones do it anyways in creative ways).  Just because the laws are not written down though doesn't mean that they are not enforced in some manner.

Riluo

I will emote at lifers all the time, I back chat in tells to them and give them a gentle polite nudge to keep my ego in check and to convey the "I am evil and will use you to further my desires" rp. Otherwise I will happily stand there and chat without malice. Yet like I said, I use the occasional nasty comment about bow legged Enoiran children and Lumi's always seeming to be in the same room! But it is all fun and done with respect.

Daskalos

So you  openly insult them and then wonder why no one wants to RP? I mean, if Enorian had a history of raping their children, as you seem to insinuate, then I guess it makes sense, but all that does is say 'I'm not here to have an intelligent conversation, I'm here to throw out unbased jabs for the sake of it'. Yes, I realize the irony of that statement coming from me, but still - call them cattle, food, whatever, something that says YOU ARE A VAMPIRE. Calling someone rapists? That's just... wrong. 

Riluo

I am not sure of your history or the things that occurred in your lifetime, so if you are offended I apologise. However it is a joke and instead of jumping to conclusions, take a breath, count to ten. Now that aside I think you took this a little too personally, and perhaps my humour is not to your taste, but I know that in the 11 years of playing  here, not one person has taken a joke so much to heart! Perhaps the message was not received on your part, or I conveyed it wrongly and that is understandable given the context. Nevertheless, I encourage you to address the matter further if you think it will be off benefit to you.

 

So again apologies if you feel offended and I happy to speak to you in private if you so wish.

Hadoryu

I don't get Daskalos' outrage either. Interact in whatever way makes sense to you. Insulting your enemies certainly makes sense to me.

Anyway, Hado slept around with baddies. Here's what, it only ever helped in his machinations and his agenda was always ultimately taking down the undead. I'm pretty sure if I wasn't valuable enough to my orgs, I wouldn't have gotten away with half the crap I pulled.

It comes down to trust is all. If you need to enforce association laws to keep people loyal to the cause, you're missing the forrest for the trees. Association laws being enforced never made anyone want to stay with their organization more. And it doesn't matter if you have the laws written down or not - if you feel you need to regulate the behavior of your orgmembers when it comes to their interaction with enemies, you don't trust them to begin with.

Daskalos

But there -are- no  association laws. Login sometime, Hadoryu, and you'll see that. You're painting the life side with a paintbrush that hasn't been seen in at -least- 3 RL years, if not longer. Sure, we're not going to encourage our people to go become best friends with the  enemy, but I can't think of anytime anyone was punished for cross faction  RP, unless that RP presented a threat to the city, such as when Moirean (who, I believe, as an Enorian Minister at the time) got engaged to a Bloodlochian in Tralendar.

I'm annoyed because people keep holding something against the current players in Enorian that a lot of us -sought- and -worked- to remove. It's like constantly blaming the current President for the wars started by the last one. As  for the comments, I just find rapist jokes to be distasteful. Rape is a very sensitive subject for a lot of people, and making jokes about it leads to the chance that you end up opening up a wound for someone OOC without even knowing it. It's just one of those lines I don't think you should cross without both sides consenting ahead of time. There are more creative ways to insult someone.

Nalor

Daskalos said:

...who even has Association laws? Has anyone actually, you know, found an organization that still enforces anything of the sort? If you want to gripe about 'lifer' laws, why not make sure that the laws you're griping about still exist?

@Daskalos not 'association law' but Daru don't allow Azudims .... which by all aspects is DUMB its like not allowing mhun's

Moirean

A lifer guild is the one who tried to force one of my Carnifex to quit class as the only "acceptable" solution to prevent a lifer she was involved with from being ejected and losing lessons, a situation the lifer guild created by repeatedly spying on their own guildmates.

A lifer city is the one who has citizens who threaten PK simply for entering their city while unenemied.

A lifer city is the one who enemies everyone simply because they are Spirean, without even a single chance for interaction first.

You may not see it, but these things do happen. It's frustrating because you can have tense and engaging roleplay about being enemies and it makes that enemy role more than just killing each other at lessers (which is a fight over resources and not even ideology). 

Haven's example about Daingean really was spot on. I sent him a letter I spent quite a bit of time on to try to reconcile, which I thought might open the door to some hostile and tense RP, but he told me that he fed it to a humgii. Without even opening it. Similar situations have happened with other lifers - I'll come in and try to emote at them, and I'll see my head ping a ton so it's pretty clear that my presence is being discussed and the person will say "My guild says I have to go" or they will just run out. It could just be me that they don't want to interact with (I guess I can be kinda a bitch), but it kinda bums me out, as you don't have to only just PK people to be their enemy.

Areka

I would love for suggestions for how Enorian to handle things with cross-faction RP that crosses the line of "enemies meeting to enemy at each other be it in discussion or fighting" to "let's get married or boff" without losing its organizational roleplay-stance integrity. The issue here sounds more to be the polarity of the game and the losing battle of the org that has a moral stance on things, than anything else (other than people getting on their high horses to flaunt their orgs' lack of concern about things). 

So - what would you have had a morally stringent organization do when their members are sexin' up enemies? If you don't like the current limited approaches, offer some new ones other than getting high and mighty about how YOUR orgs don't have these moral qualms. 

Edit: To clarify - the current conversation isn't particularly helpful, as very few solutions (other than in clear areas where you can still interact and maintain enemyness flavour which shouldn't be an issue as is) have been offered as to how to maintain organization integrity ("These things are bad and unforgiveable until you give them up, we have zealots and can't/won't compromise our ideals") with balancing those who stray outside of their archetypal foundation (zealots, knights, priests/lums, etc) or look for roleplay that wouldn't be acceptable to the org. Or, how do you make getting married to enemies acceptable? 

Phoenecia

The major issue tends to be that Enorian in particular comes off as super zealous and strict when it comes to anything remotely related to its enemies. As it is, some people STILL receive flack for being multiclassed as Syssin, and there are STILL people in the city that talk about how awful and evil Syssin abilities are despite the class being neutral, and that being sneaky and stuff has no place. On the life side, you only have a handful of choices. Aside from the more extreme end of the scale in Enorian, the only option for city orgs is Duiran, which while is more moderate, comes off as really 'rawr, forestal, feral, for the wilds'.

Solaria

Nalor said:

Daskalos said:

...who even has Association laws? Has anyone actually, you know, found an organization that still enforces anything of the sort? If you want to gripe about 'lifer' laws, why not make sure that the laws you're griping about still exist?

@Daskalos not 'association law' but Daru don't allow Azudims .... which by all aspects is DUMB its like not allowing mhun's

Actually, it's not as far-fetched as you might think. This is because, when they were introduced, the RP made it seem that Azudim were dark-aligned and Yeleni were spirit-aligned. The Yeleni also say in their help file that they 'preserve and protect life', where as the Azudim are the opposing force. If the Daru are for life and the protection of it, then they can definitely not want the opposing force in their ranks. Now, the general RP of the races has changed over the years since the races originally came out - because of mechanics and people side-hopping - so this might seem a little odd. However, it's definitely not far-fetched. 

Daskalos

Moirean said:

A lifer guild is the one who tried to force one of my Carnifex to quit class as the only "acceptable" solution to prevent a lifer she was involved with from being ejected and losing lessons, a situation the lifer guild created by repeatedly spying on their own guildmates.

Dunno about this, but I'd wager that's more of leadership thing... once you're established, you pretty much can do whatever you want.

A lifer city is the one who has citizens who threaten PK simply for entering their city while unenemied.

Probably because we tend to enemy everyone from the other side, much the same as Bloodloch does.

A lifer city is the one who enemies everyone simply because they are Spirean, without even a single chance for interaction first.

Blame Bloodloch and raids.  We've been raided so many times by random newbies serving as portal points we became proactive instead of reactive. Furthermore, Bloodloch carries out the exact same policy except in regard to lifers and I don't see you throwing a fit over  them. Why are we being singled out?

You may not see it, but these things do happen. It's frustrating because you can have tense and engaging roleplay about being enemies and it makes that enemy role more than just killing each other at lessers (which is a fight over resources and not even ideology). 

Haven's example about Daingean really was spot on. I sent him a letter I spent quite a bit of time on to try to reconcile, which I thought might open the door to some hostile and tense RP, but he told me that he fed it to a humgii. Without even opening it. Similar situations have happened with other lifers - I'll come in and try to emote at them, and I'll see my head ping a ton so it's pretty clear that my presence is being discussed and the person will say "My guild says I have to go" or they will just run out. It could just be me that they don't want to interact with (I guess I can be kinda a bitch), but it kinda bums me out, as you don't have to only just PK people to be their enemy.

While I've never told a novice not to interact with you, I do know that if I see one I'm  going to be interested in what's going on, simply in the event that you're building a case to steal said novice. It's a commodity fight all of it's own.

Moirean

I'm not throwing a fit. Nor am I prancing around on a high horse. My line about Spinesreach was a (apparently misunderstood) joke about her typoing borders as boarders. Hence apartment lobbies.

I AGREED that lifer orgs have a harder time of things. I played a lifer for long enough. I know how it can be. I'm not singling Enorian/lifers out. I was just pointing out that, counter to your claims, there are still restrictions there. 

I suspect that, bleak as this may sound, there is probably always going to be an unfair setup. As long as stuff is based on ideals and morals and etc, darkies will always have an easier time of it, as our morals are negotiable by nature, whereas being a "good guy" tends to mean you are far more bound by what you can do without becoming the thing you are fighting against (which is what a lot of people accused Hadoryu of when he banged Elene).

Neithan

Phoenecia said:

The major issue tends to be that Enorian in particular comes off as super zealous and strict when it comes to anything remotely related to its enemies. As it is, some people STILL receive flack for being multiclassed as Syssin, and there are STILL people in the city that talk about how awful and evil Syssin abilities are despite the class being neutral, and that being sneaky and stuff has no place. On the life side, you only have a handful of choices. Aside from the more extreme end of the scale in Enorian, the only option for city orgs is Duiran, which while is more moderate, comes off as really 'rawr, forestal, feral, for the wilds'.

Pretty sure we've discussed this about a hundred million times.

The reason that you're going to see the zealous characters flock to Enorian is because they have a class called ZEALOT natural to their city. The city is tagged as the 'Beacon of Light' and filled with guilds that are, thematically, all about fire and faith and rawr. This isn't going to change without destroying the very fabric of what Enorian is. That said, the group of uber zealot characters is very small and generally confined to a single guild these days (Ironically, the guild who's native class is Zealot. Who woulda guessed?)

The reason that you have people against the idea of Enorianite Syssin is because they can tag the class a 'neutral' all they like. So long as it has blatant ties to Artifice/Severn, stuff like "shadow balance" and an ability that helps you regen inside of Spinesreach (a very Shadow tethered city). There's also the roleplaying angle of it. Going to use my own character for example here, because he's one of them darn crazy zealots: He doesn't believe that beings who serve the Light have any reason to hide. You should stand in the open, declare proudly what you stand for and stand for it. No sneaking. No lying. No trickery. It isn't unfair of me to play him that way, it isn't hurting the game. Stop harping about it.

Moirean said:

A lifer guild is the one who tried to force one of my Carnifex to quit class as the only "acceptable" solution to prevent a lifer she was involved with from being ejected and losing lessons, a situation the lifer guild created by repeatedly spying on their own guildmates.

I know lesson loss sucks and all, but this IS a roleplaying game. There are consequences to sleeping with/getting romantically entangled with the enemy.

Haven's example about Daingean really was spot on. I sent him a letter I spent quite a bit of time on to try to reconcile, which I thought might open the door to some hostile and tense RP, but he told me that he fed it to a humgii. Without even opening it. Similar situations have happened with other lifers - I'll come in and try to emote at them, and I'll see my head ping a ton so it's pretty clear that my presence is being discussed and the person will say "My guild says I have to go" or they will just run out. It could just be me that they don't want to interact with (I guess I can be kinda a bitch), but it kinda bums me out, as you don't have to only just PK people to be their enemy.

I don't know about those other people, though I suspect it's because you're a high profile enemy PKer so they avoid you. But does it REALLY surprise anyone than Daingean, of all people, refused to read a letter sent to him by a necromancer/Carnithing? The dude is so zealot his pupils are made of fire. He's not the norm for Enorian. He never has been. He never will be.


I was going to go through the posts and keep responding, but good gods, guys. It isn't limited to one side. It isn't entire organizations forbidding things. It isn't bullying. It isn't unfair. It's roleplaying (whether you like it/think it's good roleplaying or not is another story). But! If you guys can rp being ridiculously epic crocogator men, savage rangers, or Paladins that sleep with Vampires, Daingean (and company) can roleplay being a person who sees the world as entirely black and white, with no middle ground.

Jensen

I just prefer to earn my enemy statuses instead of getting one on suspicion.  All that does is make me sign up for raids to give merit to the claim.

On another note, wanting cross-factional RP is not the same as wanting to hold hands, boff, and be bff's.  It gives opportunity for new conflicts and deeper meaning behind actions.  At the moment I hardly want to PK because I don't really enjoy doing it for no reason.  Opening up cross factional RP could stimulate tensions, create unique opportunities to rp as a nemesis, and open doors for both sides to corrupt/convert.  All in all it would be more interesting than they = enemy, kill or do not engage.

Daskalos

Phoenecia said:

The major issue tends to be that Enorian in particular comes off as super zealous and strict when it comes to anything remotely related to its enemies. As it is, some people STILL receive flack for being multiclassed as Syssin, and there are STILL people in the city that talk about how awful and evil Syssin abilities are despite the class being neutral, and that being sneaky and stuff has no place. On the life side, you only have a handful of choices. Aside from the more extreme end of the scale in Enorian, the only option for city orgs is Duiran, which while is more moderate, comes off as really 'rawr, forestal, feral, for the wilds'.

Of note, the city of Enorian has no problem with Syssin. That being said, the city is comprised of numerous guilds, including one that doesn't allow Syssin class, so it's only natural that you're going to receive some friction. However, you are singularly responsible for a lot of the own angst you bring on yourself, given your history of spying on citymates and guildmates, even after being told to stop. A lot of the issues you face are not about the Syssin skills, but how you, personally, have chosen to wield them in the past.

Moirean

@neithan - the lifer guild was demanding that my CARNIFEX guildmate not only quit the Carnis but also quit class (losing 50% of lessons), so the lifer wouldn't be ejected. That is simply excessive and basically bludgeoning players with mechanics for roleplay choices. 

There are ways to handle things like this IC, just like people can have tense conflict outside of just PK situations. I don't see how completely prohibiting interaction can be anything but stifling or bad for engagement in the game and overall conflict. If there is absolutely no desire to even acknowledge the other side exists, what are you getting out of the game? I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just genuinely curious.

Neithan

You're perfectly capable of enjoying the game without all the drama that comes from dealing with the enemy on a regular basis. Especially if you're Enorianite, there's more drama in Enorian than there are ants in an ant hill. Seriously. And yes, I'm aware of what happened, I'm a member of said lifer guild. A secretary, actually. We never prohibited interaction with the other team, not when I was GM of Templar, we don't do it now in the Sentaari. Even the Daru don't do it. Certain characters simply have no interest in dealing with the other team beyond the occasional stabbing - again. This isn't hurting the game, I don't see why people constantly feel the need to unicorn about it.