Announce #2535 Duiran

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Comments

  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think @Aishia has the biggest point here. We can talk all we want about harassment and metagaming, but if no one is filing issues when it goes on there's not much the admin can do to stop it. And if you don't want to issue the person you think is harassing you? Well, there's always the 'issue me' command.

  • FaerahFaerah Member Posts: 216 ✭✭✭✭
    Xavin said:

    I think @Aishia has the biggest point here. We can talk all we want about harassment and metagaming, but if no one is filing issues when it goes on there's not much the admin can do to stop it. And if you don't want to issue the person you think is harassing you? Well, there's always the 'issue me' command.

    I actually *have* issued for metagaming and was told by the admin via Alecto that metagaming is not actually against the rules.
    Riluo
  • SolariaSolaria Charlotte, NCMember Posts: 522 ✭✭✭✭
    Faerah said:

    Xavin said:

    I think @Aishia has the biggest point here. We can talk all we want about harassment and metagaming, but if no one is filing issues when it goes on there's not much the admin can do to stop it. And if you don't want to issue the person you think is harassing you? Well, there's always the 'issue me' command.

    I actually *have* issued for metagaming and was told by the admin via Alecto that metagaming is not actually against the rules.
    When it becomes abuse, more than just metagaming alone, it can be a serious concern to the health of the game. It never hurts to issue for suspected metagaming, especially if it could be a serious detriment to the game. It's definitely not AGAINST the rules, but other aspects of it can be (such as abuse). It's better to issue and let the admin team know what you think is going on rather than let it boil up to a point where it starts destroying an entire organization.

  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    That's where the problem lies in issuing for metagaming.

    1: It isn't against the rules, in any way. So people can, and do, go around metagaming stuff all the time. Metagaming is so apparent especially in alts that act far smarter about a specific event as if they were there.

    2: Abuse is an easily misunderstood line. Simply because you could roleplay out the fact that your character hates a certain group of people and its completely acceptable. Thing about abuse is that its hard to prove that its abuse.

    3: Even if you can prove that there is a ton of metagaming going on via pasted skype/facebook messages or whatever medium, it still wont get anywhere BECAUSE metagaming is accepted.


    No matter what you do, unless you do as Daskalos said and garter more support and do more work than those already in power, issuing WILL NOT solve your problem, no matter how much you want it to.
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    Fanico
  • SolariaSolaria Charlotte, NCMember Posts: 522 ✭✭✭✭
    Zsadist said:

    That's where the problem lies in issuing for metagaming.
    Stuff here.

    No one is saying it'll solve the problem. But, the admin team don't know what's going on at all times - it's good to let them know what is so they can step in if it is needed and they don't realize it is. It's not going to hurt anything but waste a few minutes of your time at most.

  • XandrenXandren Member Posts: 200 ✭✭✭
    Solaria said:

    Zsadist said:

    That's where the problem lies in issuing for metagaming.
    Stuff here.

    No one is saying it'll solve the problem. But, the admin team don't know what's going on at all times - it's good to let them know what is so they can step in if it is needed and they don't realize it is. It's not going to hurt anything but waste a few minutes of your time at most.
    I personally think it's more an issue of, "it's only going to waste a few minutes of your time" and more a matter of considering the emotional state and the level of "Weariness" that the person who is reporting the metagaming has. I know that if I were to issue for metagaming/abuse, I'm pretty sure I'm not in a state of mind where my patience for anything is going to be very high in amount. And if I do end up "wasting a few minutes" on doing so, only to be told that metagaming isn't against the rules (and honestly? That shocks me. It's against the rules in Achaea AND Lusternia, and even MKO's rules note it, in spite of its metagaming based toxic atmosphere), though I will point out that metagaming should be taken in levels. Metagaming knowledge of an area that you knew from a previous character, and is common knowledge for anyone who has visited the area? Probably okay and not hurting anyone. Metagaming knowledge that is NOT common, but is in fact only known by select people, such as the layout of say the Carnifex guildhall, or the Sentinel guildhall, or secrets only spoken of behind closed doors? That's definitely beyond the boundary. And supposedly the godmins DO retain logs for 3 days of all happenings in the game. Supposedly. I'm not sure if that's true. But if it is, then there should be at least some ample proof of metagaming. So while they're not ominpotent, the tools to locate proof are there. And many players (myself included) tend to log everything. I do it for different reasons, but I still make sure Mudlet logs every last detail of everything.
    The rushing sound of waves breaking upon a shore fills your mind as Slyphe imparts to you, "Meltas is a bit..special sometimes..."
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    Part of the current reason I do not interact with people is the metagaming and the impact it had, and still does not only on my characters or the orgs I run, but also on my personal feelings and desire to invest in the game. Then when issues take a week to hear back on and the reply is "deal with it in game" you tend to just suck it up and think why bother.

    It really comes down to this. There is no real rules to enforce it, nor do the admin always have time to look into it.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

    KonnornJules
  • AsaraiiAsaraii Member Posts: 366 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Riluo The admin always have time to look into issues. Their -income- depends on it. They are paid to do a job here. One of those is customer service related - handling issues. This is a business, therefore if someone being paid to do this job isn't doing it, they probably wouldn't still be getting paid.

    They have access to every single one of your commands you enter in game. Likely if they don't respond to the issue how you want, it's because of a couple things...

    1- Whatever abusive behavior you claim is happening didn't happen via the game (very well could be plotted via skype, but with no trace of it being spoken about IG? Hard to believe).

    2- It wasn't actually abusive/metagaming behavior, and you are being held responsible for your own behaviors and actions in the game.

    3- You probably had some crappy behavior to throw into the mix, making you equally guilty of causing the issue, or you very well could be the cause of the issue, you just won't accept/acknowledge you're own behavior.


    IshinDraimanFezzix
  • RiluoRiluo The DoctorMember Posts: 821 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2016
    @Antehe this sums it up pretty well, as it is either easy to spot or in some cases it can be a long drawn out passive aggressive sequence of micro events which nobody wants to filter through.

    In terms of how to tweak rules to clarify them for all parties. I honestly would not even know where to start myself if given the task. In fact the whole notion is just bleh.


    From my own perspective I was one of those metagamers myself for a few months back in January this year and whilst I was at fault I was not alone in it. The problem is that it results in a lot of angry people and like my own events with players and admin it just snowballs if it is not dealt with. In many ways it was the reason I stepped back for the last few months and only now am I slowly returning to test the water so to speak. After all it is a game and one we play to enjoy, so when it gets to the point it did with my own situation you can either step away or let it damage others peoples time as well as your own in the game.

    Abhorash says, "Ve'kahi has proved that even bastards can earn their place."

  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In regards to metagaming, we each have to make conscious decisions in how extensively we are going to discuss the actions taken IC on an OOC level. Personally, I work really hard to maintain a strict barrier between IC and OOC, because when this barrier begins to break, I know I have been guilty of taking things far too seriously. Especially when I perceive myself on the losing end-- I am a rather poor loser.

    While I have not been a leadership position of an org for an extensively long time, I have found myself facing conflicts which at times felt as though were being planned and plotted entirely OOCly. Whether or not this was true was irrelevant because ultimately I needed to remember to be responsible for my IC interactions and how I would use whatever came my way to shape the story of my character or organization. I've since then started to realize those of us in leadership positions are responsible for ushering in a culture of handling issues IC, regardless of whatever animosity persists between players.

    I don't know the intimate details of what went on in Duiran, but I think in order to address metagaming problems, we should look more towards how we as players can change how those things play out, rather than towards the Admin on how to punish it. This is not to say it should not be punished, and more to suggest the process of a witch hunt is just as bad as the metagaming itself.
    image
    RasaniEmelleJulesJami
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    I agree with @Xenia . As much as it's the job of Admin to handle issues brought to their attention, it's up to Org leaders to be able to handle the issues IC and fairly, even if you don't like everyone you have to deal with. The more we have Org leaders who are willing and able to do this, the faster this cycle of metagaming impacting orgs on a really huge level will die out. I haven't been an org leader long at ALL, but it's one of the first things I learned.

    And honestly, if you see abuse, even if it's not toward you? Maybe talk to an admin. New players may not know what's worth an issue or not and it's that nasty bystander situation: If you don't act because you expect someone else to, you can't be sure ANYONE will act.
  • JulesJules Member Posts: 55 ✭✭
    edited May 2016
    Org leaders can sometimes only do so much, or rather should only do so much. Smart bullies will not do crappy things in front of any sort of decent org leader, because it will be really clear that that org leader wouldn't tolerate such. At best it takes them a bit to slip up in a way that lets you say "okay, yeah, this is so definitely valid", and org leaders can't go check game logs. I am not saying do nothing, but I think it would be very easy to overstep what an org leader actually should be doing in any situation that isn't incredibly blatant.

    EDIT: an example of an appropriate response, al la what I am guessing Xenia might do at times, and which I have seen in other orgs is "okay, you kids are in time out and can't touch each other or I will pull this car over".
    RasaniXeniaJami
  • XeniaXenia Member Posts: 885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    EDIT: an example of an appropriate response, al la what I am guessing Xenia might do at times, and which I have seen in other orgs is "okay, you kids are in time out and can't touch each other or I will pull this car over".
    Well, there is certainly some of that, but I'm talking about even before it gets to this point. You see the signs, perhaps are even informed on the issue in some form, and essentially have the opportunity to act as a leader and avoid the conflict by steering the entire situation. Perhaps more on par with the parent whose children are getting hungry, and forgot to fit food into the schedule. They ask do you want to eat X or Y rather than, what do you want to eat?
    image
  • AniseAnise Member Posts: 15
    I know I'm uber late to the party. But I'm calling shenanigans on the admin. When this behavior was and is still exhibited in Bloodloch, the excuse was always made that it was their role play to do the things they did. Yet somehow it's different because it's Duiran? 
  • RasharRashar Member Posts: 1,609 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wat.
  • ZsadistZsadist Member Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭
    Anise said:

    I know I'm uber late to the party. But I'm calling shenanigans on the admin. When this behavior was and is still exhibited in Bloodloch, the excuse was always made that it was their role play to do the things they did. Yet somehow it's different because it's Duiran? 

    As a Bloodlochian, I have to say that your comment is completely incorrect @Anise. Yes, there is some metagaming, but that happens no matter where you go. The toxicity level of Bloodloch is practically at 0. Reason being, the Council is quite quiet and the entire city barely ever talks. When we do talk, its usually to pick so everyone can pick on someone (typically Zsadist) or greetings in general.

    The last serious conversation that was on it that ruffled some feathers was about a month ago when Akara wanted to start another war with Spinesreach, just because she was bored.

    The levels that it has reached in Duiran is NOWHERE near anything I can even BEGIN to describe. I know only face value of what a large handful of people have contacted me about it, but trust me when I say the unicorns that Duiran is facing, Bloodloch does not face it.

    However, I will appease you. What sort of behavior do you believe exists in Bloodloch??
    (Oasis): Benedicto says, "There was like 0.5 seconds between "Oh hey, they're in area. That was quick." and "OMFG THEY'RE IN THE AREA STAHP STAHP!""


    SolariaArbre
  • SaritaSarita The Pillars of the EarthMember, Guildmaster Posts: 675 ✭✭✭✭
    I could possibly see something about Bloodloch metagaming being said about the Caboose era, maybe, but that was a different set of producers/admin, not to mention almost entirely different players.
    SolariaXavin
  • AlexinaAlexina the Haunted Soul Member Posts: 851 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Someone did a bad thing in the past, so clearly we should allow it now too.
    image
  • DraimanDraiman Dr. Drai Member Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭✭✭
    He really is.
    "You ever been divided by zero?" Nia asks you with a squint.



    AsaraiiIlyon
  • RasaniRasani Member Posts: 119 ✭✭✭
    I mean, I'm not Bloodloch so normally I'd say "I can't say", but that's just it. EVERYONE in the game knows about how bad Duiran has gotten. Even people who AREN'T Duiran, that speaks volumes, I think, about how the same thing isn't even kind of happening in Bloodloch.
    KerrynZsadistXavinSolaria
  • XavinXavin Member Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It probably doesn't help that quite a few people have aired Duiran's dirty laundry over public clans and such, or all the chatter that goes on via word-of-mouth. That said, you don't have admin stepping in and completely changing the government system for a single org without there being some unprecedented levels of dickery going on that is seriously endangering the health of the game as a whole.

    SolariaTeaniAniseZsadist
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