Aetolian Economics

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  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 218 ✭✭✭
    @Satomi Iirc... when we had a previous town hall (Not sure if it was one with Tiur or with Razmael), but they did say that there is a new comm system that is ready, however they are waiting until all the cities use up their comms. 

    Problem with this idea is that no city will outright use all their comms because of "what if" scenarios. 
    - What if we're the only city who finishes off their comms but no one else does?
    - What if the admins don't really have a replacement comm system ready?
    - What if people get angry and leave my city because we're out of comms?

    Just to name a few off the top of my head. Do I think the cities will use all their comms to see if there truly is a new comm system ready? Absolutely not. In reality, the only way to fix the current comm system is to do what happened during the new curing system. Just have some global event that unicorns the unicorns out of the commodities and then release the new system. 

    Just my 2 cents.

    Re: pill usage and cost. Arena testing would be a good idea. Another idea if you're a hunter... set your pull curing to minimal and run off of tree/focus curing, along with 10% hp anabiotic curing/35% mana anabiotic curing. I've had to alter how I cure and what i use because of how expensive pills are. Just food for thought.

    TeaniEvalyne
  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 235
    edited March 26
    Actually the pill usage fairly differs among different types so the total cost of having a workable stash is not that high. For example, no one in their right minds would waste ash or ice on making Thanatonin because there are so many skills which will give you Deathsight the pill itself becomes obsolete fast. Doing it with manual labor is more profitable. On the other hand anabiotic will always be in demand, though for PvE usage as it was pointed out, one can reduce the frequency of swallowing them. Of course as a Herbalist my percentage will be far higher then the suggested.

    Also making a stash by effort is more then possible at the absence of a large scale conflict. It could be even incentivized with contracts among players. You could keep your ash or ice for the critical pills that you use frequently and for emergencies while acquiring other types by normal means.

    Back in cities, I would generally offer them for no cost to novices without even breaking a sweat. While I have not been harvesting for a very long time, I still do not feel the necessity of spending ash and ice, but that is partly due to limiting the unnecessary usage. Mass consumption is another beast of course, but then tradeskills are supposed to be valuable when their practitioners do not supply the demand, yes? Otherwise everything would be back to dirt cheap and there would be no tangible profit from gathering herbs.

    Also, I would be possibly dismayed if suddenly my whole reserves becomes worthless due to some global event...kinda like having your stash of gold turning into lead overnight.
    EvalyneShachalai
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭
    edited March 27
    @Istela 17 pills, 1 ash = 200, 10 ash = 2000. 170 ash at best to fill an entire cache with 2000 of every pill.

    I have that math because making each pill without ash = 5 pills. 1 Ash multiplies that number by 40. End result is 200 pills.

    Istela
  • VyxsisVyxsis VyxsisMember Posts: 168 ✭✭✭
    @Trikal get aided to culture. change arena fee to 0. start bloodbath. test for 30 minutes. get kicked out. repeat. remember to reset arena fee to w/e your city's standard is when done. kablam!
    Indoran'i is back baby. It's good again. Awoouu (wolf Howl)
    An Atzob cultist says, "Is a shamatato as tasty as a potato?"
    (Tells): From afar, Mephistoles hisses harshly to you, "Hey baby, show me your ovipositor?"
    (Research): Cariv says, "Itsa me, Buggio."
    Oofa
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭
    @Rhyot Just so you know, there is one city that is guaranteed to run out first. I mean, why else would I be fighting so hard? :P

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 235
    edited March 27
    Satomi said:

    @Istela 17 pills, 1 ash = 200, 10 ash = 2000. 170 ash at best to fill an entire cache with 2000 of every pill.

    I have that math because making each pill without ash = 5 pills. 1 Ash multiplies that number by 40. End result is 200 pills.

    Unless they changed it, I remember the system creates pills in batches of 5. So without ash you get 1:1 ratio from your creations. With ash you get 1:40 ratio. So instead of 5 pills you create 200 pills for one tick consuming 5 x (pill ingredients + 1 ash/ice)

    I think one of the good steps would be to be able to make higher amounts of pills without ash/ice per tick. It makes it feel rather daunting to create pills without ash and ice, timewise. 5 is a very low number for a tick in my opinion.
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭
    @Kalak The limiting factor is herbs. The two easiest solutions (not necessarily the right ones) are increasing the pill output without ash, like you said, or increasing the herb limit on how many herbs you can collect per day.

  • RhyotRhyot BloodlochMember Posts: 218 ✭✭✭
    So a few points....

    @Kalak You do have to understand that not everyone can augment their hunting the way I have mine. Not everyone has artifacts rolling out their unicorns or is omnitrans. What might be a 1200 hit for me, might be a 3000 hit for someone else with a bad audit. I put up my hunting changes as a means of research and understanding. Maybe some people can augment their hunting but haven't tried it yet. Idk. It's all a rough process.

    @Satomi I'm not sure how low Spinesreach comms are, but I'm sure if you spoke IC with Zenobia, she might be willing to help out. Bloodloch is their ally after all. Additionally, I think it would be more interesting if everyone was able to harvest, even if you weren't able to actually make pills. That would be the most ideal solution. That way, if say Trikal or Rhyot wanted pills, they could provide the plants themselves and then give ice/ash to the Herbalist or gold equivalent if they so chose. 

    Lastly, the current pill amount is fine. The problem relies heavily on the fact that all of the work lies solely with one person. This puts huge emphasis on the Herbalist doing nothing but harvesting for days because they are always needing to make pills. Like I said previously, if everyone could harvest plants, then this would be less of an issue as the buyers could provide their own time and plants for their own curatives. 

  • KalakKalak Member Posts: 235
    Satomi said:

    @Kalak The limiting factor is herbs. The two easiest solutions (not necessarily the right ones) are increasing the pill output without ash, like you said, or increasing the herb limit on how many herbs you can collect per day.

    Oh I was just pointing out to the misunderstanding in your math. 1 ash = 40 pills not 200. And I tested again whether I remember it correctly or not.


    prepare 1 acuity
    One by one, you lay each ingredient into the mortar and grind them into a fine, aromatic paste. At length, you lay the pestle aside, drip a measure of honey into the bowl, and roll out a pill of acuity, leaving it to harden.



    prepare 1 acuity with ashes
    One by one, you lay each ingredient into the mortar and grind them into a fine, aromatic paste. At length, you lay the pestle aside, drip a measure of honey into the bowl, and roll out a stack of 40 acuities, leaving it to harden.


    I wanted to say that instead of doing things in batches of 5, if we could do them in batches of 50-100 perhaps, ashless doing would be more bearable.

    @Rhyot If everyone harvests, then it would not make sense if they do not have Herbalism, because you know the laymen cannot understand which proper herbs to pick. And possibly picking flowers and roots should be beneath a Chaos Lord! They'd better stick to more dignified arts :3 But if we set the RP aside, I do understand that at the absence of a particular mercantile community things can be pricey, yet that is the basis of a working market. That should motivate people to encourage their citizens towards differing mercantile business. Another solution would be to find foreign contacts to supply your needs.

    @Satomi Currently there is an unused capacity...basically with a 300 cr artifact and Harvest-related racial I can either make 1050 pills a day or 700 anabiotic without ash/ice. Perhaps for critical herbs or orders I could crack my stash and satisfy needs if it comes to that. Certain types of pills will be used with far less frequency like Thanatonin, Panacea, Somnium, Steroids. Defense pills also compared to Curative pills has lesser frequency of usage overally unless you are mainly fighting against a defense stripper. So one can draw a pattern here to establish a very healthy stash for themselves.

    Regardless this is a marvellous side effect of everyone having one mercantile skillset which makes people seek each other to deal with their needs. If we make everyone fill their cache easily then we would devalue the skillset itself. Then suddenly you will need less herbalists due to gargantuan stocks everywhere. I would rather prefer to have people actively trying on solutions ICly and cooperating with each other instead of making everything abundant with Admin help. Shortages are good for business and gameplay.

    Also Guilds/Cities exist to take care of novices...I am sure they can give wages for them to not feel like they are provided a donation or pocket change. Or they can be paid by guild/city to do a task which will not involve going out to places making them use their meager wealth on pills. So with that earned coin, they can take care of their needs for future.
    Rhyot
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭
    edited March 27
    It is entirely possible that I misunderstood the pill stuff because I only ever seen Len making stacks of 200, lol. Just makes it all the worse if that is the case.

    @Rhyot Yeah, there are a few contingency plans in place. I just like to know what's up so I can pick the right ones.

  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 933 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27
    @Kalak, actually you are both right, I think-- my understanding is 1 ash will increase up to an output of 200 pills. So you can use it for increasing the output of 1 pill, but the ashes will also increase the output of components used to make up to 10 pills.

    I am an apothecary so for me I can use a goldbar to make 1 refill = 10 sips or 10 sips = 200 sips before the goldbar stops affecting the output.


    Edit: Disregard everything, I didn't read properly and responded incorrectly. Carry on!
    Post edited by Xenia on
    image
  • TeaniTeani Evening Sky SwedenMember Posts: 1,932 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Right, when rolling bulk pills with ash or ice, you increase the output from 5 per roll to 200.



    Xenia
  • IstelaIstela Member Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited March 28
    Satomi said:

    @Istela 17 pills, 1 ash = 200, 10 ash = 2000. 170 ash at best to fill an entire cache with 2000 of every pill.

    I have that math because making each pill without ash = 5 pills. 1 Ash multiplies that number by 40. End result is 200 pills.

    Satomi I make pills regularly. One ash will do I believe 15 pills. 50 ashes makes 2000 of ONE type of pill. You give me 170 ashes I will likely get hmm 3 full batches of 2000 and a partial of a fourth

    Edit Kalak was right 1 ash makes 40 pills.
  • SatomiSatomi Member Posts: 285 ✭✭✭
    eh, it only exacerbates the situation. If it takes that much more Ash to just fill a cache, then it's even worse than I would've expected, since I'd been operating on a completely different set of numbers.

  • IstelaIstela Member Posts: 26 ✭✭
    Satomi said:

    eh, it only exacerbates the situation. If it takes that much more Ash to just fill a cache, then it's even worse than I would've expected, since I'd been operating on a completely different set of numbers.

    Exactly, I make pills enough for people to know the exact number of ashes needed to get the full cache. I also just recently did this for Jeromy for a full cache
  • JensenJensen Corruption's Butcher Member Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll be upfront that I'm not up to speed with aetolian economics, but I will say that it's never been great. The only time I can recall shop owners or tradesmen earning real profit was old oldschool days of skill monopolies, dwarf race being required for smithing, and weapon stats being more important. I will also state those days were not fun. Nobody liked health vials being 1k.

    I don't really believe this game has the capacity to do well in economics. Not with how the priorities have to be. The games profit model means that any user can outbid your time and energy with an outside source. That outside source dictates the value of the items in game.

    Next with balance and fairness being in the priority chain it makes it difficult to have a system of gains and losses when rewards get removed and risks get mitigated. This is further exacerbated by conflict being treated as a zero sum game (where you can only win what the other person loses, such as territory or gold from war).

    Shifting from priorities, playerbase size makes an economy extremely difficult as your community (to which assigns the value of things by purchasing them) is very small. Imagine if you controlled 1-5% of the worlds GDP, or had the capacity to seize every readily available lump of coal in the span of an afternoon? How do you balance for that?

    And for my last point, Aetolia has an actual real world economical problem, competing in a market where some are in it for non-monetary value. In my state we have a lot of retired folk who work in crafts and trades for fun. If I make furniture to put food on my table how do I compete with someone doing it for fun? They can price whatever they choose because they're only in it for the experience, where I have budgets and goals to reach. How do you run a business against someone doing it for RP and flair? You can't, you aren't on the same metrics.

    image
    OofaEvalyne
  • OofaOofa RIMember Posts: 16
    Few dwarves made an actual profit on forging though. Reincarnation + trans forging + hammer = 700cr as I recall, and that's not including the thousands of wasted comms. I made that investment for the RP and fun, but it would have taken me ages to truly break even. This is the way it goes with shopkeeping in IRE. This isn't to say I disagree, just that it wasn't perfect in the old days either. 
  • EvalyneEvalyne A CoffinMember Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    edited March 31
    Oofa said:

    Few dwarves made an actual profit on forging though. Reincarnation + trans forging + hammer = 700cr as I recall, and that's not including the thousands of wasted comms. I made that investment for the RP and fun, but it would have taken me ages to truly break even. This is the way it goes with shopkeeping in IRE. This isn't to say I disagree, just that it wasn't perfect in the old days either. 

    I seem to recalll the hammer was considerably cheaper in the Before Times TM but I may be wrong.

    I'll tell you right now that Mykellah's hammer was something she wouldn't've gotten without the help she received to purchase it, A, because it's expensive as all get out, and B, it will never, ever return on the investment.

    Aetolia's economy is, essentially, mostly inherited from Achaea, with alterations as it grew and adapted, but well, more mutations are required before it reaches a state that it is workable. Most importantly, as @Jensen pointed out, more or less, it needs to be designed in such a way as to account for the fact that our community is considerably small and monopolies are a given without admin-controlled sources. Villages are not nearly enough.
    Istela
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